Has there ever been a draw ie dead heat in uk drag racing??
Discussion
Took my 8 yr old son to the pod today and he asked me the question , what happens when there is a tie ???
Pretty much stumped me i dont ever recall there being a draw the odds of both racers getting the same reaction et and speed is pretty unlikely but has it ever happened and what happens afterwards???
Pretty much stumped me i dont ever recall there being a draw the odds of both racers getting the same reaction et and speed is pretty unlikely but has it ever happened and what happens afterwards???
Timing is done to 6 decimal places IIRC. on ET and reaction time so the odds are astronomical against it ever happening.
In the really unlikely event of ET and speed being exactly the same it would then go down to reaction time. If this was the same I would anticipate a re-run as I think I would safely assume a glitch in the timing system.
Edited to add that I cannot ever remember an occurrence in the last 30 years.
In the really unlikely event of ET and speed being exactly the same it would then go down to reaction time. If this was the same I would anticipate a re-run as I think I would safely assume a glitch in the timing system.
Edited to add that I cannot ever remember an occurrence in the last 30 years.
Edited by Dilligaf10 on Sunday 28th September 18:39
The winner of a Drag Race (assuming no earlier violations or infactions) has nothing to do with times or speeds, rather the first vehicle to cross the finish line. Identical times to the 20 millionth decimal place would not therefore result in a dead heat or tie.
Funnily enough, a Pal and I were discussing this today. We had a recollection of a race a few years ago (we thought Jon Morton may have been involved) in which the margin of victory (MOV) at the top end was less than 3mm. Since this is less than the permitted tolerance in the track length between the two lanes, this could theoretically have been an uncertain result. But there was still a measurable difference between the cars, and so a victor could be determined. There was a well documented Pro Stock race in Scandinavia a couple of years ago where the MOV was similar, and a brief search of the US sites suggested it could have been the closest 'Pro' race anywhere. The equipment could still separate them though...
Funnily enough, a Pal and I were discussing this today. We had a recollection of a race a few years ago (we thought Jon Morton may have been involved) in which the margin of victory (MOV) at the top end was less than 3mm. Since this is less than the permitted tolerance in the track length between the two lanes, this could theoretically have been an uncertain result. But there was still a measurable difference between the cars, and so a victor could be determined. There was a well documented Pro Stock race in Scandinavia a couple of years ago where the MOV was similar, and a brief search of the US sites suggested it could have been the closest 'Pro' race anywhere. The equipment could still separate them though...
I've been put geeked by Mr Crawford again 
For those that cannot be arsed to go to Eurodragster and read the European Bests info that is on there
:
The closest race in FIA competition was between Niclas Andersson and Marc Melhuizen in Pro Mod at the 2006 Main Event(round 2), a margin of victory for Niclas of 0.000016 seconds or approximately 1.539mm.
Considering the tollerances and variables, this margin of victory could not be as accurate as it appears, all that can be said is that Niclas got to the finish line first and it was bloody close !
I can't remember the Jon Morton race,though I do recall there being some very close races in the Super classes back when I had time to trawl through the data for such things.
For those that cannot be arsed to go to Eurodragster and read the European Bests info that is on there
:The closest race in FIA competition was between Niclas Andersson and Marc Melhuizen in Pro Mod at the 2006 Main Event(round 2), a margin of victory for Niclas of 0.000016 seconds or approximately 1.539mm.
Considering the tollerances and variables, this margin of victory could not be as accurate as it appears, all that can be said is that Niclas got to the finish line first and it was bloody close !
I can't remember the Jon Morton race,though I do recall there being some very close races in the Super classes back when I had time to trawl through the data for such things.
crikey said:
I've been out geeked by Mr Crawford again
Praise indeed, lol. I was going to come and say Hi today Andy, but with the final points calculations, new commentator bedding in, and knowing how busy it gets up there, I didn't want to get in the way.crikey said:
For those that cannot be arsed to go to Eurodragster and read the European Bests info that is on there :
The closest race in FIA competition was between Niclas Andersson and Marc Melhuizen in Pro Mod at the 2006 Main Event(round 2), a margin of victory for Niclas of 0.000016 seconds or approximately 1.539mm.
Thats the one I was thinking of! :The closest race in FIA competition was between Niclas Andersson and Marc Melhuizen in Pro Mod at the 2006 Main Event(round 2), a margin of victory for Niclas of 0.000016 seconds or approximately 1.539mm.
crikey said:
Considering the tollerances and variables, this margin of victory could not be as accurate as it appears, all that can be said is that Niclas got to the finish line first and it was bloody close !
Good point, well put!Jon C said:
The winner of a Drag Race (assuming no earlier violations or infactions) has nothing to do with times or speeds, rather the first vehicle to cross the finish line. Identical times to the 20 millionth decimal place would not therefore result in a dead heat or tie.
If the reaction times were identical it would be a tie wouldnt it as logically both vehicles would have the cross the line together ???liner33 said:
If the reaction times were identical it would be a tie wouldnt it as logically both vehicles would have the cross the line together ???
Doesn't matter. As Jon pointed out, the system will always be able to tell who crossed the line first.veryoldfart said:
would a double red light count as a dead heat?...
No, one of them will have red lit first.crikey said:
liner33 said:
If the reaction times were identical it would be a tie wouldnt it as logically both vehicles would have the cross the line together ???
Doesn't matter. As Jon pointed out, the system will always be able to tell who crossed the line first.veryoldfart said:
would a double red light count as a dead heat?...
No, one of them will have red lit first.I must be missing something here , if the system (which isnt 100% accurate) is always able to show a winner yet its is theorectically (spl?) possible for two racers to get identical reactions , and et and therefore cross the line in unison (wheelbase etc shouldnt matter), so however unlikely it is possible, with all the 100's of races every weekend all over the world it must have happened especially since the use of delay boxes
If two cars crossed the line together at the same instant but one had a quicker et due to SLOWER reaction how would that play out or does that not matter ie cross the line together and do a re-run
liner33 said:
with all the 100's of races every weekend all over the world it must have happened especially since the use of delay boxes
I think it's far more likely that it has never happened than that it has. We are after all talking about 0.000001 seconds, these days at least, and maybe the timer goes to further decimal places internally, I don't know.I've only been following the sport for thirty two years but I have never read or heard about a dead heat. Very occasionally I've seen the timing console at the Pod and Mantorp come up with a 0.000 margin of victory but you don't have to go many decimal places further before you find a number other than zero.
It is an interesting thought, though, what a timing system would do if it happened. Maybe we wouldn't need the LHC after all?
liner33 said:
crikey said:
liner33 said:
If the reaction times were identical it would be a tie wouldnt it as logically both vehicles would have the cross the line together ???
Doesn't matter. As Jon pointed out, the system will always be able to tell who crossed the line first.veryoldfart said:
would a double red light count as a dead heat?...
No, one of them will have red lit first.I must be missing something here , if the system (which isnt 100% accurate) is always able to show a winner yet its is theorectically (spl?) possible for two racers to get identical reactions , and et and therefore cross the line in unison (wheelbase etc shouldnt matter), so however unlikely it is possible, with all the 100's of races every weekend all over the world it must have happened especially since the use of delay boxes
If two cars crossed the line together at the same instant but one had a quicker et due to SLOWER reaction how would that play out or does that not matter ie cross the line together and do a re-run
I have literaly tens of thousands of runs on record from SPR and Mantorp and the Andersson/Melhuzen is the closest of them.
The system is about as accurate as can be, but as I've said is subject to tollerances and there are countless other variables. A dead heat, imho (which I believe out ranks yours
) will never happen. IF it did then yes, there would almost certainly be a re run.Eurodragster.com said:
liner33 said:
with all the 100's of races every weekend all over the world it must have happened especially since the use of delay boxes
I think it's far more likely that it has never happened than that it has. We are after all talking about 0.000001 seconds, these days at least, and maybe the timer goes to further decimal places internally, I don't know.I've only been following the sport for thirty two years but I have never read or heard about a dead heat. Very occasionally I've seen the timing console at the Pod and Mantorp come up with a 0.000 margin of victory but you don't have to go many decimal places further before you find a number other than zero.
It is an interesting thought, though, what a timing system would do if it happened. Maybe we wouldn't need the LHC after all?
Is there a appeal process in the event of a very close race???
Something else to take into the equation is the distance between the part of the vehicle which breaks the finish line beam to the rear of the front wheel (where the start line beam remakes) between each vehicle... (as if there wasn't enough variables already).
Edited to correct a typo...
Edited to correct a typo...
Edited by NitroWars on Tuesday 30th September 13:04
Which of course is totally eliminated by the rules Jim, hence the need to maximise the front overhang within the limits set by the rules of the individual classes. The winner can only be measured at the exact height of the 1320ft beam and its only this point on the vehicle that can possibly count toward the win or loss. If a driver chooses to have a shorter overhang and thus mean that they have to travel further to trip the beams down track, that is their perogative and should not be and isn't factored in in any way.
TheMighty said:
If a driver chooses to have a shorter overhang and thus mean that they have to travel further to trip the beams down track, that is their perogative and should not be and isn't factored in in any way.
Absolutely correct, but it does lead to some daft looking add-ons to the front of some cars when teams have figured this out 
Just out of interest, the timing system does indeed display winning margins to 6 decimal places, and at 150 mph the distance travelled in 0.000001 secs is: 0.067 mm. Or 2.64 thousandths of an inch.
Obviously those distances increase as the speeds increase (and vice versa) but as several others have stated, I too have never heard of a 'dead heat' declared by the timing equipment - though the law of averages suggests it must happen one day...
Obviously those distances increase as the speeds increase (and vice versa) but as several others have stated, I too have never heard of a 'dead heat' declared by the timing equipment - though the law of averages suggests it must happen one day...
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