Track car - 968CS or Elise

[tertius]

Bear with me here ...

I currently track a 993 Carrera - its basically a (very nice) standard car that I have sort of turned into an occasional track car - it has buckets, harnesses, some performance mods and it goes really pretty well.

I really like it as a track car mainly because it is hugely challenging to drive well. However, it has a number of shortcomings as a track car, mainly as a result of the fact that I refuse to compromise its underlying ability as a road car with 2+2 seats:

1. it has rear seats (the buckets/harnesses are put in/out for each track day)
2. it has no cage
3. it has a sunroof/CD/air con/leather
4. it is quite lardy
5. it has no cage

As you might have gathered I'm starting to worry about the fact that I have no cage in the 993.

So I am considering buying a dedicated track car, with a budget of approx. 10K. Some criteria: coupé, RWD, interesting, must be able to drive it to/from the circuit, room for future improvement.

I think I have whittled my options down to two:

1. 968 CS
2. some sort of Lotus Elise

Currently not quite making the shortlist:

3. BMW E30/E36 M3

The short list cars appeal in two different ways, the 968CS is a classic, and its a Porsche (I obviously like Porsches). It has a roof - I like that in a track car (so no Caterfields thanks). The Elise, I like for its lightness - it obviously doesn't really have a roof and can you put a cage in?

So my questions:

1. what else should I consider?
2. which Elise should I be looking at?
3. can an Elise be caged? Does it need to be?
4. I'm pretty tall and although I have passengered in a couple of Elises I have never driven one - is there a practical size limit?

cheers

[FraMac]

If you're based in (or can get to) the NW, quite happy to take you out for a clatter in my 968CS - caged, harnessed, buckets, LSD, big daft brakes, KW3 suspension, supercharger. Quite a few 968CS for sale, and as a small group its easy to establish their history.

[murphy968]

I've owned a 968CS for five years, which I have only used on track three times. Two of those were at Bedford Autodrome on Lotus club arranged days and so with lots of Elises. The other was at Snetterton. Those tracks are pretty fast and suited the Porsche a treat as it's a faster car. At Bedford the Porsche was definately the car to have, really excelling on the longer curves and straights. I suspect the Lotus would probably have an advantage over the Porsche at smaller circuit like Brands Indy. I'm biased, but I also think the Porsche is a more dramatic looking and iconic car, and I think it is fair to say that the Porsche is much much more robust. It is a strong car - could you say that about an Elise? Also, if you buy a CS and you're lucky enough to find one with the M030 brake option you will be stunned by the car's braking ability.

Incidently, my car will be for sale soon. A very good example in Guards Red, with M030, and the Recaro kevlar seats.

[Fidgits]

From the Elise point of view... at £10k for track work - you'd probably be best trying to get a really nice S1 111S, they are apparantly harder-core.

I dont think you can cage them, but its a small cabin, so I very much doubt you would need to?.

Its also worth looking at Honda converted cars - both S1 and S2, as they can easily run 300bhp, in 700kg

as for height, I don't know on the S1, but my mate whos 6 foot plus (and of 'sturdy build' fit in fine and drove it with no problems) though i think the S2 is slightly better than the S1 in that regard.

Edited by Fidgits on Wednesday 27th August 11:27

[jleroux]

don't forget than when it comes to track cars - only a fool breaks the one-tonne rule! 968 is an extremely competent all-rounder but if you're doing a number of days the consumables will start getting expensive. an early S1 elise is 2/3rds the weight of the 968CS and almost half the weight of a road 968! doesn't take a rocket scientist to do the maths on that one!

Jonny
BaT

[AJ-T]

Buy a Focus RS with 300bhp or a Mitsi Evo 6 and your keep up with a Porsche GT3 around most circuits!

Its not about power or torque (or what badge is on the front), its about how the car has been set-up for the track. Ive seen allot lesser cars (in some people's eyes) slay very expensive sports cars!

[tertius]

AJ-T said:

Buy a Focus RS with 300bhp or a Mitsi Evo 6 and your keep up with a Porsche GT3 around most circuits!

Its not about power or torque (or what badge is on the front), its about how the car has been set-up for the track. Ive seen allot lesser cars (in some people's eyes) slay very expensive sports cars!

Unless I'm mistaken neither of those is RWD.

And to be clear its not just about going fast in my book, its about having fun and being challenged.

Thanks for all the responses so far.

Jonny - I agree the consumbles will be more on the 968 but its not a significant factor for me - I can't imagine it'll cost any more than the 993, probably less. And talking of money you still owe me £25 ...

I would say that the 968 is still in the lead at the moment.

Other factors that have subsequently occurred to me:

1. I already have a good relationship with a local Porsche specialist so maintaining it will be straightforward. I have no idea where my nearest Lotus specialist is.
2. the relative practicality of the 968 is a plus - I could for instance take spare wheels with me - this is an occasional inconvenience in the 993 - when my track tyres are nearing the wear limits for example

[murphy968]

I didn't mention practicality in my reply before as you said you were specifically looking for a track day car. But this was certainly a factor in my choice of the CS. It has a massive "boot" and you can really fit a lot in. This is a factor if you want to travel in the car. I've taken myself and a friend to the Nurburgring twice and luggage concerns simply do not arise. In addition, the 968 is a fantastic cruiser, very quiet and light at 100mph plus and still with big gobs of torque left even at high speeds.

You have to want to own a CS if you have it as your daily drive as I do. Frankly, it is a pain on short local journeys as it can be quite heavy to drive slowly and getting in an out of the recaros takes practice. But, get some air under it in a fast flowing road or track and it is sublime. A really fine handling car, and as a 993 owner I'm sure you'll love it - it has all the Porsche credential, but is a little more "sports car" in its feel.

When buying the 968 I really fancied a 964 and sourced a nice examples, but driving the two back to back from purely a driving point of view it had to be the CS. You sit low, legs out in front, steering wheel just right in tight fitting racing seats. Also this is still a small car and never feels unweildy. Stand next to one and they are lot sleeker and smaller than pictures give you the impression. Mine sits lower than chest height and I'm 5'9".

I'm in Kent, if you want to see what a CS drives like and you're not too far away let me know. I'd be happy to take you for a spin.

As you can see, I love my CS and don't want to see it go, but I just don't have time for it anymore and it needs another enthusiast to look after it. Not trying to push my car, just enthusing over the model.

Keith

[tertius]

murphy968 said:

I didn't mention practicality in my reply before as you said you were specifically looking for a track day car. But this was certainly a factor in my choice of the CS. It has a massive "boot" and you can really fit a lot in. This is a factor if you want to travel in the car. I've taken myself and a friend to the Nurburgring twice and luggage concerns simply do not arise. In addition, the 968 is a fantastic cruiser, very quiet and light at 100mph plus and still with big gobs of torque left even at high speeds.

You have to want to own a CS if you have it as your daily drive as I do. Frankly, it is a pain on short local journeys as it can be quite heavy to drive slowly and getting in an out of the recaros takes practice. But, get some air under it in a fast flowing road or track and it is sublime. A really fine handling car, and as a 993 owner I'm sure you'll love it - it has all the Porsche credential, but is a little more "sports car" in its feel.

When buying the 968 I really fancied a 964 and sourced a nice examples, but driving the two back to back from purely a driving point of view it had to be the CS. You sit low, legs out in front, steering wheel just right in tight fitting racing seats. Also this is still a small car and never feels unweildy. Stand next to one and they are lot sleeker and smaller than pictures give you the impression. Mine sits lower than chest height and I'm 5'9".

I'm in Kent, if you want to see what a CS drives like and you're not too far away let me know. I'd be happy to take you for a spin.

As you can see, I love my CS and don't want to see it go, but I just don't have time for it anymore and it needs another enthusiast to look after it. Not trying to push my car, just enthusing over the model.

Keith

Cheers - it won't be a daily drive - it'll be a, ahem, third car. Nevertheless the "practicality" point has some attractions purely for track days and the 'ring and being able to lug stuff back and forth easily.

There's no chance you are going to be at Brands on 24th Sept I suppose?

[murphy968]

No, I'm afraid not. However, I live about 15 mins from Brands Hatch. I have done a lot of track days there - but never in a car! I won't be around during the day, but I will early evening.

[kusee pee]

Don't rule out the E36 M3. It has huge potential for being developed, you can pick them up cheap and they are great fun. They certainly have a better engine than the 968 or Elise IMO and with a number of mods will be as fast as either.

[schuey]

AJ-T said:

Buy a Focus RS with 300bhp or a Mitsi Evo 6 and your keep up with a Porsche GT3 around most circuits!

Its not about power or torque (or what badge is on the front), its about how the car has been set-up for the track. Ive seen allot lesser cars (in some people's eyes) slay very expensive sports cars!

Both of those cars would be slaughtered by a 968 at any circuit though. The 968 would get my vote having owned a 944s2 (not a million miles away from the 968) the handling really is sublime!

[GC8]

Better to buy a 968 Sport for half the money, than an over priced and over rated (for what it is) 968 Club Sport (+15 kilogrammes: - £6,000).

[tertius]

GC8 said:

Better to buy a 968 Sport for half the money, than an over priced and over rated (for what it is) 968 Club Sport (+15 kilogrammes: - £6,000).

Thanks

I don't think Sports are available for £3k ... http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/599288.htm

[Nurburgsingh]

tertius said:

GC8 said:

Better to buy a 968 Sport for half the money, than an over priced and over rated (for what it is) 968 Club Sport (+15 kilogrammes: - £6,000).

Thanks

I don't think Sports are available for £3k ... http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/599288.htm

I think he means CS's are £12K...

But yes a 968 is a fantastic choice for a track car... boot big enough for a spare set of tyres, as quiet as a mouse on the motorway cruise, fantastically comfortable - even the CS with recaros. Which is more than can be said for an elise...
I take Jonny's point about being a heavy car... BUT. The tyre size on a 968 is "standard" so there is some choice and not all of it is pricey, which cant be saud for an elise, its a porsche, not a lotus, its got a big boot, not a carrier bag hole, you can take small people in tha back ( if you get a sport) and i have to say I've overtaken more elises than have overtaken me.

and another thing.. its a Porsche...
and they look gorgeous!!!

see... http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

[GC8]

tertius said:

GC8 said:

Better to buy a 968 Sport for half the money, than an over priced and over rated (for what it is) 968 Club Sport (+15 kilogrammes: - £6,000).

Thanks

I don't think Sports are available for £3k ... http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/599288.htm

Fail

[GC8]

Id made an anti-'968 myth' post originally, but I edited it. The prices being paid for 968 Club Sports makes me laugh: I have not seen such an over valued car for a long time. How can a CS be worth twice what a decent Sport is selling for? The Sport is a virtually identical car, mechanically it is the same. How many 968s were optioned with M030: and how many of those had M220? The minority of cars that did come with Sport Dampers will be needing them rebuilt now and that costs a small fortune. Even then the car wont handle nearly as well as it would with modern suspension (which wont be much too hard on the road but far too soft on the track and can be had for less than a rebuild).

The 968 is a brilliant car, I loved my Club Sport, but I wouldnt entertain paying as much for one now as I sold mine for a decade ago. Particularly not when an otherwise identical car can be bought for half the price and it will in all probability, be a far better car too.

[N24]

GC8 said:

Id made an anti-'968 myth' post originally, but I edited it. The prices being paid for 968 Club Sports makes me laugh: I have not seen such an over valued car for a long time. How can a CS be worth twice what a decent Sport is selling for? The Sport is a virtually identical car, mechanically it is the same. How many 968s were optioned with M030: and how many of those had M220? The minority of cars that did come with Sport Dampers will be needing them rebuilt now and that costs a small fortune. Even then the car wont handle nearly as well as it would with modern suspension (which wont be much too hard on the road but far too soft on the track and can be had for less than a rebuild).

The 968 is a brilliant car, I loved my Club Sport, but I wouldnt entertain paying as much for one now as I sold mine for a decade ago. Particularly not when an otherwise identical car can be bought for half the price and it will in all probability, be a far better car too.

Every m030 car will have the m220 lsd - it was part & parcel of the m030 option when new. Although the m220 lsd was also available as a standalone option too.

[chip*]

tertius said:

Bear with me here ...

So I am considering buying a dedicated track car, with a budget of approx. 10K. Some criteria: coupé, RWD, interesting, must be able to drive it to/from the
circuit, room for future improvement.

So my questions:

1. what else should I consider?
2. which Elise should I be looking at?
3. can an Elise be caged? Does it need to be?
4. I'm pretty tall and although I have passengered in a couple of Elises I have never driven one - is there a practical size limit?

cheers

Daniel

Porker isn't my specality, but maybe I can add some neutral comments about moving to the dark side

For ~10k, you are looking in the S1 range, and preferably one which has a little more oomph than a std version given what you currently own else you'll be disappointed i.e. S160 or DV powered, Emerald chipped etc..You can find a track prepped S1 close to this price range with all the goodies like CR g/box, uprated dampers & brakes & toelinks, oil cooler etc. (one currently FS on SELOC). If you want to go further, drop a Honda lump in, and for a little more, stick a SC on top!

Yes, you can have a cage installed as used by the LOTDRC series cars, but you are looking at few more ££. Apart from the LOTDRC cars, I haven't seen any other Lotus track cars with a cage. If I could afford one, yes, I have one installed, but it's a matter of personal preference & budget.

Having met you, you are quite tall, and probably taller than any lotus drivers I know. One certain tall driver I know (maybe 1-2 inches shorter than you) fits in an S2 Exige ok (with helmet), but he did have to adjust his steering wheel so his "reach" was more comfortable and to avoid his knees banging against the bottom of the steering column. Best to jump into a S1 and see if you fit comfortably on a longish test drive.

Without a doubt, the Elise will have the following weakpoints compared to your 993:

- overall build quality is much lower than any german marque!
-lack of comfort (in terms of seating & noise & lack of the usual toys e.g. manual window, no AC etc.
-storage is resticted to soft bags due to the narrow boot
-getting in and out of the car is arkward! (I believe you have a knee injury so a consideration for you)

Providing you fit in one, and you can accept the above shortfalls, there's no reason not to buy an Elise and join the dark side I would guess the overall running cost (esp. on consumables) be much less, but it will provide equal (or more) fun that you are looking to achieve.

Rgds
Tom

PS. drop me a line at work tomorrow if you want a chat

[Tim S]

No-one seems to have mentioned that you don't need to cage an Elise/Exige to achieve chassis stiffness because they don't have steel monocoque chassis. In fact other than rollover protection I can't see what a cage would do to an Elise/Exige other than add weight, TBH.