Discussion
Sorry if this is an age old question:
What are the advantages of a 111S vs 111R? Say an 03-05 K series 111S vs an 04 111R?
Here's how far I've got:
111S much cheaper road tax
But 111R much cheaper servicing (no cambelt change)
111R much quicker
But 111S about as quick in the real world, on real roads with real speed limits
111S better fuel economy than the 111R
111S cheaper (or newer for the same money)
Does the 111R rev significantly higher?
Is the performance in a different league?
Am I right in assuming handling/looks/ownership is otherwise pretty similar?
Any input welcome please.
What are the advantages of a 111S vs 111R? Say an 03-05 K series 111S vs an 04 111R?
Here's how far I've got:
111S much cheaper road tax
But 111R much cheaper servicing (no cambelt change)
111R much quicker
But 111S about as quick in the real world, on real roads with real speed limits
111S better fuel economy than the 111R
111S cheaper (or newer for the same money)
Does the 111R rev significantly higher?
Is the performance in a different league?
Am I right in assuming handling/looks/ownership is otherwise pretty similar?
Any input welcome please.
Very quick answer. Yes the R is quicker to accelerate but only slightly and that's about it in terms of performance. The R is very peaky and needs to be worked hard to get it moving where as the S has greater torque and is easier to drive in a more relaxed style. On track the R has the edge, on the road, not a lot in it really, more down to the driver.
griffter said:
Sorry if this is an age old question:
What are the advantages of a 111S vs 111R? Say an 03-05 K series 111S vs an 04 111R?
Here's how far I've got:
111S much cheaper road tax
But 111R much cheaper servicing (no cambelt change)
111R much quicker
But 111S about as quick in the real world, on real roads with real speed limits
111S better fuel economy than the 111R
111S cheaper (or newer for the same money)
Does the 111R rev significantly higher?
Is the performance in a different league?
Am I right in assuming handling/looks/ownership is otherwise pretty similar?
Any input welcome please.
The reality is, is that both are good cars. As mentioned above, they both have different engine characteristics but in reality, little separates them performance-wise in real-world driving. There are subtle differences in brake feel, accellerator feel etc. because the 111R's come with assisted brakes and some have drive-by-wire throttles. Best thing to do is try a number of both and then see which you prefer.What are the advantages of a 111S vs 111R? Say an 03-05 K series 111S vs an 04 111R?
Here's how far I've got:
111S much cheaper road tax
But 111R much cheaper servicing (no cambelt change)
111R much quicker
But 111S about as quick in the real world, on real roads with real speed limits
111S better fuel economy than the 111R
111S cheaper (or newer for the same money)
Does the 111R rev significantly higher?
Is the performance in a different league?
Am I right in assuming handling/looks/ownership is otherwise pretty similar?
Any input welcome please.
There isn't a massive different in outright performance, at least at road speeds (I think the 111S takes 14 seconds to get to 100, the 111R takes just over 13) - the 111S might be less powerful but it's also significantly lighter.
The 111R has servo assisted brakes with ABS. Some consider that a good thing, some a bad thing.
Personally I thought the 111S was the better car which is why I bought one. I could fully understand why someone would prefer the 111R though.
The 111R has servo assisted brakes with ABS. Some consider that a good thing, some a bad thing.
Personally I thought the 111S was the better car which is why I bought one. I could fully understand why someone would prefer the 111R though.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 11th September 10:33
Thanks guys.
I really want a/c as I intend to take my 3 year old out in this so that limits me to Touring specs.
I'm driving a 111S tomorrow. I doubt it'll leave me wanting more, but I'm trying to guage what more the R might give. And what it might - conceivably - take away (£££ for starters!).
Cheers. Any more views please post em up.
I really want a/c as I intend to take my 3 year old out in this so that limits me to Touring specs.
I'm driving a 111S tomorrow. I doubt it'll leave me wanting more, but I'm trying to guage what more the R might give. And what it might - conceivably - take away (£££ for starters!).
Cheers. Any more views please post em up.
griffter said:
Thanks guys.
I really want a/c as I intend to take my 3 year old out in this so that limits me to Touring specs.
I'm driving a 111S tomorrow. I doubt it'll leave me wanting more, but I'm trying to guage what more the R might give. And what it might - conceivably - take away (£££ for starters!).
Cheers. Any more views please post em up.
Aircon is not included in touring spec. AFAIK it's a seperate option.I really want a/c as I intend to take my 3 year old out in this so that limits me to Touring specs.
I'm driving a 111S tomorrow. I doubt it'll leave me wanting more, but I'm trying to guage what more the R might give. And what it might - conceivably - take away (£££ for starters!).
Cheers. Any more views please post em up.
Edited by VladTheDad on Thursday 11th September 12:30
If you drive them back to back the main thing you'll notice will be the brakes, gearchange and second cam in the R. The R brakes will feel better and like "they work" whereas the S has un-assisted brakes and you need to really apply pedal pressure to get the same retardation. The gearbox on the S can feel sloppy where the R is rifle bolt accurate and second cam is noisy and addictive, satisfies the little boy in you.
However, brakes on the S are just as good as the R and can be made more positive with decent pads and hoses, the gearbox can be "de-slopped" with upgraded linkages and the engine is actually probably more suited to road use than the R.
Having said all that I've got an Exige which has the same engine, brakes and gearbox as the R and I love it!
In terms of performance I've just returned from a Walshy day and the a straight I could hit a higher terminal speed than an S. I could hit 95 and an S was hitting 85 after about 4-500m. Question has to be, when would you be doing runs like that on the road?
If I was doing it all again I might consider a cheaper S and spend the difference on upgrades to suit my driving taste.
However, brakes on the S are just as good as the R and can be made more positive with decent pads and hoses, the gearbox can be "de-slopped" with upgraded linkages and the engine is actually probably more suited to road use than the R.
Having said all that I've got an Exige which has the same engine, brakes and gearbox as the R and I love it!
In terms of performance I've just returned from a Walshy day and the a straight I could hit a higher terminal speed than an S. I could hit 95 and an S was hitting 85 after about 4-500m. Question has to be, when would you be doing runs like that on the road?
If I was doing it all again I might consider a cheaper S and spend the difference on upgrades to suit my driving taste.
21TonyK said:
If I was doing it all again I might consider a cheaper S and spend the difference on upgrades to suit my driving taste.
exactly...imagine what DVA could do for you with the difference....
I would pick you up on the gearchange though, I know the PG-1 is not great, but I would not suggest the R one is streets better...
21TonyK said:
The R brakes will feel better and like "they work" whereas the S has un-assisted brakes and you need to really apply pedal pressure to get the same retardation.
TBH it's like using an ergonomic keyboard - feels odd at first, after you've got used to it you won't want to go back.
Personally I wouldn't take an S over an R. If budget allows I think you'll be amazed by the R. It's great fun and is far from unusable on the lower cam. You can cruise around all day changing up at 6000 if you want but it's party piece is what happens after that which is laugh-out-loud stuff all the way to 8500rpm. Toyota's VVTi is a copy of honda v-tec system and while engineering purists will scoff at it's jeckyll and hyde nature (there are plenty of those fun loving sorts here), if you're buying an elise purely for fun (surely that's the whole point of the car?) I think you get more of it from an R.
Take a passenger for a ride in an S and you'll get plenty of: 'wow, amazing round corners' or maybe 'only a 1.8? Really?'
take 'em out in a 111r and you'll get '*$@€!!!! Do that again!'
Anyone who says the gearbox isn't a massive improvement is either mad or is driving a duff car. No linkage improvements necessary with the 111r. The abs system is also excellent and very cuts in very late compared to the sort of system you'll find on a mondeo. Later cars also have traction control which is very well developed but in truth it's far from necessary.
Either way make sure you get an Elise. Both cars are massively quick point to point on british roads and will take your breath away round corners. Be warned though, nothing else will quite feel the same again. Boxsters and the like are lardy and dimwitted in comparison.
Sorry, just seen you've got a Griff. Ignore the above paragraph, you need an R at the very least! If you want TVR straight line mentalism you might need to look at a Honda engined elise (which you can get for the price of an R)!
I also own a TVR (Tuscan) and to be honest I don't find the R at all slow, I'd still call it quick, especially up to 100 or so. Thereafter big power really starts to come into play. It does stop accelerating hard after 120 unlike a TVR which keeps on going. But scooting up to 100 or so is still great fun.
Take a passenger for a ride in an S and you'll get plenty of: 'wow, amazing round corners' or maybe 'only a 1.8? Really?'
take 'em out in a 111r and you'll get '*$@€!!!! Do that again!'
Anyone who says the gearbox isn't a massive improvement is either mad or is driving a duff car. No linkage improvements necessary with the 111r. The abs system is also excellent and very cuts in very late compared to the sort of system you'll find on a mondeo. Later cars also have traction control which is very well developed but in truth it's far from necessary.
Either way make sure you get an Elise. Both cars are massively quick point to point on british roads and will take your breath away round corners. Be warned though, nothing else will quite feel the same again. Boxsters and the like are lardy and dimwitted in comparison.
Sorry, just seen you've got a Griff. Ignore the above paragraph, you need an R at the very least! If you want TVR straight line mentalism you might need to look at a Honda engined elise (which you can get for the price of an R)!
I also own a TVR (Tuscan) and to be honest I don't find the R at all slow, I'd still call it quick, especially up to 100 or so. Thereafter big power really starts to come into play. It does stop accelerating hard after 120 unlike a TVR which keeps on going. But scooting up to 100 or so is still great fun.
Edited by The Pits on Thursday 11th September 16:36
As others have said the main differences are in the manner of the power delivery - try before you buy and go for the one you enjoy most.
Interesting to hear Tony's comments as I was on the same Walshy day this week. I could get my 120 S1 (major mod is a c/r box) up to 90 on the straight before the high speed bend. I think terminal speed has as much to do with how you start the straight as the power of the car. Perhaps more tellingly is that when I was paxing with Tony around the 'circuit' I can't say Tony's car really felt any faster in terms of acceleration than mine (it was all 2/3 gear stuff) - I'd be interested to hear what Tony thought. The point I'm making is that the differences in performance are of the sort that need to be measured rather than anything you can actually feel.
I would add that an Exige S (with performance pack) I drove at Llandow recently definately felt faster than any Elise varient I'd experienced before.
Interesting to hear Tony's comments as I was on the same Walshy day this week. I could get my 120 S1 (major mod is a c/r box) up to 90 on the straight before the high speed bend. I think terminal speed has as much to do with how you start the straight as the power of the car. Perhaps more tellingly is that when I was paxing with Tony around the 'circuit' I can't say Tony's car really felt any faster in terms of acceleration than mine (it was all 2/3 gear stuff) - I'd be interested to hear what Tony thought. The point I'm making is that the differences in performance are of the sort that need to be measured rather than anything you can actually feel.
I would add that an Exige S (with performance pack) I drove at Llandow recently definately felt faster than any Elise varient I'd experienced before.
TIPPER said:
As others have said the main differences are in the manner of the power delivery - try before you buy and go for the one you enjoy most.
Interesting to hear Tony's comments as I was on the same Walshy day this week. I could get my 120 S1 (major mod is a c/r box) up to 90 on the straight before the high speed bend. I think terminal speed has as much to do with how you start the straight as the power of the car. Perhaps more tellingly is that when I was paxing with Tony around the 'circuit' I can't say Tony's car really felt any faster in terms of acceleration than mine (it was all 2/3 gear stuff) - I'd be interested to hear what Tony thought. The point I'm making is that the differences in performance are of the sort that need to be measured rather than anything you can actually feel.
I would add that an Exige S (with performance pack) I drove at Llandow recently definately felt faster than any Elise varient I'd experienced before.
Completely agree Tim, a better test was the coned circuit where everyone was within a second or two of each other after 3 laps. Realistically, on the road, I really don't think there is much between any of the NA cars out there. Interesting to hear Tony's comments as I was on the same Walshy day this week. I could get my 120 S1 (major mod is a c/r box) up to 90 on the straight before the high speed bend. I think terminal speed has as much to do with how you start the straight as the power of the car. Perhaps more tellingly is that when I was paxing with Tony around the 'circuit' I can't say Tony's car really felt any faster in terms of acceleration than mine (it was all 2/3 gear stuff) - I'd be interested to hear what Tony thought. The point I'm making is that the differences in performance are of the sort that need to be measured rather than anything you can actually feel.
I would add that an Exige S (with performance pack) I drove at Llandow recently definately felt faster than any Elise varient I'd experienced before.
21TonyK said:
Completely agree Tim, a better test was the coned circuit where everyone was within a second or two of each other after 3 laps. Realistically, on the road, I really don't think there is much between any of the NA cars out there.
I'd disagree very slightly - between the 111S and N/A Exige, I personally think the stock supplied tyres are very different in terms of performance, and you might notice, even in road use. Change the rubber to match, and I'd probably have to agree completely. Tol
The Pits said:
Sorry, just seen you've got a Griff. Ignore the above paragraph, you need an R at the very least! If you want TVR straight line mentalism you might need to look at a Honda engined elise (which you can get for the price of an R)!
Hmmm...you are wise Mr Pits.I've now driven the 111S. I have to say - all due respect to 111S owners - it's a great car. Well balanced, brilliant handling, road-holding, steering etc. A lovely total package.
But, I'm afraid, coming from a 4.3 litre Big Valve Griffith (250-260 actual horse power, 1060 kgs) I was disappointed with the acceleration. I mean fair's fair - for a 1.8 it goes like stink, but I'm afraid I'd miss the kick in the back.
111R it must be then.
The 111R I had a ride in popped on overrun - do they all do that? The 111S exhibited no such tomfoolery. Obviously being a Griff owner I like tomfoolery.
Finally, with respect to the 111S crowd, I should say I'm not too concerned about raw numbers, or performance much past 80-90. It's seat of the pants driving experience I'm after. The need to rev, the quality of the gearchange, the engine noise. I don't partcularly want waves of torque and smooth cam change-over. I like rough edges. Maybe the Jekyll and Hyde Toyota engine will give me that where the K VVC is, in fact, a more refined engine than I actually want.
Desperately trying not to tread on anybody's toes here - just trying to explain my priorities.
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