Palmersport Formula Jaguar vs Radical

[edb49]

MSV/Palmer make an open-wheeled single-seater with a 3.0 Jag V6 at the heart:

http://www.palmersport.com/formulajaguar.aspx

I had a go today on this and it was absolutely amazing. What's the closest you could get to it in terms of straight line/cornering/braking performance and general feel?

Would a Radical SR4 with 250bhp and slicks be comparable?

[edb49]

To add to this, the instructor's reference lap of the Bedford West Circuit in this car was 76 seconds, and Evo have an SR3 1300 doing it in 77 secs:

[edb49]

Added again - think the Radical SR3 had road tyres on, and you need to add around two seconds because this was the old layout of the West Circuit. So on this information, the Radical is 3 seconds/lap slower on road tyres

[martvr]

I suppose it comes down to why you are making the comparison or at least what criteria you are using. The Radical that you refer to was eligible for the Evo test because it was road legal which I don't suppose is the case for the Palmersport? SR3's are more usually to be found with a 1500 engine so about 50bhp more than the 1300, not carrying the paraphernalia associated with SVA and as you mention running on slicks. That will make quite a difference to lap times.

Never driven a Palmersport but I think I heard someone mention that they aren't as roomy as the SR3 in the cockpit. I thought that a bit surprising though because the car looks quite big so not sure about that?

[fergus]

martvr said:

I suppose it comes down to why you are making the comparison or at least what criteria you are using. The Radical that you refer to was eligible for the Evo test because it was road legal which I don't suppose is the case for the Palmersport? SR3's are more usually to be found with a 1500 engine so about 50bhp more than the 1300, not carrying the paraphernalia associated with SVA and as you mention running on slicks. That will make quite a difference to lap times.

Never driven a Palmersport but I think I heard someone mention that they aren't as roomy as the SR3 in the cockpit. I thought that a bit surprising though because the car looks quite big so not sure about that?

driven one round Spa (just) - they are very cramped in the cockpit if you're over 6'2" (I'm 6'5")....

[edb49]

martvr said:

I suppose it comes down to why you are making the comparison or at least what criteria you are using.

I'm making the comparison because there are some aspects of the Palmersport that I really enjoyed, and I want to get something similar as a track day car with very occasional road use. I don't think I can justify a track-only car.

The bits I really enjoyed on the Formula Jaguar:
- Flappy paddle gearbox
- Really late braking
- Downforce/corner speeds
- Brake pedal that didn't move, you just pressed harder the more you wanted to stop
- Seeing the front wheels lock up

[martvr]

edb49 said:

martvr said:

I suppose it comes down to why you are making the comparison or at least what criteria you are using.

I'm making the comparison because there are some aspects of the Palmersport that I really enjoyed, and I want to get something similar as a track day car with very occasional road use. I don't think I can justify a track-only car.

The bits I really enjoyed on the Formula Jaguar:
- Flappy paddle gearbox
- Really late braking
- Downforce/corner speeds
- Brake pedal that didn't move, you just pressed harder the more you wanted to stop
- Seeing the front wheels lock up

Understood. To be fair then probably the best you could do would be to try a Radical as well. Response to your bullet points above:
Flappy paddle gearchange is available
Second and third bullets apply equally to the Radical
4th bullet - not sure that it 'doesn't move' but is very effective and not an issue.
last bullet - can't see the front wheels easily but if you like locking up approaching the corners I'm sure you'd see the blue smoke exiting the wheel arch vents which are quite visible.

Let us know how you get on.

[matt frost]

If the Radical (on road tyres) was 1 second slower than the JP1 (on slicks) then put the Radical on slicks and it would be 4 or 5 seconds faster. The difference between slicks and semi slicks is bigger than the jump between normal road tyres and semi-slicks. Also, the difference between a non-road legal car and a road legal one is pretty big too....and im guessing the JP1 was not road legal, and the Radical obviously was.

Plus factor in the fact that the guy driving the JP1 both knows the car better and the track better than the EVO mag tester who neither knows the car or the track as well.

Also, an SR3 1300, is not as fast as the typical SR3 1500, or SR4 and let alone SR8, which is faster than all the road Radicals.

The Radicals are ahead of the rest in the fairly affordable track day car league. i.e. not a Caparo.

[BertBert]

Depends on how you define close really

I have got a measily radical clubsport and have driven the Jag. In terms of experience they are quite similar. No flappy paddles on my rad,and actually nicer to drive. Lighter steering and nicer handling.

So no idea of lap times to compare, but that doesn't really matter in terms of the relative driving experiences.

Bert

[LMP]

Although the comparison lap is a 76 second lap, the actual lap record in a Formula Jaguar is 74.6 seconds.

This was recorded with the cars GPS system active preventing the driver from taking too much kerb and going off the tarmac. The traction control was also switched on.

Hope this helps.

[Jubal]

fergus said:

driven one round Spa (just) - they are very cramped in the cockpit if you're over 6'2" (I'm 6'5")....

I have had the same experience at Bedford. If it was my money buying a car like that I'd be "investing" in one that was eligible for a race series or two. Not sure if I'd enjoy being ~the fastest thing at a track day. My patience runs thin enough with the shonky car I have.

[the atomic punk]

If you are thinking about track dys, it is worth bearing in mind that AFAIK most don't allow single seaters.

[the atomic punk]

If you are thinking about track dys, it is worth bearing in mind that AFAIK most don't allow single seaters.

[BenElliottRacing]

the atomic punk said:

If you are thinking about track dys, it is worth bearing in mind that AFAIK most don't allow single seaters.

jp1 isn't a single seater

[BertBert]

I think we are talking about the Formula car, rather than the JP1, which is what I was comparing to my clubsport.

I wonder how much the formula palmer jag is?

Bert

[the atomic punk]

edb49 said:

MSV/Palmer make an open-wheeled single-seater with a 3.0 Jag V6 at the heart:

http://www.palmersport.com/formulajaguar.aspx

I had a go today on this and it was absolutely amazing. What's the closest you could get to it in terms of straight line/cornering/braking performance and general feel?

Would a Radical SR4 with 250bhp and slicks be comparable?

Er, I was responding to the original post comparing an FPA to a radical.

If the comparison was the JP1 to a radical, I actually think that there would be little in it and IMHO it would come down to budget - initial and ongoing.

[BertBert]

the atomic punk said:

edb49 said:

MSV/Palmer make an open-wheeled single-seater with a 3.0 Jag V6 at the heart:

http://www.palmersport.com/formulajaguar.aspx

I had a go today on this and it was absolutely amazing. What's the closest you could get to it in terms of straight line/cornering/braking performance and general feel?

Would a Radical SR4 with 250bhp and slicks be comparable?

Er, I was responding to the original post comparing an FPA to a radical.

If the comparison was the JP1 to a radical, I actually think that there would be little in it and IMHO it would come down to budget - initial and ongoing.

I'm afraid not! The original post was talking about the Palmer *Jaguar* formula car, not the formula audi.

So basically it's the drivetrain from the JP1 in a formula car. A JP1 with more aero.

Bert

[ScottL]

edb49 said:

martvr said:

I suppose it comes down to why you are making the comparison or at least what criteria you are using.

I'm making the comparison because there are some aspects of the Palmersport that I really enjoyed, and I want to get something similar as a track day car with very occasional road use. I don't think I can justify a track-only car.

The bits I really enjoyed on the Formula Jaguar:
- Flappy paddle gearbox
- Really late braking
- Downforce/corner speeds
- Brake pedal that didn't move, you just pressed harder the more you wanted to stop
- Seeing the front wheels lock up

Sequential gearbox aside, a KTM X-Bow fits the bill - significant downforce at speed.

If you can live without downforce a Caterham R500 (comes with a lovely sequential box). A lotus 2-11 or an Ariel Atom are also worth considering.

[the atomic punk]

BertBert said:

the atomic punk said:

edb49 said:

MSV/Palmer make an open-wheeled single-seater with a 3.0 Jag V6 at the heart:

http://www.palmersport.com/formulajaguar.aspx

I had a go today on this and it was absolutely amazing. What's the closest you could get to it in terms of straight line/cornering/braking performance and general feel?

Would a Radical SR4 with 250bhp and slicks be comparable?

Er, I was responding to the original post comparing an FPA to a radical.

If the comparison was the JP1 to a radical, I actually think that there would be little in it and IMHO it would come down to budget - initial and ongoing.

I'm afraid not! The original post was talking about the Palmer *Jaguar* formula car, not the formula audi.

So basically it's the drivetrain from the JP1 in a formula car. A JP1 with more aero.

Bert

er, read the quoted original post which says "MSV/Palmer make an open-wheeled single-seater with a 3.0 Jag V6 at the heart" (requoted above too).

In case you are out of date, the FPA used at the motorsport sensation day has been replaced this year with a jag engined equivalent which is, I think the "open-wheeled single-seater" that the original poster (see inserted original post quoted above) referred to in his original post.

As a result I don't think that the original poster was talking about the Palmer Jaguar formula car, which is an enclosed wheel prototype style car, but the open-wheeled single-seater Formula Palmer Jaguar with a 3.0 Jag V6 at the heart.

Clear?

[norasport]

Don't forget the Palmersport days are a competition and it's a pay and play.

Track days are not timed and the faster the car on corners particularly i.e add in downforce, then the more held up you will be, perhaps spoiling your fun but maybe not.

Think practical road and track without too many problems of reliability, cost etc think Caterham or go racing for the extra buzz or just keep going to Palmersport for less cost and much more driving that you would get at a typical race meeting. Or more direct cost than a track day (not sure about the total cost as it is highly dependant on costing factors, purchase price, tyres, maintainence etc etc) so why not sign up to palmesport at least once a year!