For the BIB's.
Discussion
Hypothetical question for the good guys on here.
What would it take to make you quit the job? If for instance rules were introduced that directly conflicted with what the police force is supposed to all about, in this case, serving the public trust; suppose it was changed to serve government directly? Say as a protection force to simply do the bidding of those in power? Is there anything thatd conflict to such a degree that youd say "aw bollox to it"?
Had a
or two, dont think its been asked before, so i ponder stuff better/differently..(not driving tho guys!) so what ya think?
>>> Edited by deltaf on Saturday 20th September 22:15
What would it take to make you quit the job? If for instance rules were introduced that directly conflicted with what the police force is supposed to all about, in this case, serving the public trust; suppose it was changed to serve government directly? Say as a protection force to simply do the bidding of those in power? Is there anything thatd conflict to such a degree that youd say "aw bollox to it"?
Had a
or two, dont think its been asked before, so i ponder stuff better/differently..(not driving tho guys!) so what ya think? >>> Edited by deltaf on Saturday 20th September 22:15
deltaf said:Deltaf - some recent 'abuses' of legislation - eg. Terrorism Act 2000 (Upper Fairford), Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001 (London) and Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (recently cited on this Forum re photographing 'scamera vans') would suggest that the situation might already be extant.
Hypothetical question for the good guys on here.
What would it take to make you quit the job? If for instance rules were introduced that directly conflicted with what the police force is supposed to all about, in this case, serving the public trust; suppose it was changed to serve government directly? Say as a protection force to simply do the bidding of those in power? Is there anything thatd conflict to such a degree that youd say "aw bollox to it"?
Had a
>>> Edited by deltaf on Saturday 20th September 22:15
Some quotes that resonate here:
"If you have 10,000 regulations, you destroy all respect for the law." -- Winston Churchill
"Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges." (The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws.) -- Publius Cornelius Tacitus
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way
around the laws." -- Plato
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their consciences." -- C. S. Lewis
"There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted and you create a nation of law-breakers." -- Ayn Rand, "Atlas Shrugged", Part II, Chapter 3
"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong." -- Voltaire
Streaky
deltaf said:
Hypothetical question for the good guys on here.
What would it take to make you quit the job? If for instance rules were introduced that directly conflicted with what the police force is supposed to all about, in this case, serving the public trust; suppose it was changed to serve government directly? Say as a protection force to simply do the bidding of those in power? Is there anything thatd conflict to such a degree that youd say "aw bollox to it"?
Had a
>>> Edited by deltaf on Saturday 20th September 22:15
Funny you should mention this... but I've been teetering for a while....
Fed up with the politics and trying to be a business which the police service clearly is not.
New management styles have introduced a lack of understanding and induce a loss of compassion where previously there was bucket loads.
The obvious inability to deal with the simple and the straightforward as more bureaucratic hurdles are concreted in our way.
The insistance that policing is all about performance figures in key areas and the reality that all else suffers as a result.
The answer to the question is therefore these circumstances already exist - as Streaky has been rifling his Cambridge Book Of Contextual Quotes, (beat me to it
) he has produced a raft of historic but accurate quotataions. Albeit we don't march around with guns 'disappearing people' as in certain parts of the world, enforcement of unpopular legislation creates such bad publicity, that for the government to introduce more makes me sick - to the back teeth that is. DeltaF - I think that this is a wise question to have asked and I hope others are honest in their responses. I feel the answers may surprise a lot of the anti-police posters who frequent these forae.
You asked it after a few beers... I've answered after a lemsip and some foul-tasting expectorant....
Tivster
madant69 said:
Blimey Streaky...I'm impressed 
Seriously though, the question should have been, "If someone gave you a job tomorrow with the same salary, benefits, pension and security would you leave?"
They pretty much got you by the nads from about 5 years onwards
Got to add on the basis of what you said that I'm lucky I guess, cos I have an alternative 'trade' as a scientist of ill repute - don't ask I may have to answer. I also have been tucked into Communication Technology and IT for some time...
So really I could walk... sometimes I wonder why I haven't..
That is a very good question......
When i joined the Police Force some 20 yrs ago i joined because it was seen as a secure career which had a lot of possibilities and the scope for an endless amount of fun.
During this time there have been so many changes that ive really lost count.
First, we went from a Force to a Service and working practices have changed so much that you really do have to watch what you are saying ALL of the time.
Some of the changes are without a doubt....for want of a better word,progress. This was undoubtadly both welcomed and needed but there have been so many beurocratic changes that havent been so successful.
Then there is the Criminal justice system itself which has still got so many problems that it is floored.
Its hard enough working for an organisation, dealing with things on a day to day basis that you know are wrong but on the face of it you are just a small cog in a very complex clock.
The saddest aspect in my opinion at the moment is the number of new personel, or lack of experince to put it bluntly.
The public are not blameless in all of this and have got in my opinion the Police Service that they deserve.
All that said, its still a very worthwhile job and i still enjoygoing to work but nowadays its merely a job that pays the mortgage etc etc.
I wouldnt like to do anything else, basically because this is my trade/skill and i along with thousands of others am counting down the days.
The pension (at the moment) is still a very good proposition and gives light at the end of a very dimly lit tunnel.
That said, i wouldnt swap it for the world.
When i joined the Police Force some 20 yrs ago i joined because it was seen as a secure career which had a lot of possibilities and the scope for an endless amount of fun.
During this time there have been so many changes that ive really lost count.
First, we went from a Force to a Service and working practices have changed so much that you really do have to watch what you are saying ALL of the time.
Some of the changes are without a doubt....for want of a better word,progress. This was undoubtadly both welcomed and needed but there have been so many beurocratic changes that havent been so successful.
Then there is the Criminal justice system itself which has still got so many problems that it is floored.
Its hard enough working for an organisation, dealing with things on a day to day basis that you know are wrong but on the face of it you are just a small cog in a very complex clock.
The saddest aspect in my opinion at the moment is the number of new personel, or lack of experince to put it bluntly.
The public are not blameless in all of this and have got in my opinion the Police Service that they deserve.
All that said, its still a very worthwhile job and i still enjoygoing to work but nowadays its merely a job that pays the mortgage etc etc.
I wouldnt like to do anything else, basically because this is my trade/skill and i along with thousands of others am counting down the days.
The pension (at the moment) is still a very good proposition and gives light at the end of a very dimly lit tunnel.
That said, i wouldnt swap it for the world.
Deltaf
A very interesting question. One that has not been far away from me personally for quite a few years now. As someone eles e stated above from the completeion of about 5 years service, they have got you in relation to financial security and especially if you joined at a more mature age.
The difficulty for me is the moral aspect of continuing to provide a service that is no longer respected by the people that it is designed to serve.
Young people have different values which are reflected in their attitude towards each other and values which to a large extent are an attitude of self indulgance with no reponsibility attached for their actions.
What I am trying to say is that Central Govt are not applying or providing the correct tools to allow the Police to get the high ground back. Young people are the future of this country and it is them that will ultimately shape that future. Govt are only concerned with the protection of individual rights and freedoms at the expense of moral and legal obligations. Young people have a completely different outlook on what is acceptable and Govt do not respond to challenge that behaviour.
The legal system is designed and tinkered with to get the absolute cheapest scenario by using the most frugal means possible at the point of delivery but has done nothing to address the private sector within the law. Modernisation is at a premium with the new Police acts which arrive from the Home office in a plethora of directives and new laws, whilst nothing is done to streamline and modernise the antiquated judicuary and self serving law society. Mainly because there are a huge number of lawyers that sit in Parliament and it is not in the interests of parliament to take away the foundations of the cream they enjoy from the current situation. It is however important to get 'best value' from the service at the point of its public funded delivery.
What would be the point I would say enough is enough?
I think that point happened a few years ago now, but if I and others of the same opinions as me threw in the towel, who else would try to redress the balance in the system. It is still possible but you have to make the system work for you rather than fight against it.
The whole thing is a complete mess, and for me only another 7 years before I can turn my back on the problems this Govt is avoiding on the basis of lining their own pockets.
A very interesting question. One that has not been far away from me personally for quite a few years now. As someone eles e stated above from the completeion of about 5 years service, they have got you in relation to financial security and especially if you joined at a more mature age.
The difficulty for me is the moral aspect of continuing to provide a service that is no longer respected by the people that it is designed to serve.
Young people have different values which are reflected in their attitude towards each other and values which to a large extent are an attitude of self indulgance with no reponsibility attached for their actions.
What I am trying to say is that Central Govt are not applying or providing the correct tools to allow the Police to get the high ground back. Young people are the future of this country and it is them that will ultimately shape that future. Govt are only concerned with the protection of individual rights and freedoms at the expense of moral and legal obligations. Young people have a completely different outlook on what is acceptable and Govt do not respond to challenge that behaviour.
The legal system is designed and tinkered with to get the absolute cheapest scenario by using the most frugal means possible at the point of delivery but has done nothing to address the private sector within the law. Modernisation is at a premium with the new Police acts which arrive from the Home office in a plethora of directives and new laws, whilst nothing is done to streamline and modernise the antiquated judicuary and self serving law society. Mainly because there are a huge number of lawyers that sit in Parliament and it is not in the interests of parliament to take away the foundations of the cream they enjoy from the current situation. It is however important to get 'best value' from the service at the point of its public funded delivery.
What would be the point I would say enough is enough?
I think that point happened a few years ago now, but if I and others of the same opinions as me threw in the towel, who else would try to redress the balance in the system. It is still possible but you have to make the system work for you rather than fight against it.
The whole thing is a complete mess, and for me only another 7 years before I can turn my back on the problems this Govt is avoiding on the basis of lining their own pockets.
tonyrec said:
[snip]First, we went from a Force to a Service[snip]
tonyrec - Aye, there's the rub! Somewhere in changing from a 'Force' that was respected by the common man and the criminal alike, to a 'Service' that is vilified by an ever increasing percentage of the population, something happened. Maybe someone here can identify what it (or more probably 'they' - for there will be more than one simple cause) was.
Perhaps it was just the fact of calling it a 'Service' that triggered the change. It is often said that the Civil Service is a misnomer, for it is neither civil nor provides any useful service to those who pay for it. The Police Service has been tarred with the same brush.
The application of 'targets' - so beloved and yet mostly missed by this government - appears to drive the wedge deeper between the public expectations of a Police Force (Service) and what is actually delivered.
Once again, let me reiterate that I am not anti-police. I have the greatest respect for many policemen and two of my good friends are senior officers (one now a retired DCS). I have little respect for what policing (meaning the entire system from politicians to judiciary) has become. I have no respect for over-bearing police officers who threaten the public with laws that are not applicable to the circumstances and who thereby trade on the "ignorance of the law is no excuse" approach. I have absolutely no respect for those who practice deceit upon the public, distorting statistics (beyond the 'lies' end of the spectrum) and abusing the word 'safety' in the name of revenue generation.
End of rant (just got carried away)
. Streaky
Edited to add that madcop provided some of the answers as I was composing my reply - S
>> Edited by streaky on Sunday 21st September 12:19
Scotland Yard's own logo goes something like: "working for a safer London"
I think this weasel-type of statement says it all.
Admitting defeat in public
"working for" means we can only try, but never actually achieve
"safer" means it will never be safe
Ie, we'll do (what we regard as) our best, and that's that.
>> Edited by justme on Sunday 21st September 13:36
I think this weasel-type of statement says it all.
Admitting defeat in public
"working for" means we can only try, but never actually achieve
"safer" means it will never be safe
Ie, we'll do (what we regard as) our best, and that's that.
>> Edited by justme on Sunday 21st September 13:36
What you got to remember streak is that you WILL find utter w@nkers in ANY profession. I mean, think about all the times you've been out for a meal. You had some real w@nky waiters/service and some real amazing waiters/service, right?
Same with bobbies bro; I HATE some of the people who do the same job as me and funny thing is, you find most other people do too. But cause they're hapless pedants they toe the party line and the bosses love 'em. It's a self-replicating situation.
When I joined over 15 years ago I made a vow to myself that I'd never stick anyone on for something I would do. And so far (touch wood) I've not broken that vow. (Been nicked once meself though...long story best told over a pint )
Where was I? Bah lost my train of thought now lol...
Oh yeah. The job makes you laugh (sometimes makes you cry - twice in 15 years broke down like a baby on duty
) and it's fkin great looking at the passenger in your car and thinkin', "yeah, he'd take a knife for me" - not many commodity brokers can say that
And the potential for mischief is HUGE!! And you get to drive really fast!! And tell people to "shut-it!".
Anyway...um hope that helped. Such a huge subject really. It would be much easier to explain this if you collected us together and bought us a pint!
Same with bobbies bro; I HATE some of the people who do the same job as me and funny thing is, you find most other people do too. But cause they're hapless pedants they toe the party line and the bosses love 'em. It's a self-replicating situation.
When I joined over 15 years ago I made a vow to myself that I'd never stick anyone on for something I would do. And so far (touch wood) I've not broken that vow. (Been nicked once meself though...long story best told over a pint
) Where was I? Bah lost my train of thought now lol...
Oh yeah. The job makes you laugh (sometimes makes you cry - twice in 15 years broke down like a baby on duty
) and it's fkin great looking at the passenger in your car and thinkin', "yeah, he'd take a knife for me" - not many commodity brokers can say that And the potential for mischief is HUGE!! And you get to drive really fast!! And tell people to "shut-it!".
Anyway...um hope that helped. Such a huge subject really. It would be much easier to explain this if you collected us together and bought us a pint!
I joined the City of London Police in the mid 70s when there was a distinct 'firm within a firm'. I used to put myself about a bit and I upset one or two of their gang. I was then threatened, or at least my family were, and I came very close to leaving the Job. But, with the support of my wife - she's a diamond - I transferred to a County force. I know it was running away but they so was staying and giving in.
The hardest thing to accept is that only a few of the corrupt ones were punished - this after organising three armed raids in London! - the highest rank being Chief Inspector. The senior officer who was described by one of the corrupt ones, when talking to a 'wired' plain clothes DC, as 'the biggest unhung villian' got away free and stayed in the Job for another 20 years.
The police force you have today is probably the most honest it's been since I've been in, that's nearly 30 years. The lads certainly work harder than I did as a PC and I was known as a grafter. Everything wrong with the service originates from the Home Office with, as mentioned by so many others on this thread, nonsensical targets.
A young Chief Inspector said to me that, whatever he saw on the streets when off duty, he would not get involved as he didn't get paid enough. He's a superintendent now. Another time I was phoned at home for specialist advice by a DS involved in an attempt murder enquiry. I came in to see if I could help, only to find that the Senior Investigating Officer was at home cooking the Sunday lunch!
So attitudes change, some for the better as regards to corruption. I don't think the situation that existed in the City and Mets in the 70s would not be allowed to continue but the idea of service seems to have died. Doctors don't make home visits, police leave their warrant cards at home.
The Job can still be great, though, and you can go home after a shift knoing that you have made someone's day. But you do feel like killing a lawyer or MP most days.
Perhpas one day I will.
Derek
The hardest thing to accept is that only a few of the corrupt ones were punished - this after organising three armed raids in London! - the highest rank being Chief Inspector. The senior officer who was described by one of the corrupt ones, when talking to a 'wired' plain clothes DC, as 'the biggest unhung villian' got away free and stayed in the Job for another 20 years.
The police force you have today is probably the most honest it's been since I've been in, that's nearly 30 years. The lads certainly work harder than I did as a PC and I was known as a grafter. Everything wrong with the service originates from the Home Office with, as mentioned by so many others on this thread, nonsensical targets.
A young Chief Inspector said to me that, whatever he saw on the streets when off duty, he would not get involved as he didn't get paid enough. He's a superintendent now. Another time I was phoned at home for specialist advice by a DS involved in an attempt murder enquiry. I came in to see if I could help, only to find that the Senior Investigating Officer was at home cooking the Sunday lunch!
So attitudes change, some for the better as regards to corruption. I don't think the situation that existed in the City and Mets in the 70s would not be allowed to continue but the idea of service seems to have died. Doctors don't make home visits, police leave their warrant cards at home.
The Job can still be great, though, and you can go home after a shift knoing that you have made someone's day. But you do feel like killing a lawyer or MP most days.
Perhpas one day I will.
Derek
Derek,
I’m not a copper, but I know what you mean about lawyers. I’ll not bore you with my experiences, but thought you might like to hear of an incident that my friend (a builder) reported. It happened only a couple of days ago.
Background.
The builder wants paying but punter reckons the job wasn’t done right. Builder offered to put matters right but punter paid another builder and won’t pay my mate. It’s actually worse than that because the punter, having not paid, wants my mate to pay damages amounting to what he paid the second builder, minus what he didn’t pay in the first place.
In Court the other day.
J to Punter. Q. How much have you paid your lawyers? A. £37,000
J to Builder Q. How much have you paid your lawyers? A. £22,000
J. Let me get this right. Between you you’ve paid lawyers £59,000 so far!
J to Both parties. Q. How much was the disputed amount? A. £18,000 (and negotiable)
J to Lawyers. Sounds like you’re onto a damn good meal ticket – you should be ashamed of yourselves!
If only more Judges made their feelings known.
Den.
I’m not a copper, but I know what you mean about lawyers. I’ll not bore you with my experiences, but thought you might like to hear of an incident that my friend (a builder) reported. It happened only a couple of days ago.
Background.
The builder wants paying but punter reckons the job wasn’t done right. Builder offered to put matters right but punter paid another builder and won’t pay my mate. It’s actually worse than that because the punter, having not paid, wants my mate to pay damages amounting to what he paid the second builder, minus what he didn’t pay in the first place.
In Court the other day.
J to Punter. Q. How much have you paid your lawyers? A. £37,000
J to Builder Q. How much have you paid your lawyers? A. £22,000
J. Let me get this right. Between you you’ve paid lawyers £59,000 so far!
J to Both parties. Q. How much was the disputed amount? A. £18,000 (and negotiable)
J to Lawyers. Sounds like you’re onto a damn good meal ticket – you should be ashamed of yourselves!
If only more Judges made their feelings known.
Den.
madant69 said:And the good ones get tipped, while the bad ones get complained about ... after I've eaten!
What you got to remember streak is that you WILL find utter w@nkers in ANY profession. I mean, think about all the times you've been out for a meal. You had some real w@nky waiters/service and some real amazing waiters/service, right? [snip]
206xsi said:Best bit of 'wall writing' I ever saw was in Cambridge, UK. Someone had sprayed "Graffiti is vandalism" and underneath an more erudite hand had written, "And are plural!"
forae
I thought the plural of forum was fora?
Brilliant! - Streaky (O/T, but couldn't resist)
Kitcarman,
I've just found out who you are. I came round your workshop when I was in Brighton in 1985 or six. I was on patrol and being nosey.
I had a kit car myself, a Ginetta, and I must admit to be impressed by your hospitality and skill in fibreglassing. Nice to see how successful you've been. I see your Cobra replacars all around.
I've got another Ginetta at the moment, a G32 so not a kicar.
Regards
I've just found out who you are. I came round your workshop when I was in Brighton in 1985 or six. I was on patrol and being nosey.
I had a kit car myself, a Ginetta, and I must admit to be impressed by your hospitality and skill in fibreglassing. Nice to see how successful you've been. I see your Cobra replacars all around.
I've got another Ginetta at the moment, a G32 so not a kicar.
Regards
Derek Smith said:
Doctors don't make home visits, police leave their warrant cards at home.
Derek
Huh!, I'm a doctor, and I don't know a single doctor who doesn't do home visits.
Sorry to hear all these posts as it sounds like the police are about to fall apart.
In my opinion only three things keep you in a job
1) Money, well we can ignore that one for both you lot and I. Both employed by the government, need I say more.
2) Peer group enjoyment. Very individual, and can occur in any job regardless of type.
3) Respect/satisfaction gained from the job. Now thats where we differ, although I think we're catching you up. Everyone over 60 has great respect for the doctor and plod. Come to see me in suits and ties, polite friendly.
A proportion of the under 30's just make my life hell. They demand everything because it costs money, have no respect for anyone. For example, 26 year came in eating a sandwich! During the consultation continued to eat it with a can of coke balanced on her knee. Then when her mobile phone rang she answered it in the middle of the consultation and continued to have a conversation on it with her boyfriend while I was sitting there!
Julian64 said:
Doctors don't make home visits, police leave their warrant cards at home.
Derek
Huh!, I'm a doctor, and I don't know a single doctor who doesn't do home visits.
Sorry to hear all these posts as it sounds like the police are about to fall apart.
In my opinion only three things keep you in a job
1) Money, well we can ignore that one for both you lot and I. Both employed by the government, need I say more.
2) Peer group enjoyment. Very individual, and can occur in any job regardless of type.
3) Respect/satisfaction gained from the job. Now thats where we differ, although I think we're catching you up. Everyone over 60 has great respect for the doctor and plod. Come to see me in suits and ties, polite friendly.
A proportion of the under 30's just make my life hell. They demand everything because it costs money, have no respect for anyone. For example, 26 year came in eating a sandwich! During the consultation continued to eat it with a can of coke balanced on her knee. Then when her mobile phone rang she answered it in the middle of the consultation and continued to have a conversation on it with her boyfriend while I was sitting there!
Julian, I have the utmost respect for doctors / medical staff as a whole.
You are absolutely spot on with your quote.
I suppose you are in a no win situation sometimes, at least if someone steps over the line I can lock them up and apply 'reasonable force'
Mind you, I suppose you can use a blunt needle!!
Regards,
Mike.
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