Question about ignition upgrade
Discussion
Hi guys.
Has any of you tried any ignition upgrades such as MSD or CRANE on your Turbo Esprit? And how about the coils and leads?? I heard these will help to burn the fuels better and reduces emission at idle.
I leave my car at underground parking and when I go warming it up in the morning, I do get complaints for excessive smell comparing to those nice new cars. So, in order to reduce their risk of getting a cancer because of me, I want to improve this problem as soon as possible. Can any one kindly give me some advice on this?
I am running a carburated Turbo HC with premium fuels.
Has any of you tried any ignition upgrades such as MSD or CRANE on your Turbo Esprit? And how about the coils and leads?? I heard these will help to burn the fuels better and reduces emission at idle.
I leave my car at underground parking and when I go warming it up in the morning, I do get complaints for excessive smell comparing to those nice new cars. So, in order to reduce their risk of getting a cancer because of me, I want to improve this problem as soon as possible. Can any one kindly give me some advice on this?
I am running a carburated Turbo HC with premium fuels.
zak_62 said:
Hi guys.
Has any of you tried any ignition upgrades such as MSD or CRANE on your Turbo Esprit? And how about the coils and leads?? I heard these will help to burn the fuels better and reduces emission at idle.
I leave my car at underground parking and when I go warming it up in the morning, I do get complaints for excessive smell comparing to those nice new cars. So, in order to reduce their risk of getting a cancer because of me, I want to improve this problem as soon as possible. Can any one kindly give me some advice on this?
I am running a carburated Turbo HC with premium fuels.
Zak,
As in all things Lotus, there's usually an alternative depending upon the size of you wallet and your particular degree of Sado-Masochistic tendencies...
I know several guys running the Crane multi-spark discharge system (MSD). They have good, but perhaps not sterling results. I investigated these systems for my car and found nothing especially superior to the Lucas Constant Energy Ignition system we both currently are running.
Another way to go would be adding an engine control system such as those produced by Electromotive Engine Controls (www.electromotive-inc.com). Their control systems rely on a much more accurate crank, or cam triggered control system firing a 2-pak coil pak. This can be either a stand alone ignition such as their HPV-1 or their new multi-Map programmable HPX system. These are true ECU control systems.
The crank trigger offers a +/- ¼° accuracy, and since they use multi-coil paks, a more consistent, longer and hotter spark is produced. Also, the HPX sytem allows the integration of RPM and engine load factors to a programmable ECU allowing a greater degree of dynamic response as well as programming response parameters through a PC driven software program. This is ideal for the changing conditions present in a Turbo application. Included in this system are a vacuum advance system, MAP sensor system and a built-in adjustable Rev Limiter, adjustable all the way to 15K RPM, with both soft and hard limits. (this unit is near the top of my Wish List for my '85 Turbo). Not cheap, but well worth the price.
Electromotive is a major player in the electronic ignition field holding several patents and much of their business involves producing proprietary systems and components to several New Car Manufacturers. Hope this helps. Happy Motoring!... Jim'85TE
>> Edited by lotusguy on Sunday 21st September 16:50
I have never heard anything good about the Crane units. Now MSD, on the other hand, I have never heard anything bad about. NASCAR cars run MSD6AL boxes basically, in a special extra-vibration resistant case. Electrically, it is identical to a MSD6AL. If you run one coil (I don't know your setup), then a MSD6A is probably your best bet if you have a rev limiter, and the 6AL if you don't have a rev limiter and want one. I have a 6A on my Toyota 4AGE 20 valve motor and I was very happy with it. (Motor is now in my not-yet-finished Seven). When I get some bucks together, I am going to buy the MSD ignition for my 89 Esprit. As I have two coils, I will need either two MSD 6A's or one of their multi-coil models, which electrically is two MSD 6A's in one box. Costs slightly more than two 6A's too. Summit or Jegs have the best prices. Frequently less than what used ones go for on eBay.
Dr.Hess
Dr.Hess
Wow~ How much is that TEC system anyway?? And I can remove some of the vaccuum hoses and the distributors with this system installed, right? But I am worrying about the setting up procedure. Sounds very complicated as I never really played around ignition timing before.
What I had in mind is the MSD-6BTM Unit. Which is basically a MSD-6AL with a boost retard control for turbo and supercharged. If the price runs out pretty close, I might as well go big on it.
What I had in mind is the MSD-6BTM Unit. Which is basically a MSD-6AL with a boost retard control for turbo and supercharged. If the price runs out pretty close, I might as well go big on it.
dr.hess said:
I have never heard anything good about the Crane units. Now MSD, on the other hand, I have never heard anything bad about. NASCAR cars run MSD6AL boxes basically, in a special extra-vibration resistant case. Electrically, it is identical to a MSD6AL. If you run one coil (I don't know your setup), then a MSD6A is probably your best bet if you have a rev limiter, and the 6AL if you don't have a rev limiter and want one. I have a 6A on my Toyota 4AGE 20 valve motor and I was very happy with it. (Motor is now in my not-yet-finished Seven). When I get some bucks together, I am going to buy the MSD ignition for my 89 Esprit. As I have two coils, I will need either two MSD 6A's or one of their multi-coil models, which electrically is two MSD 6A's in one box. Costs slightly more than two 6A's too. Summit or Jegs have the best prices. Frequently less than what used ones go for on eBay.
Dr.Hess
Hi,
I would agree that I have heard more positive things about the MSD ignition than the Crane units, but I don't think a CD (Capacitive Discharge) system is really the best way to go, nor do any major engine/car manufacturers that I know of.
Part of the reason is the way that a CD system works. Although many such systems claim multiple sparks, in reality, most fade above 3k RPM to a single spark, albeit a hot one, for a very short duration. They do not make more energy. They release a given amount of energy, through many sparks of shorter duration. This is due to the recycle time of both the capacitor and the ignition coil which is constant and cannot be sped up as engine demand (RPM) requires. At higher RPMs the capacitor and ignition coil, cannot fully recharge between discharge cycles and thus, discharge only a partial charge. Spark duration, or the time that a combustion spark lives in the cylinder, has been found to be more important/beneficial in the amount of total energy it imparts above a certain base threshold.
A multi-spark CD Ignition does not charge the ignition coil directly, rather it uses the 1:100 winding ratio as a type of transformer. 12 volts from the electrical system is converted to several hundred volts and stored in a capacitor, an electical storage unit, somewhat akin to a battery. When the spark is required (as determined by a standard, somewhat inaccurate, mechanical distributor), this capacitor discharges into the ignition coil, immediately producing a spark of 30,000 to 50,000 volts, but with a duration of only 0.1 to 0.3 milliseconds (0.0003 seconds), this means that less total ignition energy is imparted to the Air/Fuel mixture.
By using more than one coil, the time available to fully charge any given coil increases many times, allowing it to fully charge between discharge cycles. This allows for an inductive spark. An inductive spark uses only enough voltage to arc the gap of the Spark Plug, but supplies this spark for a much longer duration, to as much as 2+ milliseconds, imparting much more ignition energy to the Air/Fuel mixture in the process. So, more total energy is imparted to the cylinder, admittedly at a lower power level, but, nonetheless, more than sufficient for complete combustion to take place. This spark duration can be expressed in terms of crank rotation, meaning that a constant spark is being supplied to the Air/Fuel mixture in the combustion cylinder for as much as 90° of crank rotation, or over a much longer timeframe. This results in more energy being released from a given volume of fuel which can then be converted to useful mechanical energy, making much more power.
One thing to bear in mind; when Lotus, amongst other manufacturers, started adding full electronic engine controls, they chose the multi-coil direct ignition systems over the indirect, multi-spark systems. Food for thought. Happy Motoring! Jim'85TE
>> Edited by lotusguy on Monday 22 September 06:43
zak_62 said:
Wow~ How much is that TEC system anyway?? And I can remove some of the vaccuum hoses and the distributors with this system installed, right? But I am worrying about the setting up procedure. Sounds very complicated as I never really played around ignition timing before.
What I had in mind is the MSD-6BTM Unit. Which is basically a MSD-6AL with a boost retard control for turbo and supercharged. If the price runs out pretty close, I might as well go big on it.
Zak,
Yes, this will do away with the vacuum advance and the distributor. You merely place a cap, which Lotus makes, over the end of the oil pump which previously accepted the distributor shaft. Lotus used this cap in the late '88 and pre-'89.5 Esprits with the GM Engine Management System (not Bosche). Once the chargecooler was introduced with the SE models, Lotus again used this 'power take-off' to drive the chargecooler pump. The cap, w/ 'O' ring seal, is less than $30.
The set-up is pretty easy. You attach a trigger wheel, a 58 toothed wheel, to the crankshaft, before the crank and 'V' belt pulleys, when the engine is at TDC. Then, you mount the pick-up sensor bracket to your AC or alternator brackets or attach to a sump bolt (this interprets the trigger wheel). Then mount the integral ECU/coil pak, usually on the engine bay sidewall (it is both shock and heat resistant, so can live in the hot engine bay environment, not recommended for the MSD or Crane boxes). Mount and connect the vacuum sensor to the vacuum line previously run to the distributor. An optional MAP sensor can be attched to the plenum and then you connect all the wires (They are idiot wires in that each has it own distinct connector - cannot do it wrong), clip your sparkplug wires to the coil-pak, supply battery power to the unit and start the car. Then, using a laptop or PC with the supplied connecting cord and software program, fine tune your timing, set advance curves and Rev limits, the windows based softawre makes this really easy, and you can go back in and modify it any number of times to get the performance you want. Extensive, but really fairly easy.
Go onto Electromotive's site and download the installation .pdf (free) to get a detailed description of what's involved. I know of one Esprit owner who has done this conversion and the results, documented on a dyno, are amazing. More power, greater fuel mileage and less pollutants. The base HPV-1 system is close to $700 and the HPX is more like $900, spendy, but far superior to any add-on ignition supplement - well worth saving your pennies for, I am. Happy Motoring! Jim'85TE
lotusguy said:
Wow~ How much is that TEC system anyway?? And I can remove some of the vaccuum hoses and the distributors with this system installed, right? But I am worrying about the setting up procedure. Sounds very complicated as I never really played around ignition timing before.
What I had in mind is the MSD-6BTM Unit. Which is basically a MSD-6AL with a boost retard control for turbo and supercharged. If the price runs out pretty close, I might as well go big on it.
Zak,
Yes, this will do away with the vacuum advance and the distributor. You merely place a cap, which Lotus makes, over the end of the oil pump which previously accepted the distributor shaft. Lotus used this cap in the late '88 and pre-'89.5 Esprits with the GM Engine Management System (not Bosche). Once the chargecooler was introduced with the SE models, Lotus again used this 'power take-off' to drive the chargecooler pump. The cap, w/ 'O' ring seal, is less than $30.
The set-up is pretty easy. You attach a trigger wheel, a 58 toothed wheel, to the crankshaft, before the crank and 'V' belt pulleys, when the engine is at TDC. Then, you mount the pick-up sensor bracket to your AC or alternator brackets or attach to a sump bolt (this interprets the trigger wheel). Then mount the integral ECU/coil pak, usually on the engine bay sidewall (it is both shock and heat resistant, so can live in the hot engine bay environment, not recommended for the MSD or Crane boxes). Mount and connect the vacuum sensor to the vacuum line previously run to the distributor. An optional MAP sensor can be attched to the plenum and then you connect all the wires (They are idiot wires in that each has it own distinct connector - cannot do it wrong), clip your sparkplug wires to the coil-pak, supply battery power to the unit and start the car. Then, using a laptop or PC with the supplied connecting cord and software program, fine tune your timing, set advance curves and Rev limits, the windows based softawre makes this really easy, and you can go back in and modify it any number of times to get the performance you want. Extensive, but really fairly easy.
Go onto Electromotive's site and download the installation .pdf (free) to get a detailed description of what's involved. I know of one Esprit owner who has done this conversion and the results, documented on a dyno, are amazing. More power, greater fuel mileage and less pollutants. The base HPV-1 system is close to $700 and the HPX is more like $900, spendy, but far superior to any add-on ignition supplement - well worth saving your pennies for, I am. Happy Motoring! Jim'85TE
Jim,
Do you know anyone who has done the complete TEC3 conversion on an Esprit?
I have some experience with the MSD6AL unit in a car that was fitted with an aftermarket turbo kit.
So here's my $.02 worth...
Without the MSD unit and with the turbo, the car would misfire randomly while on boost even with reduced spark gaps and an MSD coil. With the MSD, it would run clean thru the RPM range, even with a wider than stock gap on the spark plugs. So the unit does makes available more voltage (if required) to fire the sparkplug, at the expense of putting more strain on the cap, rotor and wires.
The wider spark gaps that it allows COULD help out somewhat in street drivability. It might NOT also. You might easily see more pollutants in an emissions test. Mine was slightly higher at idle. All in all it's a great (if hot running) system that you should NOT need in a stock vehicle that is engineered already for a turbo.
BTW, spiral wound plug wires are recommended.
So here's my $.02 worth...
Without the MSD unit and with the turbo, the car would misfire randomly while on boost even with reduced spark gaps and an MSD coil. With the MSD, it would run clean thru the RPM range, even with a wider than stock gap on the spark plugs. So the unit does makes available more voltage (if required) to fire the sparkplug, at the expense of putting more strain on the cap, rotor and wires.
The wider spark gaps that it allows COULD help out somewhat in street drivability. It might NOT also. You might easily see more pollutants in an emissions test. Mine was slightly higher at idle. All in all it's a great (if hot running) system that you should NOT need in a stock vehicle that is engineered already for a turbo.
BTW, spiral wound plug wires are recommended.
AZ88Turbo said:
Jim,
Do you know anyone who has done the complete TEC3 conversion on an Esprit?
Mark,
I do not. Of course the Tec3 system requires the engine be fuel injected, which of course your is. I do know it would be superior to the Bosche system in so far as it can be programmed whereas the K-jetronic cannot, and it can perform more total engine control, advancing/retarding the spark etc. It too, would do away with the distributor, supply the advantages of a twin coil-pak and adjustability of maps through it software program. Not compatible with my carburetted 'G' car, but it would be very attractive to me if I ran one of the Bosche cars. Happy Motoring! Jim'85TE
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