Points on license are meaningless.
Discussion
I was at a hotel at the weekend with a group of friends, husbands/wives. When we were sitting in the resturant the conversation got around to points on your license.
Now you could not get a group of more upstanding members of society. Magistrate, five doctors, two consultant surgeons and two teachers (not me of course). Between us we had more people with six points or over than under and I was ridiculed for having no points!
All of these points were for going past speeding cameras, one from being stopped by the BIB for 42 in a 30 and one for driving too slowly in the blackwall tunnel.
It suddenly struck me that the points system had ceased to function. Gone are the days when there was a stigma to getting points. In my fathers day he thought you had to be drunk or a robber to get points in a car and would not have wanted to associate with them! (and he drove a lotus)
So while I was chatting on this table I realised that the stigma of points had gone, the peer pressure that would have resulted had gone, and the general consensus was that points were simply a tax on people who drove into an area they were unfamiliar with.
Apart from the insurance companies that obviously rub their hands together when we acrue points and the revenue collectors at the BIB. The effect of points on your license has effectively had its day?
Role on revenue linked to pay and insurance companies selling policies for the possibilty of losing your license?
Now you could not get a group of more upstanding members of society. Magistrate, five doctors, two consultant surgeons and two teachers (not me of course). Between us we had more people with six points or over than under and I was ridiculed for having no points!
All of these points were for going past speeding cameras, one from being stopped by the BIB for 42 in a 30 and one for driving too slowly in the blackwall tunnel.
It suddenly struck me that the points system had ceased to function. Gone are the days when there was a stigma to getting points. In my fathers day he thought you had to be drunk or a robber to get points in a car and would not have wanted to associate with them! (and he drove a lotus)
So while I was chatting on this table I realised that the stigma of points had gone, the peer pressure that would have resulted had gone, and the general consensus was that points were simply a tax on people who drove into an area they were unfamiliar with.
Apart from the insurance companies that obviously rub their hands together when we acrue points and the revenue collectors at the BIB. The effect of points on your license has effectively had its day?
Role on revenue linked to pay and insurance companies selling policies for the possibilty of losing your license?
not when you reach 12! Julian64 said:
Apart from the insurance companies that obviously rub their hands together when we acrue points and the revenue collectors at the BIB. The effect of points on your license has effectively had its day?
Not so. Unfortunately the points "tot-up" and eventually you get banned. Driving whilst banned is a much more serious offence and, in theory, such a driver could be jailed.
The points have teeth still. Now if the points were removed and you just got the £60 quid fine it really would be taxation pure and simple.
And of course - people like me could simply pay up for the privelige of going at any speed we liked (within reason).
Julian64 said:
Role on revenue linked to pay and insurance companies selling policies for the possibilty of losing your license?
The revenue linked pay is already here - although not for the individual operator - it simply applies to the Speed Detection Business.
As to the insurance policy? Why its already here too. Chauffeurplan, I believe. Provided you don't have any Drink Drive points they'll insure you against losing your licence under the totting up scheme.
I've considered it, frankly. I only have three points on my licence but if, for example, I got caught keeping up with the traffic on the M4 (say 98mph ish) that could result in a very inconvenient ban.
Of course. I never do that sort of speed. Ever. Hardly at all.
www.swaleinsurance.co.uk/chauffeu.htm
Chaufferplan looks like a good idea in the current climate for people who need their cars.
However, I'm confused why it says:
Chaufferplan looks like a good idea in the current climate for people who need their cars.
However, I'm confused why it says:
website said:
There were over 2.7 million accidental injuries- just in the home - in 1998
But what I was trying (badly) to say is that once 'driving like a looney' would be considered in the same class as robbing people or driving drunk.
It was the lack of social acceptability that would be a more effective deterrent than getting caught (almost) You would probably have lost your friends, been passed over for promotion in your job etc etc. Far more effective to the people who consider themselves upstanding.
Nowadays if you don't have a few points its because your a numpty, don't have a decent car, or unemployed and don't drive much.
Imagine you're a child. Its much better to chastise a child for something they themselves consider they've done wrong, (fair cop guv). But there's little point chastising a child when they consider they haven't done anything wrong. Half the battle with a child is for them to understand why they were wrong not that you're simply upset with them.
Same is true for speeding, we all know not to speed, because we get points. What I think the police have to concentrate on is getting over why. Its a message thats not getting through probably because most people consider it has no value.
If your worried just about the points buy a camera detector. Its fullproof unless you completely ignore it
On any rushhour on the A2 you will see a wave of red brake lights coming up to each camera and blue smoke thereafter.
It was the lack of social acceptability that would be a more effective deterrent than getting caught (almost) You would probably have lost your friends, been passed over for promotion in your job etc etc. Far more effective to the people who consider themselves upstanding.
Nowadays if you don't have a few points its because your a numpty, don't have a decent car, or unemployed and don't drive much.
Imagine you're a child. Its much better to chastise a child for something they themselves consider they've done wrong, (fair cop guv). But there's little point chastising a child when they consider they haven't done anything wrong. Half the battle with a child is for them to understand why they were wrong not that you're simply upset with them.
Same is true for speeding, we all know not to speed, because we get points. What I think the police have to concentrate on is getting over why. Its a message thats not getting through probably because most people consider it has no value.
If your worried just about the points buy a camera detector. Its fullproof unless you completely ignore it
On any rushhour on the A2 you will see a wave of red brake lights coming up to each camera and blue smoke thereafter.
Good points on both sides. Points clearly aren't meaningless because the totting up can cause serious inconvenience and I know for a fact that the 2 people that I have known have started driving a whole lot slower when they've received their 3rd lot of 3 points!
Therefore they do still matter and do still have an effect. However, I also agree with Julian that to some degree points have diminished in their potency. Having 3 or 6 points these days has almost become a bragging right in some circles rather than a shame. This isn't always the case, I have 3 points (which expire in November, just in time for me to get my RX8
) and I still haven't told my parents as I would be too embarassed to admit to it!! 
This discussion does prompt a question from me that has bugged me for a while. Is there anything that you can actually get 1 or 2 points for? To my mind, 38 in a 30 is a fairly minor indiscretion. But, do this 4 times and you could be banned, probably wouldn't be in reality, but theoretically you could. Why not base the no. of points on the speed? 1 for the first 10 mph over, then 2, then 3, then 6? And make it cumulative, so, if you're in a 30 zone, get stopped doing 30-40 get 1 point, 40-50 get 1 plus 2 = 3 points, 50-60 get 1 plus 2 plus 3 = 6 points, over 60 get 1 plus 2 plus 3 plus 6 = 12 and an immediate ban.
Sorted.
Therefore they do still matter and do still have an effect. However, I also agree with Julian that to some degree points have diminished in their potency. Having 3 or 6 points these days has almost become a bragging right in some circles rather than a shame. This isn't always the case, I have 3 points (which expire in November, just in time for me to get my RX8
) and I still haven't told my parents as I would be too embarassed to admit to it!! This discussion does prompt a question from me that has bugged me for a while. Is there anything that you can actually get 1 or 2 points for? To my mind, 38 in a 30 is a fairly minor indiscretion. But, do this 4 times and you could be banned, probably wouldn't be in reality, but theoretically you could. Why not base the no. of points on the speed? 1 for the first 10 mph over, then 2, then 3, then 6? And make it cumulative, so, if you're in a 30 zone, get stopped doing 30-40 get 1 point, 40-50 get 1 plus 2 = 3 points, 50-60 get 1 plus 2 plus 3 = 6 points, over 60 get 1 plus 2 plus 3 plus 6 = 12 and an immediate ban.
Sorted.
You're certainly right Julian64 that there's no longer a stigma.
I remember as a teenager being in a friends car which was pulled over and he was given a producer. He was in serious trouble with his father and he hadn't even done anything wrong, just pulled over for a friendly chat.
Nowadays most 12 year old seem to have been banned ;-)
I remember as a teenager being in a friends car which was pulled over and he was given a producer. He was in serious trouble with his father and he hadn't even done anything wrong, just pulled over for a friendly chat.
Nowadays most 12 year old seem to have been banned ;-)
Saw lots of signs in Canada advertising the points & fines for various speed-related indescretions.
From memory, a 'clean' license there has 20 points on it, which are knocked off in various quantities for different offences. A zero-point license isn't valid, so you can't drive.
There's a sliding scale of points per kph over the limit. I think the 1st increment comes in at 16kph over and increases from there.
Much fairer all round; minor 'oops' moments when passing revenue collectors on unfamiliar roads wouldn't be such a problem and the nutters would still get a sackload of points pretty quickly.
I would really like the idea of fine+0pts for minor speeding offences, but I doubt it would ever float as you'd get a backlash claiming that it was a carte blanche for those with deeper pockets.
Another thought has just struck me: in a "points down to zero" scheme like in Canada, you could award bonus points for passing advanced driving courses. How quickly would that improve the general standard of driving on our roads?
From memory, a 'clean' license there has 20 points on it, which are knocked off in various quantities for different offences. A zero-point license isn't valid, so you can't drive.
There's a sliding scale of points per kph over the limit. I think the 1st increment comes in at 16kph over and increases from there.
Much fairer all round; minor 'oops' moments when passing revenue collectors on unfamiliar roads wouldn't be such a problem and the nutters would still get a sackload of points pretty quickly.
I would really like the idea of fine+0pts for minor speeding offences, but I doubt it would ever float as you'd get a backlash claiming that it was a carte blanche for those with deeper pockets.
Another thought has just struck me: in a "points down to zero" scheme like in Canada, you could award bonus points for passing advanced driving courses. How quickly would that improve the general standard of driving on our roads?
pdV6 
In response to the original post:
I'm the 'proud' owner of 6 points, both sets gained within 2 weeks of each other earlier this year. I wasn't driving dangerously but fully admit to a certain lack of awareness (i.e. missed the mobile scameras and don't have a detector/jammer installed).
Prior to this, 15 years of point-free motoring. I've not changed the way I drive, which I believe to be perfectly safe, but I'm penalised nonetheless.
Many good friends and other people that I know are in a similar situation (i.e. a previously clean license ruined by recent increases in scamera activity). So, yes - I'd say that the perceived stigma of having points on your license has recently gone.
I'm the 'proud' owner of 6 points, both sets gained within 2 weeks of each other earlier this year. I wasn't driving dangerously but fully admit to a certain lack of awareness (i.e. missed the mobile scameras and don't have a detector/jammer installed).
Prior to this, 15 years of point-free motoring. I've not changed the way I drive, which I believe to be perfectly safe, but I'm penalised nonetheless.
Many good friends and other people that I know are in a similar situation (i.e. a previously clean license ruined by recent increases in scamera activity). So, yes - I'd say that the perceived stigma of having points on your license has recently gone.
Julian64 said:
It was the lack of social acceptability that would be a more effective deterrent than getting caught (almost) You would probably have lost your friends, been passed over for promotion in your job etc etc. Far more effective to the people who consider themselves upstanding.
And this is precisely what the government are trying, and succeeding, to achieve. In time it will be socially unacceptable to speed. It won't just be the lentil-munching sandalistas that shake their fists as you pass 'em - it'll be the whole youth of the day. Brainwashed. And you and I as "old foges" from their parents generation will be considered much more likely to offend as the condescendingly say things like "Things were different back then..." much as we do when some middle-aged bloke gets caught DD with three pints in him.
Julian64 said:
Nowadays if you don't have a few points its because your a numpty, don't have a decent car, or unemployed and don't drive much.
I do have a decent car, drive a lot, like to think I'm not a numpty, and although I don't have a real
job I suppose I do run my own Company. Damnit you win I have three points! But I'm an IAM member and am trying very hard not to get any more! 
Julian64 said:
We all know not to speed, because we get points. What I think the police have to concentrate on is getting over why.
They can't. Because its not a tenable argument. It is quite clearly obvious that inappropriate speed is a real killer - and that doing 500mph in a jet plane, 186mph on a train and 100mph on the M4 all can be perfectly safe. The appropriate speed for the conditions varies from moment to moment - and a good driver will be modifying his/her speed to suit. Often that shouldn't even be as high as the posted limit.
In these days of new inappropriately low limits springing up everywhere the thinking driver eventually loses patience, I feel...but the thinking driver will also generally avoid points because they don't speed where the sightlines do not allow it.
So perhaps we're all getting points because we're not quite as good as we'd like to think we are?
(Says he with three points he got which were all totally stupidly his own fault its a fair cop guv.)
Don said:
And this is precisely what the government are trying, and succeeding, to achieve.
I take it the other way, whilst it was the government's intention, they are clearly not succeeding. In fact, taking Julian's point, it is working in the reverse. The more people who get points and realise how easy it is to get them, the less stigma there is.
10 years ago 'totters' were quite rare, and carried a fair bit of stigma (without the government's propaganda). They are a lot less rare now, and consequently carry considerably les stigma.
In summary, it is making speeding more acceptable, not less.
>> Edited by jeffreyarcher on Tuesday 16th September 17:06
pdV6 said:
Saw lots of signs in Canada advertising the points & fines for various speed-related indescretions.
From memory, a 'clean' license there has 20 points on it, which are knocked off in various quantities for different offences. A zero-point license isn't valid, so you can't drive.
There's a sliding scale of points per kph over the limit. I think the 1st increment comes in at 16kph over and increases from there.
Much fairer all round; minor 'oops' moments when passing revenue collectors on unfamiliar roads wouldn't be such a problem and the nutters would still get a sackload of points pretty quickly.
I would really like the idea of fine+0pts for minor speeding offences, but I doubt it would ever float as you'd get a backlash claiming that it was a carte blanche for those with deeper pockets.
The points deducted scheme (with zero point +15kph "buffer zone") is used in Ontario iirc, and they also have this in Australia. Here in British Columbia you start with 0 points and accumulate positively, with all speed infractions being worth 3. But whether or not you get a ban depends more on endorsements, the discretion of the Office of the Superintendent of Motor Vehicles and the outcome of the appeal hearing should you take things that far.
Guidelines for a ban include, but are flexible and not necessarily restricted to:
- accumulating more than 15-18 points over a two year "live" period (3 for speeding; 3 for running a STOP sign; 6 for careless or inconsiderate driving; 2 points for most other moving violations)
- accumulating two or more convictions for either careless/inconsiderate driving, unsafe speed or "excessive" (>40km/h over the limit) speed within a single year
- accumulating multiple endorsements if you have a "Novice" licence issued to new drivers who haven't yet been retested (there is a retest to be taken after two years of licensure - I'm about to do it!)
"On the side" endorsements such as seat belt tickets etc. can sway the OSMV's opinion of a given driver and may make the OSMV more inclined to impose a ban. If they do choose to impose a ban, they must give three weeks' notice via a formally served notice which has to be delivered either by registered mail or by a peace officer (cop). You have the right to appeal a ban in the Supreme Court for $100. Dunno how successful that would be though - I guess it depends on the particulars of your case.
The major problem over here is that the speed limits are often set so ridiculously low, especially on the freeways, that you don't have to be a "nutter" to find yourself in the high penalty speed brackets! But the system is not really about safety, but rather revenue generation imho.
I like the sliding scale idea and it's something the goverment would go for I think.
If you get a 12 month ban that's one potential revenue generator off the streets for a year - think of all the fines they could be paying!
How about if they gave us 1 point up to 5, 2 up to 10 and 3 over 15?
The gimps in power would then get up to 12 fines (£720) before putting the driver out of action, instead of just 4! (£240)
If you get a 12 month ban that's one potential revenue generator off the streets for a year - think of all the fines they could be paying!
How about if they gave us 1 point up to 5, 2 up to 10 and 3 over 15?
The gimps in power would then get up to 12 fines (£720) before putting the driver out of action, instead of just 4! (£240)
Julian64 said:
Nowadays if you don't have a few points its because your a numpty, don't have a decent car, or unemployed and don't drive much.
Hmmmmmm
I have no points.
Why does a decent car come into the equation when 30mph is likely to award some and older cars have more con & use problems which also attract points?
I am not unemployed
quite the opposite actually. I drive lots.
julian64 said:
Imagine you're a child. Its much better to chastise a child for something they themselves consider they've done wrong, (fair cop guv). But there's little point chastising a child when they consider they haven't done anything wrong. Half the battle with a child is for them to understand why they were wrong not that you're simply upset with them.
Have you got children?
All children do things that are wrong but consider that they have done nothing they shouldn't have.
The first part of the battle is to explain that the child is wrong and why it is wrong and the impact that behaviour has on him/herself, the parent and anyone else that might be affected by that behaviour.
Then there is no need to explain why you are upset with them because the explanation is quite obvious.
julian64 said:
Same is true for speeding, we all know not to speed, because we get points. What I think the police have to concentrate on is getting over why. Its a message thats not getting through probably because most people consider it has no value.
Well I will tell you as I would a child.
Speeding is wrong because the law says it is wrong, just the same as the law says it is wrong to steal something (Most children will understand that concept)
Speeding, whilst the majority of the time has no consequences, has the potential (this means it might happen sooner or later) to do someone very serious damage either to their person or their property because the higher the speed they travel, the less time and room they have to react and correct a problem. Higher velocity (in child terms this means going faster) means greater impact consequences (this means if you hit something hard it will hurt more just like walking into a wall or running into a wall).
Julian64 said:
If your worried just about the points buy a camera detector. Its fullproof unless you completely ignore it
You don't need one as we are all equiped with them. They are called eyes. You use them by looking. When you go through an area which is decorated by dinner plate size discs on poles with pretty red borders and a number in the middle, it means that you must not let the indicator needle in front of you fixed to your preferred method of travel go past the same numbers written in the pretty red bordered disc on the pole. You do this by alternating your eyes (used for looking) between the road ahead and the needle indicator. You will be surprised how easy it is and how inexpensive they are to use. If you do not use them properly it can be quite an expensive error. Eyes are attached to your brain and that is the problem. Drivers brains are at the majority of the time in neutral. That makes the detectors basically useless.
Julian64 said:
On any rushhour on the A2 you will see a wave of red brake lights coming up to each camera and blue smoke thereafter.
And all because the lady loves 'MilkTray'
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