HGF What's it all about? Why?
Discussion
Sorry for the barrage of Newbie questions
Ok, so as I prepare myself to launch into long term (I hope) Elise ownership and regular driving, I just wanted to clear up the major issue.
Head Gasket Failure.
What is the deal with this? I know that the K Series holds very little water and can be prone to overheating if too much is lost and this can lead to HGF, but is this the only reason or are there others?
What are the main causes? Is it just chance or is it due to overuse/abuse.
Thanks
Chris
Ok, so as I prepare myself to launch into long term (I hope) Elise ownership and regular driving, I just wanted to clear up the major issue.
Head Gasket Failure.
What is the deal with this? I know that the K Series holds very little water and can be prone to overheating if too much is lost and this can lead to HGF, but is this the only reason or are there others?
What are the main causes? Is it just chance or is it due to overuse/abuse.
Thanks
Chris
DamienCBR said:
Essentially ensure everything is warmed up before you give it the beans. This means the oil too, not just the STACK temp. Keeping to these rules should be no problem.
D
What he said - think that its cause is cool water hitting the cylinder heads - the temp differential can, sometimes, not as often as you'd think, rarely, now and again, cause the problem. AA warranty (£50pa?) should cover you if it happens (this is K series, i.e. Rover engines we're talking about). It is about £5-600 to repair if it does go horribly wrong.D
Warming the car up as above should mean the water and heads are closer temp wise.
Bigger prob in the Landrovers which use the same engine - they have bigger loads to deal with and may be driven less sympatheticaly.
Usual caveats apply - i.e. you hear a lot about it on tinternet as it's an event. Non-events (i.e. 'no HGF this week') don't get reported as much.
Don't thrash the thing when cold and it'll almost certainly be fine.
I as understand it, the problem is a combination of low coolant capacity, the location of the thermostat, plastic head locating pits and head bolts which tend to stretch. The way the coolant system suddenly floods the engine with cold water means you get nasty temperature gradients across the block/head interface, the weak location of the head means that this can lead to the head warping and the gasket being put under too much stress. Warm the engine up gently (and keep an eye on the coolant level) and the engine should head up gently enough that there isn't a problem.
If it does go, there are various uprated components which you can use in the repair which make the chances of it failing again much smaller.
I as understand it, the problem is a combination of low coolant capacity, the location of the thermostat, plastic head locating pits and head bolts which tend to stretch. The way the coolant system suddenly floods the engine with cold water means you get nasty temperature gradients across the block/head interface, the weak location of the head means that this can lead to the head warping and the gasket being put under too much stress. Warm the engine up gently (and keep an eye on the coolant level) and the engine should head up gently enough that there isn't a problem.
If it does go, there are various uprated components which you can use in the repair which make the chances of it failing again much smaller.
Is it worth mentioning letting it cool down nicely as well ? Switching the engine off with it up in the 90's after a hard run or sat in traffic would give heat-soak and boiling over I'd imagine ?
I upset the chap on the eurotunnel a few weeks back when I categorically stated that wasn't going to switch my engine off until it had cooled down (fans were running and it was around 98deg). Making me park 1" from the back of a range rover after stop-starting all the way through the train for about 15mins didn't help.
I upset the chap on the eurotunnel a few weeks back when I categorically stated that wasn't going to switch my engine off until it had cooled down (fans were running and it was around 98deg). Making me park 1" from the back of a range rover after stop-starting all the way through the train for about 15mins didn't help.
Wildfire, no need to apologise, you're asking all the right questions to the right people.
Seriously, HGF aint that big a deal as people will lead you to believe, 50 quid AA warranty will cover it, or if you go for an alternative inde warranty, covers it also. And thats just insurance for the unlikely event you do have a problem, but treat it well and they're great engines, mine gets given serious beans almost every weekend and quite a few nights, and its rock solid.
Now, go buy that Elise with your heart before your head says no.
Any more questions, keep em coming.
Seriously, HGF aint that big a deal as people will lead you to believe, 50 quid AA warranty will cover it, or if you go for an alternative inde warranty, covers it also. And thats just insurance for the unlikely event you do have a problem, but treat it well and they're great engines, mine gets given serious beans almost every weekend and quite a few nights, and its rock solid.
Now, go buy that Elise with your heart before your head says no.
Any more questions, keep em coming.
SeanyD,,50quid AA cover a year??? I thought it was about 15quid a month for the level of cover required to cover parts like HGF etc????
Ive had my S2 for 3 months, still not got around to getting the AA cover, as most Elise owners have, but it's a wise investment ( Especially if 50quid)
Ta
Graham,
Ive had my S2 for 3 months, still not got around to getting the AA cover, as most Elise owners have, but it's a wise investment ( Especially if 50quid)
Ta
Graham,
ROSSGR said:
SeanyD,,50quid AA cover a year??? I thought it was about 15quid a month for the level of cover required to cover parts like HGF etc????
Ive had my S2 for 3 months, still not got around to getting the AA cover, as most Elise owners have, but it's a wise investment ( Especially if 50quid)
Ta
Graham,
Could be, sorry I quoted an earlier post in this thread which did have a question mark against it. I took out an inde warranty and mines about 150 a year, but covers HGF, any almost anything else mechanical, excluding wear and tear, up to a value of £1000 per claim, and up to 5 claims a year.Ive had my S2 for 3 months, still not got around to getting the AA cover, as most Elise owners have, but it's a wise investment ( Especially if 50quid)
Ta
Graham,
Used it once so far and they coughed up no problem.
The £50 AA cover is an extra, there is a lot of info on SELOC about, essentially you still pay your £100 a year AA cover the other £50 is a for AA breakdown warranty, this way if you breakdown and it cant be fixed you can claim if you have the extra cover up to £500 or £600 less the £50-£60 excess.
SELOC members swear by it.
D
SELOC members swear by it.
D
Take the advice about warming up and down slowly: I give the car a good 20 minutes even in the summer before working it hard and after track work let the engine tick over through a fan on/off cycle before switching it off.
Ither issues that I believe that can lead to ghf are poor quality castings of the head (particularly later ones) leading to porosity of the head and the cylinder liners can drop, also leading to hgf.
At then end of the day its about a £500 fix at a specialist. Not neccessarily the biggest bill an Elise can present you with but they are generally very reliable little cars.
Ither issues that I believe that can lead to ghf are poor quality castings of the head (particularly later ones) leading to porosity of the head and the cylinder liners can drop, also leading to hgf.
At then end of the day its about a £500 fix at a specialist. Not neccessarily the biggest bill an Elise can present you with but they are generally very reliable little cars.
The above comments mostly cover it, but the cost can range from £600 or so for a standard HGF, through to £2k plus if you're very unlucky.
Mine went in for a suspected HGF, was done but still getting a CO2 reading in the expansion tank. When it was pulled apart again, a cracked liner was identified & a new liner, piston, conrod bought. Then found to be a cracked block, so engine out & complete rebuild; could have been cheaper at this stage to put a s/h engine in. All told (with issues sourcing a decent block) it was laid up for 7 weeks & cost north of £2k!
Don't want to put you off, but you never know exactly what you've got till you're too far in. There are a number of issues with the K, but none are insurmountable.
Mine went in for a suspected HGF, was done but still getting a CO2 reading in the expansion tank. When it was pulled apart again, a cracked liner was identified & a new liner, piston, conrod bought. Then found to be a cracked block, so engine out & complete rebuild; could have been cheaper at this stage to put a s/h engine in. All told (with issues sourcing a decent block) it was laid up for 7 weeks & cost north of £2k!
Don't want to put you off, but you never know exactly what you've got till you're too far in. There are a number of issues with the K, but none are insurmountable.
I always have a little smile when I look at the instruments in mine and there's a sticker along the bottom saying "do not exceed 3000rpm until water temp reaches 80C" - it's one of those small things that adds up to the impression of being in something a bit more special, focused, handbuilt.
Seems like sensible advice too - surely the oil would be warm enough by the time you've pootled about until the water hits 80c, right?
No idea if the sticker was on all S1s. Mine's one of the first batch of Sport 135s, which were apparently more susceptible to HGF.
Brad
Seems like sensible advice too - surely the oil would be warm enough by the time you've pootled about until the water hits 80c, right?
No idea if the sticker was on all S1s. Mine's one of the first batch of Sport 135s, which were apparently more susceptible to HGF.
Brad
braddo said:
I always have a little smile when I look at the instruments in mine and there's a sticker along the bottom saying "do not exceed 3000rpm until water temp reaches 80C" - it's one of those small things that adds up to the impression of being in something a bit more special, focused, handbuilt.
Seems like sensible advice too - surely the oil would be warm enough by the time you've pootled about until the water hits 80c, right?
No idea if the sticker was on all S1s. Mine's one of the first batch of Sport 135s, which were apparently more susceptible to HGF.
Brad
I have read that the oil takes longer to get up to temp than the water hence waiting for a while after the water is up to temp. (might be wrong though)Seems like sensible advice too - surely the oil would be warm enough by the time you've pootled about until the water hits 80c, right?
No idea if the sticker was on all S1s. Mine's one of the first batch of Sport 135s, which were apparently more susceptible to HGF.
Brad
D
DamienCBR said:
braddo said:
I always have a little smile when I look at the instruments in mine and there's a sticker along the bottom saying "do not exceed 3000rpm until water temp reaches 80C" - it's one of those small things that adds up to the impression of being in something a bit more special, focused, handbuilt.
Seems like sensible advice too - surely the oil would be warm enough by the time you've pootled about until the water hits 80c, right?
No idea if the sticker was on all S1s. Mine's one of the first batch of Sport 135s, which were apparently more susceptible to HGF.
Brad
I have read that the oil takes longer to get up to temp than the water hence waiting for a while after the water is up to temp. (might be wrong though)Seems like sensible advice too - surely the oil would be warm enough by the time you've pootled about until the water hits 80c, right?
No idea if the sticker was on all S1s. Mine's one of the first batch of Sport 135s, which were apparently more susceptible to HGF.
Brad
D
Yep. Once the coolant is up to full operating temperature, i'd wait another 10 minutes before giving it the full beans. In winter when the air temperature is freezing, i'd give it 15 (I do have an oil cooler on mine, though).
Saied said:
DamienCBR said:
braddo said:
I always have a little smile when I look at the instruments in mine and there's a sticker along the bottom saying "do not exceed 3000rpm until water temp reaches 80C" - it's one of those small things that adds up to the impression of being in something a bit more special, focused, handbuilt.
Seems like sensible advice too - surely the oil would be warm enough by the time you've pootled about until the water hits 80c, right?
No idea if the sticker was on all S1s. Mine's one of the first batch of Sport 135s, which were apparently more susceptible to HGF.
Brad
I have read that the oil takes longer to get up to temp than the water hence waiting for a while after the water is up to temp. (might be wrong though)Seems like sensible advice too - surely the oil would be warm enough by the time you've pootled about until the water hits 80c, right?
No idea if the sticker was on all S1s. Mine's one of the first batch of Sport 135s, which were apparently more susceptible to HGF.
Brad
D
Yep. Once the coolant is up to full operating temperature, i'd wait another 10 minutes before giving it the full beans. In winter when the air temperature is freezing, i'd give it 15 (I do have an oil cooler on mine, though).
Just had ours done, suspected HGF, cost £700 at Gugleimis in Northants, no other problems. We had a new water bottle fitted too as last one was so scummy.
Is it worth us looking into this extra warranty for HGF now we have had it done? I heard you can still have problems after getting it done. £50 a year seems quite reasonable
Is it worth us looking into this extra warranty for HGF now we have had it done? I heard you can still have problems after getting it done. £50 a year seems quite reasonable
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