Restaurant bill being loaded....
Discussion
Interesting one yesterday evening.
Four of us went to a local restaurant that we use probably once a month - usual excellent meal, good service and all well until the bill arrives and we notice that the total amount of £97 then had VAT added to it, bringing the bill to nearly £117. No service charge had been added.
We asked our waitress what it was all about and she told us it was their new till system. We pointed out that there was no mention that VAT would be added to the menu prices (which were the same prices as they have always been on previous visits). She said the menus were going to be reprinted telling customers VAT was going to be added.
I did point out that what they were doing was probably illegal, but the owner was not there so we couldn't pursue that line.
Further conversation wasn't proving fruitful, so we gave them £100 (£3 tip we felt was enough in the circumstances!) and left.
Interesting little scam this one I reckon - if maybe even 25% of the customers don't realise or notice, then it's a useful income top up for the owner.
I feel like reporting it to Trading Standards......
Four of us went to a local restaurant that we use probably once a month - usual excellent meal, good service and all well until the bill arrives and we notice that the total amount of £97 then had VAT added to it, bringing the bill to nearly £117. No service charge had been added.
We asked our waitress what it was all about and she told us it was their new till system. We pointed out that there was no mention that VAT would be added to the menu prices (which were the same prices as they have always been on previous visits). She said the menus were going to be reprinted telling customers VAT was going to be added.
I did point out that what they were doing was probably illegal, but the owner was not there so we couldn't pursue that line.
Further conversation wasn't proving fruitful, so we gave them £100 (£3 tip we felt was enough in the circumstances!) and left.
Interesting little scam this one I reckon - if maybe even 25% of the customers don't realise or notice, then it's a useful income top up for the owner.
I feel like reporting it to Trading Standards......
You did well with your decision re. what you paid. in the summer, I was working at an event, and put my team up in a Premier Inn - we ate in the typical adjoining pub.
As always, I scrutinised the bill (just think expenses, accounts office, and fine-toothed comb!) and found that the pub had ignored the 2 for 1 offer that was valid with our order, they added at four extra starters and five extra main courses, along with at least two extra rounds of drinks (I only ever allow two drinks with the meal on events - after that the staff are on their own!)
Basically, the bill was about £200 more than it should have been.
I asked for them to sort the bill out properly, so they came back with an identical copy of the original bill, at which point I asked to see the manager.
Manager came out after me asking three times over fifteen minutes, and she claimed that the bill "must" be correct.
I pointed out the missing two for one offer, at which point got an "Oh".
When I pointed out that there were more dishes on the bill than there were members of my party, i got another "Oh."
We had reached deadlock, so I got a biro, and crossed off items that I did not agree with, handed her the receipt and told her to bring back a corrected version, and I would pay it.
She never came back (after half an hour) so we left, and I handed my business card to the staff, and asked the manager to contact me.
Never got the call, and never paid the bill.
As always, I scrutinised the bill (just think expenses, accounts office, and fine-toothed comb!) and found that the pub had ignored the 2 for 1 offer that was valid with our order, they added at four extra starters and five extra main courses, along with at least two extra rounds of drinks (I only ever allow two drinks with the meal on events - after that the staff are on their own!)
Basically, the bill was about £200 more than it should have been.
I asked for them to sort the bill out properly, so they came back with an identical copy of the original bill, at which point I asked to see the manager.
Manager came out after me asking three times over fifteen minutes, and she claimed that the bill "must" be correct.
I pointed out the missing two for one offer, at which point got an "Oh".
When I pointed out that there were more dishes on the bill than there were members of my party, i got another "Oh."
We had reached deadlock, so I got a biro, and crossed off items that I did not agree with, handed her the receipt and told her to bring back a corrected version, and I would pay it.
She never came back (after half an hour) so we left, and I handed my business card to the staff, and asked the manager to contact me.
Never got the call, and never paid the bill.
THX138 said:
thats fascinating, website said:
If a percentage charge for service is said to be included in the meal price you are entitled to reduce the bill if the service has been poor. You are entitled to reduce it by the amount shown to be the service charge. If it is not specified, anything up to 15% would be acceptable.
Few months back I had a restaurant add a bottle of champagne to our meal that we never had
This brought the meal for 2 from £78 to £122, did they think I wouldnt notice FFS?
Ditto the service charge and line for tips thing, real piss boiler for me
With service charge and tips I always ask the waiters if it goes straight to them, of not, no tip as I am not going to let the owner get more cash in this despicable underhand way
This brought the meal for 2 from £78 to £122, did they think I wouldnt notice FFS?
Ditto the service charge and line for tips thing, real piss boiler for me
With service charge and tips I always ask the waiters if it goes straight to them, of not, no tip as I am not going to let the owner get more cash in this despicable underhand way
Actually, best way with the VAT thing (having read that web link)........
Pay with credit card, without fuss
Call credit card company and complain about VAT situation and ask for chargeback of full amount
Rest. will more than likely not make a fuss as they wouldnt want the CC investigating their VAT situation
Pay with credit card, without fuss
Call credit card company and complain about VAT situation and ask for chargeback of full amount
Rest. will more than likely not make a fuss as they wouldnt want the CC investigating their VAT situation
Also a p*** boiler is restaurants which actually ave the temerity to write 'Compulsory' or 'Obligatory' Service charge at the bottom of the menu. Effectively they are running their wage bill separately to the menu.
Makes a complete mockery of 'getting what you pay for'. I also wonder if it's some kind of tax ruse, as it will surely affect the margin (which HMRC have anticipatory expectations of).
Makes a complete mockery of 'getting what you pay for'. I also wonder if it's some kind of tax ruse, as it will surely affect the margin (which HMRC have anticipatory expectations of).
The way many restaurants pay their staff is despicable. They pay them less than minimum wage themselves and then use the tip jar to bring the wages upto the legal minimum.
I find that appalling. Tips are for exceptional service, they are not a right. So the staff should be paid properly and then get the tips if they perform well.
I find that appalling. Tips are for exceptional service, they are not a right. So the staff should be paid properly and then get the tips if they perform well.
IforB said:
The way many restaurants pay their staff is despicable. They pay them less than minimum wage themselves and then use the tip jar to bring the wages upto the legal minimum.
I find that appalling. Tips are for exceptional service, they are not a right. So the staff should be paid properly and then get the tips if they perform well.
You are joking, right? Have you ever been to America? The reason that you get such good service over there is that they operate things in **precisely** this way. The basic wage is trivial, and the vast majority of staff earnings is via tips. Thus they work hard to make sure they get them. What is more, they pay income tax on the total amount **including** tips, and the tax is based on the amount of tips they are **expected** to make rather than the actual amount. So if they do a sI find that appalling. Tips are for exceptional service, they are not a right. So the staff should be paid properly and then get the tips if they perform well.
t job, not only do they not get paid as much, but they also pay tax on the money they haven't earned. Seems like a perfect way to operate things to me.
So why do we get such awful service in the UK compared to the US?
The best service I've had has been in France(seriously) and they tend to pay the waiting staff a decent wage and allow tips if you want.
I think the "British" method is nothing but dishonest. Tips make waiting staff work harder of course, but they shouldn't be used to bring their salaries upto the legal minimum. That is simply wrong, especially as it isn't made clear to the punter.
Pay the staff minimum wage and allow them to earn a living wage via tips, but don't take the p*ss and use the tips to just bring them upto to the bare legal minimum by using up all the tips. That actually takes the incentive away from the waiting staff as they know that whatever the tips, they'll still be getting peanuts.
The best service I've had has been in France(seriously) and they tend to pay the waiting staff a decent wage and allow tips if you want.
I think the "British" method is nothing but dishonest. Tips make waiting staff work harder of course, but they shouldn't be used to bring their salaries upto the legal minimum. That is simply wrong, especially as it isn't made clear to the punter.
Pay the staff minimum wage and allow them to earn a living wage via tips, but don't take the p*ss and use the tips to just bring them upto to the bare legal minimum by using up all the tips. That actually takes the incentive away from the waiting staff as they know that whatever the tips, they'll still be getting peanuts.
Edited by IforB on Sunday 19th October 11:15
IforB said:
So why do we get such awful service in the UK compared to the US?
The best service I've had has been in France(seriously) and they tend to pay the waiting staff a decent wage and allow tips if you want.
I think the "British" method is nothing but dishonest. Tips make waiting staff work harder of course, but they shouldn't be used to bring their salaries upto the legal minimum. That is simply wrong, especially as it isn't made clear to the punter.
Sorry I don't agree. There's a big difference between a good restaurant in France or anywhere else (I'm thinking Ramsay-quality) and your local Harvester. You expect good service at a quality establishment and by and large you will get it regardless of the remuneration policy because the staff are recruited and managed by a competent manager who is, in turn, expected to (and probably bonussed on) providing proper service. Where the tip-driven payment works well is at the lower end of the market which typically attracts low quality staff on the restaurant floor and (more often) pretty poor quality management who aren't prepared or able to run things properly. The difference in the US is that you get the decent service across the board, partly because it is expected by the customer base and nothing less is tolerated, and partly because the staff are properly incentivised (via tips) to perform properly. The best service I've had has been in France(seriously) and they tend to pay the waiting staff a decent wage and allow tips if you want.
I think the "British" method is nothing but dishonest. Tips make waiting staff work harder of course, but they shouldn't be used to bring their salaries upto the legal minimum. That is simply wrong, especially as it isn't made clear to the punter.
As for whether it is clear to the punter - if the staff do their job properly and the punter rewards them appropriately, why should the punter care how they are paid, or ever need to know for that matter?
pugwash4x4 said:
AngryApples said:
will more than likely not make a fuss as they wouldnt want the CC investigating their VAT situation
CC company wont care about the VAT situation and the restaurant won't be bothered about it eitherA limitation on % of chargebacks is standard in all merchant agreements
Crikey. Eating in the US was a pain in the backside mostly. You barely have enough time to taste a garlic laden mouthful before the waiter/waitress is back asking if everything is OK with your meal.
Yes it would be if I could eat it before it gets cold because I have to keep answering your inane questions every two minutes!
Service? Hindrance more like!
Yes it would be if I could eat it before it gets cold because I have to keep answering your inane questions every two minutes!
Service? Hindrance more like!
groomi said:
Crikey. Eating in the US was a pain in the backside mostly. You barely have enough time to taste a garlic laden mouthful before the waiter/waitress is back asking if everything is OK with your meal.
Yes it would be if I could eat it before it gets cold because I have to keep answering your inane questions every two minutes!
Service? Hindrance more like!
I'm sure your valuable input on how to run a restaurant will be greatly missed if you decide to stay away from USA.Yes it would be if I could eat it before it gets cold because I have to keep answering your inane questions every two minutes!
Service? Hindrance more like!
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