Employment advice required - stepson awaiting dismissal.
Discussion
A bit of advice from anyone "in the know"...
Stepson has a part time job at a well known high street retailer, worked hard for past 2 years, gone in sick, worked as many shifts given etc. Now he's a bit goofy and slightly immature for his age, but a good honest lad. For some reason the manageress has taken a dislike to him, actually that's wrong she dislikes everyone and is basically a bit wierd (no life, cats instead of kids, a bully, ruthlessly ambitious, thinks work is everything and makes everyone's life hard).
The story - he finishes his shift 10 mins late, grabs some pic'n'mix as he's going to the cinema, and in the queue absentmindedly chucks a chocolate covered raisin in his gob. Manageress sees him chewing, asks if he's eaten a sweet, he says yes (that's how simple he is), she asks him if he knows it's theft, next thing he's suspended with pay, and a letter arrives within 7 days referring him to a disciplinary hearing on Monday for "consuming produce on the premises". As he paid extra for the missing raisin at the till this shows how devious she is as theft wouldn't stick as he had not left the store.
Now the fact this has been done "by the book" leads me to think he will get the bullet, as if they wanted to "hurt" him they would have suspended him WITHOUT pay. He was asked to give a statement yesterday, and wasn't given the opportunity to have anyone present.
Now this career obsessed b
h is leaving next week, and I reckon she wants to go out with a bang, or at least send a message to her next store ("ooh watch out, she sacked someone for eating a raisin at her last place you know" etc). Sad thing is all the things he has had to put up with (unloading lorries in the snow with no bodywarmer supplied or personal coat allowed, lifting pallets and putting his back out etc) are all unrecorded and history. Of course he should have told us all last Monday, but as said he's a harmless soul and just sticks his head in the sand. Is there any use in him compling, say, a list of all the fubars that go on in the store as defence (regular minor shoplifters tolerated etc) or is he on a loser?? I feel really bad for him as he has just bought his first car and generally starting to "grow up" and spread his wings a bit (I'm certain the bh doesn't like that), and this means he won't even get a decent reference.
Stepson has a part time job at a well known high street retailer, worked hard for past 2 years, gone in sick, worked as many shifts given etc. Now he's a bit goofy and slightly immature for his age, but a good honest lad. For some reason the manageress has taken a dislike to him, actually that's wrong she dislikes everyone and is basically a bit wierd (no life, cats instead of kids, a bully, ruthlessly ambitious, thinks work is everything and makes everyone's life hard).
The story - he finishes his shift 10 mins late, grabs some pic'n'mix as he's going to the cinema, and in the queue absentmindedly chucks a chocolate covered raisin in his gob. Manageress sees him chewing, asks if he's eaten a sweet, he says yes (that's how simple he is), she asks him if he knows it's theft, next thing he's suspended with pay, and a letter arrives within 7 days referring him to a disciplinary hearing on Monday for "consuming produce on the premises". As he paid extra for the missing raisin at the till this shows how devious she is as theft wouldn't stick as he had not left the store.
Now the fact this has been done "by the book" leads me to think he will get the bullet, as if they wanted to "hurt" him they would have suspended him WITHOUT pay. He was asked to give a statement yesterday, and wasn't given the opportunity to have anyone present.
Now this career obsessed b
h is leaving next week, and I reckon she wants to go out with a bang, or at least send a message to her next store ("ooh watch out, she sacked someone for eating a raisin at her last place you know" etc). Sad thing is all the things he has had to put up with (unloading lorries in the snow with no bodywarmer supplied or personal coat allowed, lifting pallets and putting his back out etc) are all unrecorded and history. Of course he should have told us all last Monday, but as said he's a harmless soul and just sticks his head in the sand. Is there any use in him compling, say, a list of all the fubars that go on in the store as defence (regular minor shoplifters tolerated etc) or is he on a loser?? I feel really bad for him as he has just bought his first car and generally starting to "grow up" and spread his wings a bit (I'm certain the bh doesn't like that), and this means he won't even get a decent reference.Have a look at this thread in the business forum, there's a few clues here.
http://pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
http://pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
TheCarpetCleaner said:
Its a retail job
Just get another one.
If it's that bad - tell him to move.
Not so easy if you got the push for breaking the rules and eating stock (which they hate).Just get another one.
If it's that bad - tell him to move.
I would try and drag it out a bit until she has someone else to bully in her new job. She might not want to bother with him once she is trampling new people.
Who wil deal with the discipline?
Jasandjules said:
Have they provided him with all the evidence? It is not theft though because he hadn't left the store, however she may be guilty of libel and slander!
Theft, to permanently deprive the rightful owner ofI suspect that once its been eaten you've permanently deprived the owner of it.
However a decent employment lawyer will make mincemeat of an attempted dismissal for eating a single chocolate covered raisin.
Sounds like the manager is a bit of an idiot.
Unfortunately, what your stepson did was technically theft, and this is usually classed as a summary dismissal punishment. He did not have the right to be accompanied at the meeting, as it would have been the investigatory meeting. However, he does have the right to be accompanied at the disciplinary by either a trade union official, or a fellow employee.
My advice would be to make sure he states his previous good record and enthusiastic attitude to the job at the discipline and he makes it clear that the eating of the single raisen was a momentary oversight at the end of a long working day. It is not something he makes a habit of.
If they dismiss him, it will be summary dismissal with no notice. He should appeal against it. You cannot go to a tribunal unless you appeal (even if you know you have no hope of overturning the decision)
Hopefully he will get away with a warning.
Unfortunately, what your stepson did was technically theft, and this is usually classed as a summary dismissal punishment. He did not have the right to be accompanied at the meeting, as it would have been the investigatory meeting. However, he does have the right to be accompanied at the disciplinary by either a trade union official, or a fellow employee.
My advice would be to make sure he states his previous good record and enthusiastic attitude to the job at the discipline and he makes it clear that the eating of the single raisen was a momentary oversight at the end of a long working day. It is not something he makes a habit of.
If they dismiss him, it will be summary dismissal with no notice. He should appeal against it. You cannot go to a tribunal unless you appeal (even if you know you have no hope of overturning the decision)
Hopefully he will get away with a warning.
Assuming he's not wanting a career out of this place, if I were in his shoes I'd tell the to go fk themselves for something so petty
If he hadnt paid for the whatever he's supposed to have stolen then it's a bit different, but it's hardly worth getting a warning over.
If he does come through with a warning it sounds as though Mad Evil bh wont give him an easy life from then on anyway
k themselves for something so pettyIf he hadnt paid for the whatever he's supposed to have stolen then it's a bit different, but it's hardly worth getting a warning over.
If he does come through with a warning it sounds as though Mad Evil b
h wont give him an easy life from then on anywayLooseCannon said:
Now the fact this has been done "by the book" leads me to think he will get the bullet, as if they wanted to "hurt" him they would have suspended him WITHOUT pay. He was asked to give a statement yesterday, and wasn't given the opportunity to have anyone present.
No, suspension with pay is the correct thing to do prior to a disciplinary hearing.First of all he hasn't been accused of theft so let's ignore that. He's been accused of consuming produce on the premises. So the first thing to check is whether that is actually an offence, is there a company handbook or anything that sets out such rules?
The next point is that, whilst he did eat the raisin, he was at the end of his shift so can claim that he thought he was in his own time (and maybe he was) so not subject to that rule (if it exists).
Finally remember that this is a disciplinary hearing, there are various outcomes including verbal or written warnings. In order to dismiss he needs to be guilty of gross misconduct, eating a raisin after his shift has ended is hardly that and so he has a case for unfair dismissal if they do dismiss.
The way to handle it is to be calm, polite and logical. Don't widen it to other issues, just make it clear that, yes, he ate the raisin, no, he didn't realise it was an offence. He's sorry he did it and won't do it again. He can have a union representative or a work colleague with him in the hearing.
Agree with the last but one comment - i'd file a complain of harrassment [make up some equally unreasonable reason .. there must be something he can complain about] with HR against said manager and resign / constructive dismissal immediately [put yourself on gardening leave]. That way you get to leave on your terms; they won't chase you over a f8cking raisin.
Edited by fido on Saturday 16th August 17:35
As a retail manager, I can tell you that this kind of thing is taken *very* seriously - so-called 'grazing' is a major issue for food retailers / general retailers who sell food products - often costing the company more per year than customer theft.
I have, over the years, spent a huge amount of time and effort in catching, investigating and dismissing 'grazers'.
You can also take it as read that said manager has the full backing and support of the company HR department - store managers are (generally) not allowed to start disciplinary procedures without first consulting an HR expert.
Given that he's already admitted consuming said item, he's in a bit of a dodgy position - unless he wants to go in and deny his admission, hoping there are no witnesses or CCTV evidence.
However, I would ensure that he is allowed to see all evidence, plus ensure he takes a responsible, older, colleague with him to the meeting to ensure the company are fair in their actions.
Ultimately, the best he can hope for is to negotiate resignation without an adverse reference.
This kind of consumption is often seen as a 'perk' of the job by staff, but it's something that managers will come down on very heavily, despite how minor it may first appear.
I have, over the years, spent a huge amount of time and effort in catching, investigating and dismissing 'grazers'.
You can also take it as read that said manager has the full backing and support of the company HR department - store managers are (generally) not allowed to start disciplinary procedures without first consulting an HR expert.
Given that he's already admitted consuming said item, he's in a bit of a dodgy position - unless he wants to go in and deny his admission, hoping there are no witnesses or CCTV evidence.
However, I would ensure that he is allowed to see all evidence, plus ensure he takes a responsible, older, colleague with him to the meeting to ensure the company are fair in their actions.
Ultimately, the best he can hope for is to negotiate resignation without an adverse reference.
This kind of consumption is often seen as a 'perk' of the job by staff, but it's something that managers will come down on very heavily, despite how minor it may first appear.
Alfa_75_Steve said:
Ultimately, the best he can hope for is to negotiate resignation without an adverse reference.
No, I'm sorry, but that is wrong. If his shift was complete and if he was standing in the queue to buy the item and if they haven't accused him of theft then dismissing him would be very dodgy from a legal perspective. It really doesn't matter how seriously the company takes it, they are still bound by the law and dismissing an employee for this when he was in his own time and standing in line to pay for the item is going to be hard to get to stand up at tribunal. If it was in his working time and if he'd just taken the item and ate it it would be a different story.siscar said:
Alfa_75_Steve said:
Ultimately, the best he can hope for is to negotiate resignation without an adverse reference.
No, I'm sorry, but that is wrong. If his shift was complete and if he was standing in the queue to buy the item and if they haven't accused him of theft then dismissing him would be very dodgy from a legal perspective. It really doesn't matter how seriously the company takes it, they are still bound by the law and dismissing an employee for this when he was in his own time and standing in line to pay for the item is going to be hard to get to stand up at tribunal. If it was in his working time and if he'd just taken the item and ate it it would be a different story.Without knowing all the history, it's highly likely the company have an issue with staff grazing and have run with this as an example of what happens if you're caught.
We also don't know the company staff purchase procedures, or signing in / out procedures - what exactly is written on the letter? - 'consuming produce on the premises' is an odd one, I'd personally have gone with breach of staff purchase procedures, as it's much more likely to get a successful dismissal.
I can't imagine it being a very nice place to return to work having escaped a dismissal on a dubious technicality.
Whilst I appreciate why many will think this is a petty and insignificant issue - ultimately, he has essentially stolen from the company - I'd be very interested to know how he paid for said raisin, given that Pick and Mix is charged by weight.
It is definatly worth compiling a defence case if he enjoys the job and wants to keep it. I was in a similar situation when I had a part time retail job whilst doing my A-Levels. I worked with the store managers younger brother who thought he could get away with doing what he wanted (i.e. doing nothing at all). One shift whilst I was working away and he was doing sweet F.A. he asked me to do one of his jobs to which I told him where to go in a 'slightly' impolite manor 
He complained to his brother - the store manager and he issued a disiplinary hearing with HR a few week or so after the incident. It was obvious that the manager wanted to get rid of me and he thought he would be fairly easy as I was just a young part timer who wasn't going to put up much of a fight.
I took some advice from a union representative and made a list of all the errors the manager had made in the handling of the incident/disiplinary and read them out to the HR guys. The store managers face was a picture as it threatened his job and of course I kept mine with only a verbal warning. What came with that was alot more respect from the store manager from then on to the point where I could get away with murder and he wouldn't bat an eyelid
.
He complained to his brother - the store manager and he issued a disiplinary hearing with HR a few week or so after the incident. It was obvious that the manager wanted to get rid of me and he thought he would be fairly easy as I was just a young part timer who wasn't going to put up much of a fight.
I took some advice from a union representative and made a list of all the errors the manager had made in the handling of the incident/disiplinary and read them out to the HR guys. The store managers face was a picture as it threatened his job and of course I kept mine with only a verbal warning. What came with that was alot more respect from the store manager from then on to the point where I could get away with murder and he wouldn't bat an eyelid
.Thanks for your responses to what is a long and fairly uninteresting (to an outside party) story. If this had happened only a few weeks ago it wouldn't have mattered, but he bought himself a car and now has the monthly insurance commitments etc. I think he was building up to changing jobs anyway, it's just a shame as he enjoys his job and he's losing a good reference after 2 years. He, along with others, was looking forward to this harpie moving on, like someone said it looks like they ar making an example.
He's a good natured lad, and I think these retailers take advantage of youth. A perfect environment for tin pot little Napoleons with no sense of proportion.
There are a couple of glimmers of light for another job, just a shame he can't confirm them before Monday to give them the finger!
He's a good natured lad, and I think these retailers take advantage of youth. A perfect environment for tin pot little Napoleons with no sense of proportion.
There are a couple of glimmers of light for another job, just a shame he can't confirm them before Monday to give them the finger!
spikeyhead said:
Jasandjules said:
Have they provided him with all the evidence? It is not theft though because he hadn't left the store, however she may be guilty of libel and slander!
Theft, to permanently deprive the rightful owner ofI suspect that once its been eaten you've permanently deprived the owner of it.
However a decent employment lawyer will make mincemeat of an attempted dismissal for eating a single chocolate covered raisin.
But then I don't work in as shop - I'd needs to check employment handbook and see what it says about hearings and eating food. He is also entitled to have someone with him (union rep etc)
siscar said:
Alfa_75_Steve said:
Ultimately, the best he can hope for is to negotiate resignation without an adverse reference.
No, I'm sorry, but that is wrong. If his shift was complete and if he was standing in the queue to buy the item and if they haven't accused him of theft then dismissing him would be very dodgy from a legal perspective. It really doesn't matter how seriously the company takes it, they are still bound by the law and dismissing an employee for this when he was in his own time and standing in line to pay for the item is going to be hard to get to stand up at tribunal. If it was in his working time and if he'd just taken the item and ate it it would be a different story.Poor kid.
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