Can Williams ever make it back to the top?

[Mr_Thyroid]

They were in the hunt for the drivers championship up until the penultimate round in '03. And they won the final round in '04. But for several years now they've failed to show any real promise and with the might of Mercedes, Ferrari, Toyota, BMW, Renault, Honda and those fizzy drinks guys, is there any hope for them as long as they remain independant or are they destined to go the same way as Jordan and Minardi?

[Munter]

no

[FourWheelDrift]

If they had a major manufacturer backing them, they are only a customer Toyota team this year.

Perhaps VW/Audi when they pull the plug on the diesel LMS programme or SEAT if they start courting a young Spanish driver could enter, but not in the next few years. Give it at least 5 for the current meddling morons of the FIA to be voted out and some semblance of normality and stability of rules can be set.

[Scuffers]

can't see why not?

Ferarri went years with nothing, as have Mclaren before, etc etc etc...

just a case of things comming together, engine, car, driver etc.

[Munter]

Scuffers said:

can't see why not?

Ferarri went years with nothing, as have Mclaren before, etc etc etc...

just a case of things comming together, engine, car, driver etc.

Yeah but Ferrari Fiat have another revenue stream. Williams have nothing but advertising...

[John D.]

Of course they can.

Was'nt that long ago Torro Rosso was effectively Minardi (as the ITV commetary team drilled into us last race).

[flemke]

"Ever" is a fairly long time.

I'd think the bigger question is whether Williams will be around as an independent entity for much longer, especially as the two owners get closer to retirement.
Assuming that it will be around, and if the guy in the wig (the one who has no Nazi sympathies - really) gets his way in limiting budgets, there's no reason why Williams could not win again. Salary caps have worked well in other sports (or should I say, "have worked well in sports"?), so they may be feasible in F1, although they would be more difficult to implement. Common engines and gearboxes, limits on aero development and on testing days, limits on manpower - these all could level the playing field. Less than two years ago, Renault won the title with a much smaller budget than those of several other teams.
In a different environment, a talented, motivated, cohesive team like Williams could contend for the championship.

[Clevers]

Think you're right, the leadership team at Williams has got old and run out of ideas. Next stop for them is a sell out....to someone like the Porsche / VW conglomerate.

I also think the Senna incident took alot of energy and vitality out of their organisation during the middle part of the nineties...bit like Liverpool FC after Heysel and Hillsborough. Tbey don't seem to have adapted with the times and have entered gradual decline. Adrian Newey going saw them lose their competitive advantage.

[Airbag]

Clevers said:

Think you're right, the leadership team at Williams has got old and run out of ideas. Next stop for them is a sell out....to someone like the Porsche / VW conglomerate.

I also think the Senna incident took alot of energy and vitality out of their organisation during the middle part of the nineties...bit like Liverpool FC after Heysel and Hillsborough. Tbey don't seem to have adapted with the times and have entered gradual decline. Adrian Newey going saw them lose their competitive advantage.

I think they have suffered under the aero regs we've had recently, hopefully next year will see some sort of return to form.

[kevin ritson]

I think the key question is: can they make it back to the top whilst Frank and Patrick are at the helm? No disrespect to either, they're both true legends of the discipline, but they aren't getting any younger.

[matc]

I've always liked williams as a team, and don't like seeing them struggle; it would be a massive shame if they left the sport. It would be nice if we had another engine manufacturer enter the sport; I guess VAG entering would be quite interesting as they wouldn't exactly be short on budget.

[davidd]

Whomever I'm cheering for I would rather they were beaten by Williams....

Best team ever in my book, shame they are off the boil.

D

[Stuismyname]

Clevers said:

I also think the Senna incident took alot of energy and vitality out of their organisation during the middle part of the nineties...

Aside from the fact that they should still have won the '94 championship despite losing Senna, and did indeed win in 96 and 97?

I'm not sure you can link the loss of Senna to Williams' downturn. More likely, it's to do with budget, personnel / car design (incl failing to keep on top of the expansion in aero), engine supply, driver choice, and perhaps stagnation of management (so pretty much everything else then.!)

[Munter]

Stuismyname said:

Clevers said:

I also think the Senna incident took alot of energy and vitality out of their organisation during the middle part of the nineties...

Aside from the fact that they should still have won the '94 championship despite losing Senna, and did indeed win in 96 and 97?

I'm not sure you can link the loss of Senna to Williams' downturn. More likely, it's to do with budget, personnel / car design (incl failing to keep on top of the expansion in aero), engine supply, driver choice, and perhaps stagnation of management (so pretty much everything else then.!)

It's the cash thats hitting them. They won in the 90's because they had the most technically advanced car. But that technology was then banned. Aero became important and getting that right costs lots and lots of money. Williams simply do not have that money, hence poor performance despite the BMW backing a few years ago. They can't afford to buy the best engines either now. They need a 2nd way of making cash which can then be pumped into the team. Being taken over by BMW didn't happen, so I dont think a manufacturer will be the answer.... In fact I dont see an answer at all unless the new regs level the playing field.

[TheDetailDoctor]

Speaking an an Ex-Williams team member, they can make it back, but Patrick needs to look seriously at his choice of Technical Director.....

[flemke]

Munter said:

Stuismyname said:

Clevers said:

I also think the Senna incident took alot of energy and vitality out of their organisation during the middle part of the nineties...

Aside from the fact that they should still have won the '94 championship despite losing Senna, and did indeed win in 96 and 97?

I'm not sure you can link the loss of Senna to Williams' downturn. More likely, it's to do with budget, personnel / car design (incl failing to keep on top of the expansion in aero), engine supply, driver choice, and perhaps stagnation of management (so pretty much everything else then.!)

It's the cash thats hitting them. They won in the 90's because they had the most technically advanced car. But that technology was then banned. Aero became important and getting that right costs lots and lots of money. Williams simply do not have that money, hence poor performance despite the BMW backing a few years ago. They can't afford to buy the best engines either now. They need a 2nd way of making cash which can then be pumped into the team. Being taken over by BMW didn't happen, so I dont think a manufacturer will be the answer.... In fact I dont see an answer at all unless the new regs level the playing field.

Their position was not different from McLaren's. Ron Dennis made the decision to give up 40% of his equity, and some influence, in return for the means to compete at a higher level.
Williams chose to go the other way. He was free to do whatever he wished, and perhaps in some sense what he did at the time, and what he chose subsequently to do with BMW, was right for him. To a meaningful degree, however, what's happened to him was within his control.

[profstoff]

I'll be glad when the major manufacturers pull out of F1 and hand it back to the true enthusuatiasts like Frank Williams and Patrick Head. You need a major manufacturer behind you these days and I think Williams have struggled ever since they lost the BMW deal. They won't be front runners again until they get into bed with one of the majors. They didn't want to do that with BMW.

It'll be a shame if they go but past success does not guarantee future survival, witness BRM, Brabham, Lotus, Matra, Tyrell etc.

As previous posters have pointed out, they're not getting any younger. The probability is they will sell out to the Coca Cola Corporation or someone and the team will lose its original identity.

[williamp]

profstoff said:

I'll be glad when the major manufacturers pull out of F1 and hand it back to the true enthusuatiasts like Frank Williams and Patrick Head. You need a major manufacturer behind you these days and I think Williams have struggled ever since they lost the BMW deal. They won't be front runners again until they get into bed with one of the majors. They didn't want to do that with BMW.

It'll be a shame if they go but past success does not guarantee future survival, witness BRM, Brabham, Lotus, Matra, Tyrell etc.

As previous posters have pointed out, they're not getting any younger. The probability is they will sell out to the Coca Cola Corporation or someone and the team will lose its original identity.

I would like to agree, but I think the major manufacturers are too far ingrained within F1 to ever pull out. If Ferrari, Mercedes, BMW, Toyota, Honda and Renault all pull out, whats left? You'dd have a few chassis with no engines. And suddenly a lot of very expensive drivers with a lot of time on their hands. You wont be able to afford the best, so the sdrivers would be second rate. You might even see matt neal in an f1 car, God forbid...

[Munter]

flemke said:

Their position was not different from McLaren's. Ron Dennis made the decision to give up 40% of his equity, and some influence, in return for the means to compete at a higher level.
Williams chose to go the other way. He was free to do whatever he wished, and perhaps in some sense what he did at the time, and what he chose subsequently to do with BMW, was right for him. To a meaningful degree, however, what's happened to him was within his control.

Indeed it's all their own work. But I think the boat McLaren used has sailed. And I cant see anouther one on the current timetable.

[flemke]

Munter said:

flemke said:

Their position was not different from McLaren's. Ron Dennis made the decision to give up 40% of his equity, and some influence, in return for the means to compete at a higher level.
Williams chose to go the other way. He was free to do whatever he wished, and perhaps in some sense what he did at the time, and what he chose subsequently to do with BMW, was right for him. To a meaningful degree, however, what's happened to him was within his control.

Indeed it's all their own work. But I think the boat McLaren used has sailed. And I cant see anouther one on the current timetable.

For now, yes, although once the wig-wearing fuuckwit is out of the way, the formula is settled, and the economy gets back on track, there will be other opportunities.