am I doing something silly ?
Discussion
Every day I wake up and dread going to work, I do flooring for a living and although the money is quite good, after 11 years I yearn something different, something I want to get up for, something I have to think about.
Anyway I have decided to go to college full time this time next year doing photography, my mum is a lecturer there and has worked out that I could get 150 a week with student loans etc (which would keep the lotus active if I do a couple of days a week flooring)
could it be possible after a 3 yr degree (after knowing next to sod all now) I could make a living in photography or advertising with photoshop?
I don't mind taking even a 50% decrease in wages if I can wake up and look forward to the day ahead!
Like I said its not really about the cash, just a life you enjoy ! thoughts please !!!
Anyway I have decided to go to college full time this time next year doing photography, my mum is a lecturer there and has worked out that I could get 150 a week with student loans etc (which would keep the lotus active if I do a couple of days a week flooring)
could it be possible after a 3 yr degree (after knowing next to sod all now) I could make a living in photography or advertising with photoshop?
I don't mind taking even a 50% decrease in wages if I can wake up and look forward to the day ahead!
Like I said its not really about the cash, just a life you enjoy ! thoughts please !!!
If you don't mind me asking are you self employed at the moment? TBH I understand from a couple of pros I know that really you need business skills first, people skills second and photography skills third. If you're running a successful company at the mo you're half way there.
Still a brave move though!
Still a brave move though!
VxDuncan said:
If you don't mind me asking are you self employed at the moment? TBH I understand from a couple of pros I know that really you need business skills first, people skills second and photography skills third. If you're running a successful company at the mo you're half way there.
Still a brave move though!
yeah, I'm self employed so the way I see it I could squeeze a couple of customers in for beer money mid week, and take a few quid from colleagues that I could pass some business to, well thats the plan anyways.Still a brave move though!
Im 28 going on 50, pissed off and bored, the way I see it, it could be a new start or my 'gap year'off.
I suppose I have a trade to fall back on but going back into education after 10 years of manual grafting seems a little scary, christ I can't remember the last time I put pen to paper.
I think there are two things here. One is turning a hobby into a living. The other is that if you want to start a new business it's much more likely to work if you know all about the subject. For myself I'd been a keen SLR hobbyist for many years, and I know enough about it to answer all my prospect's questions and win business. At the moment for you, photography is (does not appear to be) even a hobby, and you don't (appear to) know anything about it either.
That's not to say it won't work, but as you'll know from reading this forum, every amateur snapper out there wants to make money from his work and there's simply not that much to go round. Many have day jobs and snap for beer money. That's great, but it won't pay the bills so it's not a living. There are plenty of people ahead of you who have one or both of the requirements as above, and who will therefore beat you in a straight fight for work. So I applaud your ambition and willingness to go off and learn, and I hope it works for you, but don't be surprised if it doesn't. 'Be realistic' I suppose is the thing.
[peterjonesmodeoff]
That's not to say it won't work, but as you'll know from reading this forum, every amateur snapper out there wants to make money from his work and there's simply not that much to go round. Many have day jobs and snap for beer money. That's great, but it won't pay the bills so it's not a living. There are plenty of people ahead of you who have one or both of the requirements as above, and who will therefore beat you in a straight fight for work. So I applaud your ambition and willingness to go off and learn, and I hope it works for you, but don't be surprised if it doesn't. 'Be realistic' I suppose is the thing.
[peterjonesmodeoff]
If you know 'sod all' about photography I doubt very much that you will get onto a degree. Having said that it is not that competitive these days. It was extremely tough in my day 25 places for 750 applicants.
I think that you should consider doing a BTEC ND first as then you will learn the technical aspect of camera work, lighting and print and processing. Also you will learn more about the theory and the history of photography, enabling you to deal with the conceptual aspect of the medium.
Business skills are of paramount importance in order to bring work in and run the business. People skills are incredibly important too. I actually think my people skills are better than that of my photography skills. Not all jobs are fun and interesting but if you can approach them with the right mind set you'll be fine.
I applaud your ambition and your honesty. It takes courage to say that my life/job is rubbish, I want to change it and then do something about it. There is nothing worse than saying "I could have been x if only I had done x" when you look back on life when you are 80.
I think that you should consider doing a BTEC ND first as then you will learn the technical aspect of camera work, lighting and print and processing. Also you will learn more about the theory and the history of photography, enabling you to deal with the conceptual aspect of the medium.
Business skills are of paramount importance in order to bring work in and run the business. People skills are incredibly important too. I actually think my people skills are better than that of my photography skills. Not all jobs are fun and interesting but if you can approach them with the right mind set you'll be fine.
I applaud your ambition and your honesty. It takes courage to say that my life/job is rubbish, I want to change it and then do something about it. There is nothing worse than saying "I could have been x if only I had done x" when you look back on life when you are 80.
Well hats off for trying to do something about it!
If you really know nothing about photography then I why not take an evening course or something? I know they do this sort of thing at our local school I'm sure they must do something near you. Do that see f you enjoy it before you commit to 3 years.
Whatever you do please keep us posted, and good luck..
D
If you really know nothing about photography then I why not take an evening course or something? I know they do this sort of thing at our local school I'm sure they must do something near you. Do that see f you enjoy it before you commit to 3 years.
Whatever you do please keep us posted, and good luck..
D
I've posted this before, and it's well worth a read (although, not totally apt for this topic): http://www.sportsshooter.com/news/2014
I really respect people who do that. You only get one shot at life so do what you enjoy and you're best at 
Any examples of your work?I have been taking photographs for years and have had quite a few shots published and shot a few weddings in my time. Twice in my life I have had a go at being a photographer full-time including designing websites and taking bespoke photos for clients to use on those sites.
However each time I have always had another source of income running parallel and to be brutally honest, if I had ever had to rely on photography for a living I would be 6 feet under by now or at least at the "eating weevils out of biscuits" stage...
And it's not through not trying hard enough: I have attended college, worked as an assistant to studio photgraphers to learn lighting & portrait photography for free (what photographer would pay when people are queuing up to "work" for nothing"?) and paid quite a sum for a "wedding business course" which was actauuly brilliant but it still didn't get me work. Actually I just remembered I did work for an assistant for a week for a photographer in Holborn and was paid £45.00
Just today I received a reply from a magazine who said "thanks for your disc, unfortunately there's nothing there so we're going with the photos we took". Well I know for a fact the guy who took the photos wasn't a photographer and I saw his pics and they were not good at all, just "grabbed shots" (I know becuase he was standing next to me taking his pics at the same time, after taking advantage of the same vantage point I had sorted out myself!)
This may sound like sour grapes but I'm not sure how many people really value photography as a skill. I think I prety much know what I'm doing after taking photos for more than 20 years (since I was a kid and it's second-nature now) but I don't think enough people, including editors and clients (apart from those at a truly high level like "proper" magazine editors and artistic directors) really can spot the difference between a well-taken shot and one that's distinctly second-rate.
For example even a lot of "recent" photo enthusiasts, with the best will in the world, think all thay have to do is buy a D300 or 40D and the world is their oyster. Can you believe people buy these cameras and expect to be an expert photographer overnight and wonder what's wrong when their photos aren't up to much?!
That's like buying a cooker and wondering why you can't cook like Gordon Ramsey or buying a Ferrari and wondering why you can't drive like Lewis Hamilton!
Unfortunately as well we live in a society that has no backbone: i.e. everyone needs money but there are always people willing to use their expensive gear to take photos for little or no financial gain. Very few people have the guts to hold out for a rate and uphold the value of anything in this spineless country (sorry about the generalisation). Consider how many people trust one of the most special days of their lives (I'm talking about their wedding, well it's special at the time...), an event that's truly unrepeatable, to someone who's just bought a D70 and doesn't know how to use it (just put it on "P for Program" and use the built in flash....not!)
On top of this local newspapers often pay terrific fees like £30 (imagine the profit after you've driven to the location, waited 2 hours, paid to park, used 5 grand's worth of gear that you're hanging onto for dear life becuase that yob over there is wondering how many drugs he can get if he pawns your camera that he's eyeing up. And yes, I have been told by newspaper editors that "we don't pay expenses, just a flat fee" or "we'll credit your name but won't pay for the image"!
Perhaps I'm different to you in that I genuinely love photography and I'm more interested in taking the photos I want than getting paid. When I was getting paid I took a lot of photos of totally exciting subjects like people sitting at work at their desks or fronts of shops etc.
So my decision a while ago was to get trade that people are likely to need,that pays reasonably well, is flexible enough and that I can do almost anywhere (i.e. I trained to be a plumber though the advantages listed here can also apply to flooring). Meanwhile I can use my money to go travelling and take whatever photos I want, with all the freedom in the world with no editorial or client constraints.
Occasionally I'll submit something and it may or may not be published. I'm over the excitement of being published now and unfortunately I also know from experience that the fees paid are pretty sad in general. Point is I don't (thank god and I really mean that) need to make a living from photography.
Howver you are lucky: you could work 2 or 3 days a week or more at your trade and ease into photography. The point at which to give up your trade is the point where you have so much paid photographic work that you no longer have time for flooring and then you can realise a dream.
Perhaps I view life in a simple way: "fit taps, get £50, fit shower £300" then I know where I am so I can go off and take photos in some lovely location.
It all depends on what you want out of life and it's true "you only get one shot". However for me: I have a huge mortgage, girlfriend, decent car, other hobbies like my Gibson Les Paul and buying loads of tasty photo gear and photography won't sustain that lot for me...!
Malc
However each time I have always had another source of income running parallel and to be brutally honest, if I had ever had to rely on photography for a living I would be 6 feet under by now or at least at the "eating weevils out of biscuits" stage...
And it's not through not trying hard enough: I have attended college, worked as an assistant to studio photgraphers to learn lighting & portrait photography for free (what photographer would pay when people are queuing up to "work" for nothing"?) and paid quite a sum for a "wedding business course" which was actauuly brilliant but it still didn't get me work. Actually I just remembered I did work for an assistant for a week for a photographer in Holborn and was paid £45.00
Just today I received a reply from a magazine who said "thanks for your disc, unfortunately there's nothing there so we're going with the photos we took". Well I know for a fact the guy who took the photos wasn't a photographer and I saw his pics and they were not good at all, just "grabbed shots" (I know becuase he was standing next to me taking his pics at the same time, after taking advantage of the same vantage point I had sorted out myself!)
This may sound like sour grapes but I'm not sure how many people really value photography as a skill. I think I prety much know what I'm doing after taking photos for more than 20 years (since I was a kid and it's second-nature now) but I don't think enough people, including editors and clients (apart from those at a truly high level like "proper" magazine editors and artistic directors) really can spot the difference between a well-taken shot and one that's distinctly second-rate.
For example even a lot of "recent" photo enthusiasts, with the best will in the world, think all thay have to do is buy a D300 or 40D and the world is their oyster. Can you believe people buy these cameras and expect to be an expert photographer overnight and wonder what's wrong when their photos aren't up to much?!
That's like buying a cooker and wondering why you can't cook like Gordon Ramsey or buying a Ferrari and wondering why you can't drive like Lewis Hamilton!
Unfortunately as well we live in a society that has no backbone: i.e. everyone needs money but there are always people willing to use their expensive gear to take photos for little or no financial gain. Very few people have the guts to hold out for a rate and uphold the value of anything in this spineless country (sorry about the generalisation). Consider how many people trust one of the most special days of their lives (I'm talking about their wedding, well it's special at the time...), an event that's truly unrepeatable, to someone who's just bought a D70 and doesn't know how to use it (just put it on "P for Program" and use the built in flash....not!)
On top of this local newspapers often pay terrific fees like £30 (imagine the profit after you've driven to the location, waited 2 hours, paid to park, used 5 grand's worth of gear that you're hanging onto for dear life becuase that yob over there is wondering how many drugs he can get if he pawns your camera that he's eyeing up. And yes, I have been told by newspaper editors that "we don't pay expenses, just a flat fee" or "we'll credit your name but won't pay for the image"!
Perhaps I'm different to you in that I genuinely love photography and I'm more interested in taking the photos I want than getting paid. When I was getting paid I took a lot of photos of totally exciting subjects like people sitting at work at their desks or fronts of shops etc.
So my decision a while ago was to get trade that people are likely to need,that pays reasonably well, is flexible enough and that I can do almost anywhere (i.e. I trained to be a plumber though the advantages listed here can also apply to flooring). Meanwhile I can use my money to go travelling and take whatever photos I want, with all the freedom in the world with no editorial or client constraints.
Occasionally I'll submit something and it may or may not be published. I'm over the excitement of being published now and unfortunately I also know from experience that the fees paid are pretty sad in general. Point is I don't (thank god and I really mean that) need to make a living from photography.
Howver you are lucky: you could work 2 or 3 days a week or more at your trade and ease into photography. The point at which to give up your trade is the point where you have so much paid photographic work that you no longer have time for flooring and then you can realise a dream.
Perhaps I view life in a simple way: "fit taps, get £50, fit shower £300" then I know where I am so I can go off and take photos in some lovely location.
It all depends on what you want out of life and it's true "you only get one shot". However for me: I have a huge mortgage, girlfriend, decent car, other hobbies like my Gibson Les Paul and buying loads of tasty photo gear and photography won't sustain that lot for me...!
Malc
thanks for taking the time for that malc, seems sensible enough to me and most likely be the thing to do, as for previous posts when I say I havn't got a clue about photography, I mean compared to you lot, I've got the basics and can graft a tit on someones head with photoshop... I am trying lol !
malc350 said:
Unfortunately as well we live in a society that has no backbone: i.e. everyone needs money but there are always people willing to use their expensive gear to take photos for little or no financial gain.
You'll have to excuse me for highlighting that particular quote but you are absolutely spot on.I sell the occasional print etc to club racing drivers and i find they're more than happy to pay a reasonable price. However i also get regular enquiries from organisations involved with Motorsport (no names) who go silent as soon as you make it clear you won't be supplying anything free of charge.
I made my 1 and only mistake several years ago when a well known racing team dangled a carrot and failed to keep a promise of regular work. It won't happen again.
Edited by MonkeyHanger on Saturday 23 August 12:22
crackthatoff said:
thanks for taking the time for that malc, seems sensible enough to me and most likely be the thing to do, as for previous posts when I say I havn't got a clue about photography, I mean compared to you lot, I've got the basics and can graft a tit on someones head with photoshop... I am trying lol !
No problemo!Monkeyhanger: you reminded me of something else people would say: "I thought it would be good practice for you to photograph my daughter's wedding / photograph my portfolio..." I did once (or twice) say "I've been a photographer for 20 years, I'm sure I need the ******ing practice.
Maybe they can practice being my accountant/solicitor/doctor/builder.....
Fortunately nobody says that now I'm a plumber; they're too worried I'll say "OK, how about I practice turning your bathroom into a swimming pool!!!"
M.
Edited by malc350 on Saturday 23 August 17:24
malc350 said:
crackthatoff said:
thanks for taking the time for that malc, seems sensible enough to me and most likely be the thing to do, as for previous posts when I say I havn't got a clue about photography, I mean compared to you lot, I've got the basics and can graft a tit on someones head with photoshop... I am trying lol !
No problemo!Monkeyhanger: you reminded me of something else people would say: "I thought it would be good practice for you to photograph my daughter's wedding / photograph my portfolio..." I did once (or twice) say "I've been a photographer for 20 years, I'm sure I need the ******ing practice."
Maybe they can practice being my accountant/solicitor/doctor/builder.....
Fortunately nobody says that now I'm a plumber; they're too worried I'll say "OK, how about I practice turning your bathroom into a swimming pool!!!"
M.
Edited by malc350 on Saturday 23 August 17:24
Malc350 one of the best posts I've seen for a long time.
<rant mode on> Its a pity that most seem either to revolve around criticising/putting down the actions/opinions of others, or my what-ever is better than your what-ever, or in some forums, I have nothing better to do so I'll throw in this totally vacuous question and equally vacuous people respond.
<rant mode off>
<rant mode on> Its a pity that most seem either to revolve around criticising/putting down the actions/opinions of others, or my what-ever is better than your what-ever, or in some forums, I have nothing better to do so I'll throw in this totally vacuous question and equally vacuous people respond.
<rant mode off>
paul.deitch said:
Malc350 one of the best posts I've seen for a long time.
<rant mode on> Its a pity that most seem either to revolve around criticising/putting down the actions/opinions of others, or my what-ever is better than your what-ever, or in some forums, I have nothing better to do so I'll throw in this totally vacuous question and equally vacuous people respond.
<rant mode off>
Cheers dude! I thought I was going to get flamed for being "negative" however my reply was based on years of experience.<rant mode on> Its a pity that most seem either to revolve around criticising/putting down the actions/opinions of others, or my what-ever is better than your what-ever, or in some forums, I have nothing better to do so I'll throw in this totally vacuous question and equally vacuous people respond.
<rant mode off>
And it's still pretty current advice: last week I quoted for a wedding (not quite the usual thing but still: last minute, we don't want any prints, just a CD {so the photographer has no further revenue generating possibilities from that job then..}. I quoted a "fair price" and negotiated slightly though in the end I didn't get the job. My guess is someone in the family has a 400D or something and they're going to take them....
Anyway what I wasn't going to do was to chip away at my price because one further thing I will say: I quoted £500, then negotiated down to £450. That was for a job from 9am to 3pm (I told her maybe 3 or 400 photos) and remember there's no money to be made from prints. Let me tell you this; if I had had my price chipped away to £200, the value of the job would have been lost, they'll think you're making loads of profit even at 200 quid, try and get it even cheaper, and I would have ended up there all day for a lower fee, doing more work than if I had got £450.
They also wanted the CD same evening so I would have been running around really earning my money that day I can tell you.
One last consideration regarding weddings (who's crazy about weddings but they are comparatively a quick way to get paid and earn potentially decent money): don't think "digital is easier" either. If you use RAW you can spend as much as 2 full days post processing and planning and putting an album together. Digital takes MORE of your time up than film ever did. So NEVER get to thinking that you're getting £600 for less than a day's work photographing a wedding. In actual fact you'll meet the couple, probably visit the church once or twice to plan the shoot, attend the wedding running around like a loon, and then spend time on post processing and the album and then meeting the couple again to present the album & take final payment. That equates to 4 days and if you're lucky enough to get 600 quid (trust me people want that lot for 200 quid or less sometimes!) that means you're on £150 per day which is not the end of the world but probably less than a good flooring installer earns.
And don't forget you have to advertise, spend out on proomoting your business, have a couple of insurances and "have a better camera than the amateurs and relatives at the wedding are likely to have". Honestly if you turned up with a D200 and someone in the crowd has a D300 they'll think they're "better than you"!!!!
Anyone think I should write an amusing book on this subject?
Malc
Edited by malc350 on Sunday 24th August 09:21
malc350 said:
paul.deitch said:
Malc350 one of the best posts I've seen for a long time.
<rant mode on> Its a pity that most seem either to revolve around criticising/putting down the actions/opinions of others, or my what-ever is better than your what-ever, or in some forums, I have nothing better to do so I'll throw in this totally vacuous question and equally vacuous people respond.
<rant mode off>
Cheers dude! I thought I was going to get flamed for being "negative" however my reply was based on years of experience.<rant mode on> Its a pity that most seem either to revolve around criticising/putting down the actions/opinions of others, or my what-ever is better than your what-ever, or in some forums, I have nothing better to do so I'll throw in this totally vacuous question and equally vacuous people respond.
<rant mode off>
And it's still pretty current advice: last week I quoted for a wedding (not quite the usual thing but still: last minute, we don't want any prints, just a CD {so the photographer has no further revenue generating possibilities from that job then..}. I quoted a "fair price" and negotiated slightly though in the end I didn't get the job. My guess is someone in the family has a 400D or something and they're going to take them....
Anyway what I wasn't going to do was to chip away at my price because one further thing I will say: I quoted £500, then negotiated down to £450. That was for a job from 9am to 3pm (I told her maybe 3 or 400 photos) and remember there's no money to be made from prints. Let me tell you this; if I had had my price chipped away to £200, the value of the job would have been lost, they'll think you're making loads of profit even at 200 quid, try and get it even cheaper, and I would have ended up there all day for a lower fee, doing more work than if I had got £450.
They also wanted the CD same evening so I would have been running around really earning my money that day I can tell you.
One last consideration regarding weddings (who's crazy about weddings but they are comparatively a quick way to get paid and earn potentially decent money): don't think "digital is easier" either. If you use RAW you can spend as much as 2 full days post processing and planning and putting an album together*. Digital takes MORE of your time up than film ever did. So NEVER get to thinking that you're getting £600 for less than a day's work photographing a wedding. In actual fact you'll meet the couple, probably visit the church once or twice to plan the shoot, attend the wedding running around like a loon, and then spend time on post processing and the album and then meeting the couple again to present the album & take final payment. That equates to 4 days and if you're lucky enough to get 600 quid (trust me people want that lot for 200 quid or less sometimes!) that means you're on £150 per day which is not the end of the world but probably less than a good flooring installer earns.
And don't forget you have to advertise, spend out on proomoting your business, have a couple of insurances and "have a better camera than the amateurs and relatives at the wedding are likely to have". Honestly if you turned up with a D200 and someone in the crowd has a D300 they'll think they're "better than you"!!!!
Anyone think I should write an amusing book on this subject?
(* this is why you generally shoot JPEG for weddings but I always shoot RAW for everything else - you cannot beat a correctly processed RAW image for detail and IQ)
Malc
Edited by malc350 on Sunday 24th August 09:21
paul.deitch said:
Its a pity that most seem either to revolve around criticising/putting down the actions/opinions of others, or my what-ever is better than your what-ever
If you mean me and the other respondents, then I'm very sorry we stopped to waste our time giving our opinions which we felt to be helpful. Your effort contains nothing of interest to the OP; indeed, to quote yourself, you seem to be 'criticising/putting down the actions/opinions of others'.Malc's post was excellent; he was actually making the same points as the rest but in much greater detail.
BTW if you actually have a view on ther OP's suggestions, feel free to chip in. But when you're starting a business you do need to be as harsh as possible in considering what can go wrong. That allows you to have a strategy for each case if and when it happens. Sailing in thinking 'I'm going to get loads of work and be rich' is hardly a responsible business plan. Sometimes, everything is not possible. Throwing tough questions at the OP and making him think is vital, because he needs to answer those questions if his idea is going to succeed.
Edited by Simpo Two on Sunday 24th August 09:34
Malc is spot on IMO.
I've a friend here in NZ whos just started up a wedding photo biz, doing OK so far plenty of upcoming bookings bot so many shots per day and so much processing (his wife is doing that pretty much full time) after the chats, the look see's the day and after its a whole ton of work.
And yet he still cant even contemplate quiting his day job, not this year, or next etc cause it just wont pay enough.
I've a friend here in NZ whos just started up a wedding photo biz, doing OK so far plenty of upcoming bookings bot so many shots per day and so much processing (his wife is doing that pretty much full time) after the chats, the look see's the day and after its a whole ton of work.
And yet he still cant even contemplate quiting his day job, not this year, or next etc cause it just wont pay enough.
Gassing Station | Photography & Video | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff