Denying a speeding charge
Discussion
I was just wondering...what happens if you just deny that it was your car that was,snapped by a gatso or similar?
We all know that cloning does happen, so surely if you claim it was not your car, you are introducing doubt, and they should have to provide evidence that it was your car, and not an identical one. And no speed camera could do that without a clear picture of the drivers face.
Or would you be considered guilty unless you can somehow prove that someone has copied your plates?
Is there a precedant for this kind of thing?
We all know that cloning does happen, so surely if you claim it was not your car, you are introducing doubt, and they should have to provide evidence that it was your car, and not an identical one. And no speed camera could do that without a clear picture of the drivers face.
Or would you be considered guilty unless you can somehow prove that someone has copied your plates?
Is there a precedant for this kind of thing?
And how would someone like me go about proving i was not where they say i was? I live alone and generally could not produce witnesses to verify the fact i was at home...Maybe a freindly neighbour could testify that he is pretty sure my car was outside my house that day...If i was married i do not think my wife could be forced to incriminate me,(?) and how would she know where i was when i was out in my car anyway? She would only have my word on it.
Is this another example of 'guilty until proven innocent'? It seems to me that it would be awfully easily to clone the car of a specific individual you do not like, the neighborhood traffic warden or something, and have his license taken off him....by driving through a few speed cameras in his area.
BTW this is hypothetical, I am not getting done for speeding.
>> Edited by Hedders on Saturday 27th September 20:53
Is this another example of 'guilty until proven innocent'? It seems to me that it would be awfully easily to clone the car of a specific individual you do not like, the neighborhood traffic warden or something, and have his license taken off him....by driving through a few speed cameras in his area.
BTW this is hypothetical, I am not getting done for speeding.
>> Edited by Hedders on Saturday 27th September 20:53
Nice jag.......ill use your plate...thanx..lol...joke! JOKE! honestly!
Im not quite sure about this. If youre presumed innocent until PROVEN guilty, then surely they have to prove your whereabouts, not you?
Otherwise, theyre presuming guilt, which is contrary to english law? Help someone???
Im not quite sure about this. If youre presumed innocent until PROVEN guilty, then surely they have to prove your whereabouts, not you?
Otherwise, theyre presuming guilt, which is contrary to english law? Help someone???
I am also wondering what would happen if i was to clone my own car, and have someone use th clone to trigger a revenue camera, while my parked car is getting a revenue ticket from a traffic warden a hundred miles away.. use their own system against them....
This would prove I had been cloned, and could possibly make any prosecution of future driving infractions quite difficult
>> Edited by Hedders on Saturday 27th September 22:15
Well, my car has no stickers or unusual markings on it.
But I would be more likely to buy a couple of ford escorts or something for this experiment, and make sure they are both just bog standard cars, with the same license plate.
Has anyone been cloned? or can any of the BiB comment on what they think the outcome might be...if it is a known fact that my car has been cloned, how can i get prosecuted by a speed camera?
But I would be more likely to buy a couple of ford escorts or something for this experiment, and make sure they are both just bog standard cars, with the same license plate.
Has anyone been cloned? or can any of the BiB comment on what they think the outcome might be...if it is a known fact that my car has been cloned, how can i get prosecuted by a speed camera?
You don't need to prove anything mate, no alibi required, these are not murder cases.
Just ask for the 'photographic evidence' and try to identify the driver. If you can't, then neither can they - they're stuck without the registered keeper giving a UK-licence holder who will accept responsibility.
...But if I had indications that my car were cloned, I'd notify the authorities pronto. It could be used for a *real* crime (as opposed to speeding bull) and then you WOULD need proofs and alibis!
Just ask for the 'photographic evidence' and try to identify the driver. If you can't, then neither can they - they're stuck without the registered keeper giving a UK-licence holder who will accept responsibility.
...But if I had indications that my car were cloned, I'd notify the authorities pronto. It could be used for a *real* crime (as opposed to speeding bull) and then you WOULD need proofs and alibis!
Thanks Justme,
But that IS my point...just because the people that cloned my car decided to kill someone with it, does not make me any more likely to be able to prove my whereabouts...
The burden of proof could be on me, but if even the police can't track down the cloned car, what is a member of the public going to be able to do to prove his innocence?
Any BiB here dealt with this?
But that IS my point...just because the people that cloned my car decided to kill someone with it, does not make me any more likely to be able to prove my whereabouts...
The burden of proof could be on me, but if even the police can't track down the cloned car, what is a member of the public going to be able to do to prove his innocence?
Any BiB here dealt with this?
I think statiscally cloning is so rare that you would have a real problem using this as an excuse. They would just assume you are trying to get off speeding or whatever and unless you had a good alibi you may as well forget it. A good alibi would be your car being out of the country on that day with paperwork to prove it, something bullet proof. Failing that you would get nicked regardless of whether you are telling the truth or not(IMHO).
Ivan
Ivan
So, if someone clones a car, The legit owner has no defence until the clone is found?
It seems then that it would be worth making a clone of your car (if it is an old banger) and abandoning it somewhere if you are expecting a ban...
As soon as they find it, you should then have a good argument in court.
It seems then that it would be worth making a clone of your car (if it is an old banger) and abandoning it somewhere if you are expecting a ban...
As soon as they find it, you should then have a good argument in court.
Statistics are no good when it comes to this sort of math. It won't be a random cloning occurance, someone will do their homework and find a vehicle identical to the stolen one - then clone that number.
If they proceed and kill someone in that car, then it would be easy for the legit owner to prove they were not there - even if no friends, family or neighbours can collaborate, there will be plenty of forensic evidence to prove the legit alibi.
If they proceed and kill someone in that car, then it would be easy for the legit owner to prove they were not there - even if no friends, family or neighbours can collaborate, there will be plenty of forensic evidence to prove the legit alibi.
justme said:
If they proceed and kill someone in that car, then it would be easy for the legit owner to prove they were not there - even if no friends, family or neighbours can collaborate, there will be plenty of forensic evidence to prove the legit alibi.
That is all well and good if the clone is being used to rob a bank or kill someone. It is far more likely that today someone would do it to get away with parking tickets and Gatsos.
I am not saying that the statistics are a defence here, I am saying that so little of it goes on that it would be your problem to convinced the authorities this is what has happened.
Ivan
Nice idea
taking it one step further , can you register a car in your own name, if you do not have a license?
And could you then insure that car for any drivers, give all your mates a key, and let people drive it as and when they need it?
I think it would be quite hard to prosecute under those circumstances
taking it one step further , can you register a car in your own name, if you do not have a license?
And could you then insure that car for any drivers, give all your mates a key, and let people drive it as and when they need it?
I think it would be quite hard to prosecute under those circumstances
I believe that cloning will increase because of all the number plate reading technology used to trap motorists.
Quote from an article in the Evening standard;
"For years, hardcore car thieves have been stealing vehicles and giving them the serial numbers, log books and registration plates of other, often scrapped, motors. But cloning was the domain of the few, of the serious criminal. Now, partly because of the proliferation of speed cameras, partly because of the C-charge, more and more unscrupulous motorists are trying it."
Full article at;
www.hottickets.co.uk/news/londonlife/articles/6285047?source=Evening+Standard
Quote from an article in the Evening standard;
"For years, hardcore car thieves have been stealing vehicles and giving them the serial numbers, log books and registration plates of other, often scrapped, motors. But cloning was the domain of the few, of the serious criminal. Now, partly because of the proliferation of speed cameras, partly because of the C-charge, more and more unscrupulous motorists are trying it."
Full article at;
www.hottickets.co.uk/news/londonlife/articles/6285047?source=Evening+Standard
outlaw said:
best way is reg a car to a spouse or famil or freind that dont drive or want tooo learn.
then the just refuse to tell em who was driving and dont give a shit how many points they get.
True.
But you may refuse to tell them even if it's registered to your own name.
Technically you have to help the authorities, yes - but without clear photographic evidence you may be as clueless as they are. Help me help you.
Geddit?
Sorry about my post on the same!
Anyway - re: this cloning. I don't really see how anyone could say just how common or not this practice is especially when if you own a Ford Focus then you have thousands of potentials.
Then doesn't it sound silly when you have a different burden of proof for a "real" crime v motoring offence - so motoring offences don't affect people's lives?
What do plod have to say about this?
Anyway - re: this cloning. I don't really see how anyone could say just how common or not this practice is especially when if you own a Ford Focus then you have thousands of potentials.
Then doesn't it sound silly when you have a different burden of proof for a "real" crime v motoring offence - so motoring offences don't affect people's lives?
What do plod have to say about this?
Cloning is now very, very common. I'll dig out some stats when I get round to it.
My mum's car was cloned a couple of months ago. The clone was used in a robbery in London, while my mum lives in Sheffield.
She found out because the Met phoned and asked her to check the car was still on her drive. They never asked where she was during the robbery, or even if anyone had borrowed her car. They also told her to get in touch if any NIPs or parking tickets came through the door, and they'd sort them out.
My mum's car was cloned a couple of months ago. The clone was used in a robbery in London, while my mum lives in Sheffield.
She found out because the Met phoned and asked her to check the car was still on her drive. They never asked where she was during the robbery, or even if anyone had borrowed her car. They also told her to get in touch if any NIPs or parking tickets came through the door, and they'd sort them out.
Hedders said:
I was just wondering...what happens if you just deny that it was your car that was,snapped by a gatso or similar?
We all know that cloning does happen, so surely if you claim it was not your car, you are introducing doubt, and they should have to provide evidence that it was your car, and not an identical one. And no speed camera could do that without a clear picture of the drivers face.
Or would you be considered guilty unless you can somehow prove that someone has copied your plates?
Is there a precedant for this kind of thing?
If you want to lodge a defence of alibi, you must give advance notice to the court and the onus lies with you to prove the defence, so saying nothing is not an option. You then need to prove that it could not have been your car. Can't just say I went to work, left car at home, still there when I got back. Explain who has keys, where the keys were, and rule out possibility of anybody using car at that time in that place.
If CPS not convinced, case will be sent back to the police to visit car. They will compare any identifying marks, e.g. dealer stickers, bumps and dents and so on.
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