Heel and toe

[davislove]

does anyone else have trouble heel an toeing in the elise? it was soooo easy in my previous car (MINI Cooper S) but in the elise I don't seem to have enough space to blip the revs high enough? any tips?

Edited by davislove on Saturday 18th October 21:27

[F.C.]

New shoes?

Edited by F.C. on Saturday 18th October 22:01

[TIPPER]

No problem in my size 8s but I'd imagine it could be a bit tight if you have size 11 feet. I have found however that if I have my seat even a little too close then my knees get caught up on the bottom of the wheel. Just one notch back seems to sort it.

[Chadders]

you think it's easy to heel n toe in a cooper s but not in an elise??

My dad's had cooper S's and I thought it was really awkward to do it in them, piece of piss in the elise!!

You'll get used to it, just keep trying!!

chadders

[james S]

Test drove an Exige - found it pretty easy to heel and toe.

Are the peddles adjustable?

[bogie]

nah you cant move the pedals...but Ive found the Elise the easiest car ever to H&T in ...its just practice anc what you are used to I guess

[Cino]

Being an ignorant novice and all that, what does heel & toe actually achieve? I was told it was something to do with stopping the brakes locking on a car without ABS. Is there any point then if your car (111R) has ABS? Or is it used to change down a gear whilst still braking on the approach to a corner? At the moment I am braking hard, coming off the brakes, changing down as quick as I can just before the turn and then getting back on the throttle quick, but this seems clumsy and inefficient to me. Is this then the ancient wisdom of heel and toe that I am missing? A clear explanation from someone in the know would be greatly appreciated

[Digital]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuoZeuSgEj4&fea...

Plenty more videos on YouTube showing the technique. I personally found it very tricky in an 05 Exige (pre the newer improved pedal box), but with a bit of practice I've now got the hang of it

[Gad-Westy]

Its a doddle on the S1 although I'm half tempted to adjust my (eliseparts) throttle linkage to make it even easier, I'm just a bit worried it'll make the pedal a little too sensitive.

[Sam_68]

Cino said:

...what does heel & toe actually achieve? ... Or is it used to change down a gear whilst still braking on the approach to a corner? At the moment I am braking hard, coming off the brakes, changing down as quick as I can just before the turn and then getting back on the throttle quick...

Yes, H & T simply allows you to change down whilst braking, smoothly (if you do it right!) and without unsettling the car.

It's nothing to do with avoiding locking the brakes on a non-ABS car (I think whoever told you that might be confusing it with a technique called 'cadence braking', which is essentially a manual version ABS)

[davislove]

tried with new shoes today (size 11) and seemed much better, curiously though these are wider, my other ones are Puma locat which you would think be best to create more room

I'm actually doing the twisted ankle method and not the covering both pedals btw, if that makes sense?

[dss123]

Cino said:

Being an ignorant novice and all that, what does heel & toe actually achieve?

Hey Cino,

Giving a little "blip" on the throttle when you change down brings the engine revs up to match the incomming gear. This creates a nice smooth change and eliminates the "jolt" that would be otherwise felt in the drivetrain.

This jolt isn't much of a problem in a straight line, so the "blip" is really just to smooth the change.

However, if you are braking and changing down as you approach a corner this drive train "jolt" could upset the balance of the car and cause the rear wheels to break traction. So, you need to blip the throttle to smooth the downchange, but this is tricky because your other foot is already busy braking.

So, you either need a Rolf Harris style 3rd leg or learn to heel and toe.

Or simply, to brake with the right foot (often the left edge or big toe) and then rock the foot to the right to catch the accelerator and blip the throttle - simple!

With practice - not too difficult to achieve in an Elise. Helped by close spacing of the pedals and not having a brake servo meaning you can really "lean" on the brakes.

The right shoes help as well - Puma Speedcats - perfect!

Hope it helps


Dunc

[Gad-Westy]

dss123 said:

Cino said:

Being an ignorant novice and all that, what does heel & toe actually achieve?

Hey Cino,

Giving a little "blip" on the throttle when you change down brings the engine revs up to match the incomming gear. This creates a nice smooth change and eliminates the "jolt" that would be otherwise felt in the drivetrain.

This jolt isn't much of a problem in a straight line, so the "blip" is really just to smooth the change.

However, if you are braking and changing down as you approach a corner this drive train "jolt" could upset the balance of the car and cause the rear wheels to break traction. So, you need to blip the throttle to smooth the downchange, but this is tricky because your other foot is already busy braking.

So, you either need a Rolf Harris style 3rd leg or learn to heel and toe.

Or simply, to brake with the right foot (often the left edge or big toe) and then rock the foot to the right to catch the accelerator and blip the throttle - simple!

With practice - not too difficult to achieve in an Elise. Helped by close spacing of the pedals and not having a brake servo meaning you can really "lean" on the brakes.

The right shoes help as well - Puma Speedcats - perfect!

Hope it helps


Dunc

Good description that.

The problem with using heeling and toeing a lot on the road is that when you jump into another car, you try to do it and sometimes just can't physically reach. I'm in a Clio today and there is no way I could H&T in that, my foot just isn't big enough to be on both pedals at once.

On the application side of things, I've always understood that the best approach is to over blip the throttle rather than trying to rev match. This way, you don't have to be overly precise and its the engine that drops speed to match the road speed when you change gear rather than the jolt you get normally as the car speed drops excessivley to meet the engine speed. Seems to work in practice, though I'd admit that my skills need a lot of polishing.

[beez]

HT in my S1 was so easy the pedal were spot on, but my S2 was actually impossible due to the excess travel on the brake pedal.

You can adjust the hight of the brake pedal plus there are three holes at the back which you can adjust the brake pedal left to right.

I adjusted my brake pedal up a touch and moved it to the middle hole, now I can HT easily.

Check out this link

[Davey111]

Hey, I have recently being trying to do this with my S1 Elise. I struggle to get the revs up at all. It might just be bad technique as I have never tried it before but the accelerator is a bit loose at the top so it has some play before it does anything. Does anyone know if this is a common problem and if it can be easily fixed? Thanks.

[Gad-Westy]

Davey111 said:

Hey, I have recently being trying to do this with my S1 Elise. I struggle to get the revs up at all. It might just be bad technique as I have never tried it before but the accelerator is a bit loose at the top so it has some play before it does anything. Does anyone know if this is a common problem and if it can be easily fixed? Thanks.

Eliseparts throttle linkage is what you need by the sound of it. Alternatively maybe adjust the length of the cable though you'll need to be caeful not to pull it too tight and make sure you still get a full throttle opening.

[Cino]

dss123 said:

Cino said:

Being an ignorant novice and all that, what does heel & toe actually achieve?

Hey Cino,

Giving a little "blip" on the throttle when you change down brings the engine revs up to match the incomming gear. This creates a nice smooth change and eliminates the "jolt" that would be otherwise felt in the drivetrain.

This jolt isn't much of a problem in a straight line, so the "blip" is really just to smooth the change.

However, if you are braking and changing down as you approach a corner this drive train "jolt" could upset the balance of the car and cause the rear wheels to break traction. So, you need to blip the throttle to smooth the downchange, but this is tricky because your other foot is already busy braking.

So, you either need a Rolf Harris style 3rd leg or learn to heel and toe.

Or simply, to brake with the right foot (often the left edge or big toe) and then rock the foot to the right to catch the accelerator and blip the throttle - simple!

With practice - not too difficult to achieve in an Elise. Helped by close spacing of the pedals and not having a brake servo meaning you can really "lean" on the brakes.

The right shoes help as well - Puma Speedcats - perfect!

Hope it helps


Dunc

Thanks for that, makes more sense now. From what I can gather the blip is done with the heel of the right foot whilst the toe is still on the brake? Is there an optimum point to do this (i.e. start, middle or end of the braking) and presumably you get back on the throttle straight after the braking has finished to balance it? Can you do any harm by stuffing it up when practicing? Thanks

[Strugs]

Cino said:

Thanks for that, makes more sense now. From what I can gather the blip is done with the heel of the right foot whilst the toe is still on the brake? Is there an optimum point to do this (i.e. start, middle or end of the braking) and presumably you get back on the throttle straight after the braking has finished to balance it? Can you do any harm by stuffing it up when practicing? Thanks

Just scanned this thread, so apologies if already posted..

[TIPPER]

If you get Walshy's DVD (see Carlimits.com) you'll get to see lots of fancy footwork to practice (preferably not on the road).
On the road H&T smooths the down changes. On track your rear wheels can lock up if you don't H&T (particularly in the wet). Not ideal as you're trying to get the car settled to enter a corner.

[Sam_68]

Strugs said:

...only you need to do it considerably quicker than that, and you don't wait until you've moved the gearstick to the next gear before blipping the throttle: you should be braking, blipping throttle and moving gearstick all at the same time, so that the clutch rises to biting point the instant that the gearlever has selected the next gear.