Safety car - Donington.
Discussion
What on earth happened during the safety car period at Donington yesterday? The driver seemed as though he didn't have a clue what he was doing...waving through some drivers and not others! Apart from that a superb sunny day with good racing and lots of overtaking. Also, although I have been to Donington many times before, this weekend really hit home how backwards the circuit and facilities are for hosting the F1 in a few years.
Safety Cars always seem to cause more confusion and danger than they aim to solve.
Picking up the wrong car, then letting through various other cars, which then storm around the track flat out trying to get onto the back on the queue before the SC pulls off.
It is surely not the work of Genius to develop an illuminated sign in the rear window that reads "PLEASE PASS EXCEPT FOR CAR #<insert number of race leader>" and keep the pits closed until the leader is at the head of the queue. This should allow the queue to be formed within a single complete lap as no-one can leave the track to pit, or to overtake to change the position of cars since the incident.
Or... Just switch to the "Code 60" system that the Belgians use. They have purple flags they bring out instead of a SC and everyone has to potter around at 60kmh.
Picking up the wrong car, then letting through various other cars, which then storm around the track flat out trying to get onto the back on the queue before the SC pulls off.
It is surely not the work of Genius to develop an illuminated sign in the rear window that reads "PLEASE PASS EXCEPT FOR CAR #<insert number of race leader>" and keep the pits closed until the leader is at the head of the queue. This should allow the queue to be formed within a single complete lap as no-one can leave the track to pit, or to overtake to change the position of cars since the incident.
Or... Just switch to the "Code 60" system that the Belgians use. They have purple flags they bring out instead of a SC and everyone has to potter around at 60kmh.
Luke Hines said to the pit lane commentator that he was waved at to go passed the safety car, surely he knew he was in the lead of the race and that he should be first in the queue behind the SC. It's not rocket science, just common sense. If he was in any doubt whether or not to pass the SC he could of spoke to the team on the radio to clarify what to do.
MEVILAZY said:
What on earth happened during the safety car period at Donington yesterday? The driver seemed as though he didn't have a clue what he was doing...waving through some drivers and not others! Apart from that a superb sunny day with good racing and lots of overtaking. Also, although I have been to Donington many times before, this weekend really hit home how backwards the circuit and facilities are for hosting the F1 in a few years.
Couldn't agree more, Donnington has always been badly organised for meetings such as the F3/GT championships. There were no clear signs from the road about which entry to use, no signs about where race spectators should park and no signs to suggest where you should enter the circuit and programmes only available from one shop in the paddock (again not sign posted). they really need to decide whats priority on race day, the race traffic, the sunday market or the antiques fair in the exhibition hall.Luckily i had been through this many times over the years and knew the drill, spectators seem like a very low priority to the management of the circuit.
Edited by graememac on Tuesday 14th October 15:37
Edited by graememac on Tuesday 14th October 15:38
Completely agree with your comments, if I hadn't been many times before I would have found it very difficult to locate the circuit due to poor directions and then when we arrived we were told to park miles from the only open entrance (they didn't inform us that the entrance close to where we and many others were parked was closed). I wonder if Bernie has actually been to the circuit bearing in mind he was always moaning about Silverstones poor parking and facilities - they are light years ahead of Donington!
The safety car situation was farcical! Especially as I stood for 5 laps looking at Oliver Turvey's stricken car on the exit of McLeans. I don't remember seeing so much confusion during a safety car period before.
Re - facilities. I took my girlfriend to the HSCC's meeting the weekend before and she said "The whole place should be knocked down and started again". I've always thought of it as charming, but in terms of facilities around the circuit, I honestly think Oulton Park is better now. Having seen the plans for modernisation, I actually think it will create a pretty exciting track - if it ever happens.
Re - facilities. I took my girlfriend to the HSCC's meeting the weekend before and she said "The whole place should be knocked down and started again". I've always thought of it as charming, but in terms of facilities around the circuit, I honestly think Oulton Park is better now. Having seen the plans for modernisation, I actually think it will create a pretty exciting track - if it ever happens.
They did knock down and rebuild a fair chunk of it very recently, but I agree, Silverstone is miles ahead in terms of entry and facilites. The pit garages seemed tiny in comparison. The biggest problem facing their future GP is access - that whole road between the A42 and M1 needs hugely widening (without affecting airport access) to get it anywhere near the ease of access provided by the A43 to Silverstone. The World Series by Renault farce was ample proof of that. Don't get me wrong, I love Donington and used to spend most weekends there when I was in Loughborough, but I just can't see how it's more viable to get that up to GP spec, than do the redevelopment that was planned for Silverstone. My suspicion is that Bernie's getting plenty of big-money offers from overseas and would be more than happy if they failed to complete in time. He's always said that there doesn't necessarily need to be a British Grand Prix.
Think I'm far enough off thread now!
Think I'm far enough off thread now!
IMHO there was no need to send the safety car out so that the Aston could be recovered, it was parked up quite safely where it was.
And, forgive me if i've got the process wrong, a tad rusty, but don't you wait until the incident is cleared and you have ALL the cars behind you before releasing the cars through till you have the leader behind you?
And, forgive me if i've got the process wrong, a tad rusty, but don't you wait until the incident is cleared and you have ALL the cars behind you before releasing the cars through till you have the leader behind you?
I agree, I thought the whole idea of the safety car is that all cars catch up and go round together behind the safety car allowing the marshals time and space to recover vehicles/remove debris etc. It seemed chaotic to me, how difficult is it to scramble a pacecar and pick up the leader?
Should pitstops be allowed at this time?
Maybe it would make more sense to go back to the black and yellow flag where the leader acts as the safety car.
Should pitstops be allowed at this time?
Maybe it would make more sense to go back to the black and yellow flag where the leader acts as the safety car.
Best thing to do - if possible - is to catch the leader, but what you need to do is neutralise the race asap. Clear up the incident, find the leader then once all are in place, resume.
Banning pitstops during an SC period isn't an issue. If the leader pits the next in line 'becomes the leader' you don't filter till you get 2nd etc
And PLEASE no return to the black/yellow quarter!!
Banning pitstops during an SC period isn't an issue. If the leader pits the next in line 'becomes the leader' you don't filter till you get 2nd etc
And PLEASE no return to the black/yellow quarter!!
MSportUK said:
They did knock down and rebuild a fair chunk of it very recently, but I agree, Silverstone is miles ahead in terms of entry and facilites. The pit garages seemed tiny in comparison. The biggest problem facing their future GP is access - that whole road between the A42 and M1 needs hugely widening (without affecting airport access) to get it anywhere near the ease of access provided by the A43 to Silverstone. The World Series by Renault farce was ample proof of that. Don't get me wrong, I love Donington and used to spend most weekends there when I was in Loughborough, but I just can't see how it's more viable to get that up to GP spec, than do the redevelopment that was planned for Silverstone. My suspicion is that Bernie's getting plenty of big-money offers from overseas and would be more than happy if they failed to complete in time. He's always said that there doesn't necessarily need to be a British Grand Prix.
Think I'm far enough off thread now!
The WSR days were farcical. I queued hours for the sake of being surrounded by chavs with zero interest in racing.Think I'm far enough off thread now!
Were you at the LMS at Silverstone this year? Peugeot had given out thousands of free tickets. My Dad and I both queued over an hour to get him - him from the M40 and me from the M1. Free tickets do not work.
Donington could be improved quickly and spectacularly with the right contractor and the right management. I hope they do it - I think the circuit is ready for improvement. Silverstone is a reasonably polished article, albeit some way behind the government-sponsored foreign GP circuits. It only really works as a spectator circuit with very fast cars, though.
Way off topic, but real-life conversations take tangents. Why not internet threads?
Yes I went to the LMS at Silverstone and like you got stuck in traffice for a very long time, slightly my fault for leaving home late though. As a result I missed the start of the race and was also peeved by the fact that most of the people there seemed to be milling around the shops and other non-race related entertainment. I presume they were the ones who had the free tickets....I paid for mine!
Has anyone actually seen the expansion plans for Donington? I must admit I actually quite like the track (especially the Craner Curves leading down to the Old Hairpin) for the 'lower' forms of racing but I just don't see how F1 is going to be able to use it as it stands without a major lengthening and widening and thus surely the history of the old track will be obliterated? If this is the case (as well as needing to knock down the current pits, etc due to the greater scale of F1) then surely you might as well keep Donnington as is and build a brand new facility close to a major road network, with ample concrete and gravel parking and many grandstands.....oh that's right I am talking about Silverstone!!!
Has anyone actually seen the expansion plans for Donington? I must admit I actually quite like the track (especially the Craner Curves leading down to the Old Hairpin) for the 'lower' forms of racing but I just don't see how F1 is going to be able to use it as it stands without a major lengthening and widening and thus surely the history of the old track will be obliterated? If this is the case (as well as needing to knock down the current pits, etc due to the greater scale of F1) then surely you might as well keep Donnington as is and build a brand new facility close to a major road network, with ample concrete and gravel parking and many grandstands.....oh that's right I am talking about Silverstone!!!
chevronb37 said:
Were you at the LMS at Silverstone this year? Peugeot had given out thousands of free tickets. My Dad and I both queued over an hour to get him - him from the M40 and me from the M1. Free tickets do not work.
Umm, I'd say it showed quite the opposite - give out free tickets = more people go to the circuit.OK, they won't be the six harded motorsport fans that would have turned up anyway but a circuit/racing series can't easily survive with no-one watching.
As stated, none of the folk there were actually watching the racing. It was dreadful, I was livid about it. Most people milled around the stalls, ate a burger and then left. The car parks were virtually deserted by the end of the race.
I love seeing new folk coming to motor racing events - it's great. But to give you an example: I saw WSR when it was The Dallara by Renault Series supporting the ISRS at Donington. Seeing Marc Gene clear up and enjoying the cars I made every effort to see the series again. I subsequently queued for 1.5hrs to get to into Donington. I was then verbally abused by a bunch of chavs who did not bother to watch any racing. I therefore will not bother going to see WSR again. Staging events which alienate a circuit's core clientele is a dodgy business. My father is reluctant to go to LMS again. We've previously spent hundreds going to ISRS/ALMS/whatever. I'm thoroughly addicted, however, and will continue to attend everything possible, but circuits need to look after traffic considerations for these very high-attendance events.
Back to the previous tangent - the plans for Donington look great! The circuit will remain unchanged from Redgate through to Coppice. From Coppice the straight will be new and the existing Goddards chicane will not feature. This new straight goes all the way down to a hairpin in a similar position to the Melbourne one. It then doubles back to Goddards, but instead of another hairpin, the track will dive downhill to form another sequence of corners similar to Craners/Old Hairpin before coming back to Redgate. Personally, I think it will actually improve the spectacle of the circuit. I can't get too sentimental about a chicane and the new section which incorporates the circuit's natural elevation change looks really good.
I take your point, a new circuit with better integrated traffic solutions would be great, but look at Rockingham. I queued for 1.5hrs to get out of there after the Champ Cars. I was driving my Father's car with a pretty heavy clutch. I can still recall my poor teenage leg shaking! The truth is, the only way to ease these traffic problems is surely trains. Lots of them! The people simply disappeared after RoC last year. Everyone just took a tube in a different direction. Pretty impressive.
I love seeing new folk coming to motor racing events - it's great. But to give you an example: I saw WSR when it was The Dallara by Renault Series supporting the ISRS at Donington. Seeing Marc Gene clear up and enjoying the cars I made every effort to see the series again. I subsequently queued for 1.5hrs to get to into Donington. I was then verbally abused by a bunch of chavs who did not bother to watch any racing. I therefore will not bother going to see WSR again. Staging events which alienate a circuit's core clientele is a dodgy business. My father is reluctant to go to LMS again. We've previously spent hundreds going to ISRS/ALMS/whatever. I'm thoroughly addicted, however, and will continue to attend everything possible, but circuits need to look after traffic considerations for these very high-attendance events.
Back to the previous tangent - the plans for Donington look great! The circuit will remain unchanged from Redgate through to Coppice. From Coppice the straight will be new and the existing Goddards chicane will not feature. This new straight goes all the way down to a hairpin in a similar position to the Melbourne one. It then doubles back to Goddards, but instead of another hairpin, the track will dive downhill to form another sequence of corners similar to Craners/Old Hairpin before coming back to Redgate. Personally, I think it will actually improve the spectacle of the circuit. I can't get too sentimental about a chicane and the new section which incorporates the circuit's natural elevation change looks really good.
I take your point, a new circuit with better integrated traffic solutions would be great, but look at Rockingham. I queued for 1.5hrs to get out of there after the Champ Cars. I was driving my Father's car with a pretty heavy clutch. I can still recall my poor teenage leg shaking! The truth is, the only way to ease these traffic problems is surely trains. Lots of them! The people simply disappeared after RoC last year. Everyone just took a tube in a different direction. Pretty impressive.
tom0507 said:
Luke Hines said to the pit lane commentator that he was waved at to go passed the safety car, surely he knew he was in the lead of the race and that he should be first in the queue behind the SC. It's not rocket science, just common sense. If he was in any doubt whether or not to pass the SC he could of spoke to the team on the radio to clarify what to do.
Luke Hines showing sense? Nope, I can't make the connection there... 
I'm also involved in Belcar, where SC periods are run as efficiently as ALMS. Neutralise race, clear incident, wave-by to pick up leader, green. Easy. Running an SC without doing a proper wave-by is just wrong and the sort of thing that simply shouldn't happen at this level of motorsport.
At Zolder on Sunday the system worked perfectly - over 20 cars were waved by, the leader picked up and the the race sent green in less than 1.5 laps. By contrast, at the BGT race at Donington the leader was missed and the lack of proper wave-by meant we (and Tech 9 and others) lost nearly a lap.
We all groan when there's an SC period in a BGT race because we know it's going to be yet another balls up, especially if it's near the pit window. It's been happening for years now (Castle Combe '03 was a classic, when the works TVRs were given a one lap lead over the rest of the field due to utter ineptitude), so for 2009 it absolutely has to be sorted out.
chevronb37 said:
As stated, none of the folk there were actually watching the racing. It was dreadful, I was livid about it. Most people milled around the stalls, ate a burger and then left. The car parks were virtually deserted by the end of the race.
I've been working in LMS for a few years and I was delighted that we actually had a crowd at Silverstone. This time I was a spectator and didn't find anything to complain about. It was great to see people there and to have a proper atmosphere at the circuit for a change.So what if people left early. It meant you didn't have to queue to leave, which is surely a bonus?
Mind you, I was unlucky enough to be at one of those Renault days, albeit briefly, at Donington a couple of years ago, so I can see where you're coming from. What a ghastly event, full of ghastly people. By contrast, many of the punters at the LMS race seemed like decent enough folks.
Silverstone was similar to Le Mans in some ways. Of the 50000 or so Brits who go to LM, not many are really interested in the race.
Don't get me wrong, I was delighted to see so many people there. It's just that I queued for over an hour to get into Silverstone, who were not in any way prepared for such crowds, queued to buy a ticket then had to wade my through all the aforementioned chumps stood around quaffing burgers to meet my dad who'd been sent to the farside of Buckinghamshire to park. It meant I missed the first half hour of the race. Having been to virtually every international sportscar race held in this counrty over the last 13 years, I've never missed a single lap from queuing to get in before.
I don't wish to sound elitist - like I said, I'm delighted in people taking an interest. I just object to missing racing because someone with a Peugeot wants to eat a burger in a new location, which I'm afraid is how it appeared to me.
You make a valid point re Le Mans, I know a chap who goes each year to get pissed up with his mates. On the only occassion I've been, I couldn't drag myself away - what a track! Racing is racing, the show around it is peripheral.
I don't wish to sound elitist - like I said, I'm delighted in people taking an interest. I just object to missing racing because someone with a Peugeot wants to eat a burger in a new location, which I'm afraid is how it appeared to me.
You make a valid point re Le Mans, I know a chap who goes each year to get pissed up with his mates. On the only occassion I've been, I couldn't drag myself away - what a track! Racing is racing, the show around it is peripheral.
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