Has Hamilton used his engine "Joker" this season?

[IforB]

Has LH used the free engine change yet this season?

The Cock kept banging on about him turning his engine down and the fact that the Ferrari's will have fresh engines in Brazil.

If he hasn't used it, then would there be anything to stop McLaren lobbing a new lump in?

[Cara Van Man]

no he hasn't.

Apparently a rle stops them from using it in the last race, dont know why though.

[german tony]

If they were allowed to do it int he last race they all would & the thing would desend into farce

Well, more into farce anyway.

[IforB]

Didn't know that. Cheers.

[Dogsey]

german tony said:

If they were allowed to do it int he last race they all would & the thing would desend into farce

Well, more into farce anyway.

I don't understand this, why shouldn't they be allowed to use it at the last race? If a team has managed to go through the entire season without needing to use it then I can't see why they can't use it at the last race.

[flemke]

Dogsey said:

german tony said:

If they were allowed to do it int he last race they all would & the thing would desend into farce

Well, more into farce anyway.

I don't understand this, why shouldn't they be allowed to use it at the last race? If a team has managed to go through the entire season without needing to use it then I can't see why they can't use it at the last race.

It's yet another stroke of genius from the people whose life's work is to create rules that interfere with real life.

[andyps]

Dogsey said:

german tony said:

If they were allowed to do it int he last race they all would & the thing would desend into farce

Well, more into farce anyway.

I don't understand this, why shouldn't they be allowed to use it at the last race? If a team has managed to go through the entire season without needing to use it then I can't see why they can't use it at the last race.

It does seem to defy logic - the rules were designed to reduce costs through longer engine life. A single "joker" change is then allowed which is certain to be included within the budget and engine production (effectively any DNF allows an extra joker anyway) schedule. So, come the last race of the season there is an engine laying around unused which with the way things change, even with the development freeze, means it probably goes to waste anyway. I know that is a very simplified version of life in F1, but had the schedule been different Hamilton could have used it today without a problem. Maybe in addition to docking places for using extra engines there should be a benefit for not using it - maybe 5 extra points;)

[Cara Van Man]

flemke said:

Dogsey said:

german tony said:

If they were allowed to do it int he last race they all would & the thing would desend into farce

Well, more into farce anyway.

I don't understand this, why shouldn't they be allowed to use it at the last race? If a team has managed to go through the entire season without needing to use it then I can't see why they can't use it at the last race.

It's yet another stroke of genius from the people whose life's work is to create rules that interfere with real life.

I'd say that if you managed to get to the last race without using it, you deserve some sort of credit.

[flemke]

andyps said:

Maybe in addition to docking places for using extra engines there should be a benefit for not using it - maybe 5 extra points;)

4 extra points would seem fair enough.

[Cara Van Man]

flemke said:

andyps said:

Maybe in addition to docking places for using extra engines there should be a benefit for not using it - maybe 5 extra points;)

4 extra points would seem fair enough.

Or even the points which the FIA has robbed given back

[flemke]

Cara Van Man said:

flemke said:

andyps said:

Maybe in addition to docking places for using extra engines there should be a benefit for not using it - maybe 5 extra points;)

4 extra points would seem fair enough.

Or even the points which the FIA has robbed given back

There you go - it is time for forgiveness. The FIA can forgive Hamilton for being faster at Spa than Raikkonen, and then the world can forgive Mosley for being the most hated person in the history of motor sport.

[german tony]

I think it would be a bit hard on the people who were forced to use their joker earlier on in the season through no fault of their own if those more fortunate souls could have a nice fresh engine for the last race.

That said the idea of a joker is silly in the 1st place.

As is the idea of an engine that has to last all day Sunday & all day Saturday twice but you can use as many as you like on Friday.

[Teppic]

german tony said:

As is the idea of an engine that has to last all day Sunday & all day Saturday twice but you can use as many as you like on Friday.

Oh, no you can't.

Drivers have had engine problems in Friday practice and had to take a 10 place drop in qualifying as a result. An engine has to do two lots of complete Friday-Sunday running.

[flemke]

german tony said:

I think it would be a bit hard on the people who were forced to use their joker earlier on in the season through no fault of their own if those more fortunate souls could have a nice fresh engine for the last race.

That said the idea of a joker is silly in the 1st place.

As is the idea of an engine that has to last all day Sunday & all day Saturday twice but you can use as many as you like on Friday.

But how does that follow, Tony? The "through no fault of their own" element bemuses me. The team are responsible for whatever happens to their equipment. Often, an engine failure is through the fault of the team or their sub-contractor.

[german tony]

I agree it's the team's fault, not the driver's.

So why should the driver lose 10 places on the grid?

Take some points from the team by all means.

As for Fridays & engines - didn't the rule change for this season?

[andyps]

german tony said:

I think it would be a bit hard on the people who were forced to use their joker earlier on in the season through no fault of their own if those more fortunate souls could have a nice fresh engine for the last race.

Other than the fact that it will only have to last one race, I can't see how this is different. But that is the luck of the draw to an extent anyway - both the Ferrari drivers get new engines for the last race anyway so they only have to last one race.

Fortune (by your definition) in F1 sometimes favours the best, but doesn't always give them benefits!

[flemke]

Does anyone know if it is true that the joker engine may not be used at all in the last race, or rather that it may not be used only if the extant engine appears to be in good working order?

I ask because it would be very much out of character for any F1 team, but especially for one as obsessive as McL., to have forgone the chance to use the joker in, say, Japan, where instead Hamilton used an engine that was on its second race. He could have used his joker a week ago, and then used that engine today for its second race, and then gone to another fresh engine for Brazil.
If, however, they were always going to be allowed to use the joker without penalty in the case of an engine failure in Brazilian practice, then it would make sense not to have used it unnecessarily in Japan.

[SamHH]

flemke said:

Does anyone know if it is true that the joker engine may not be used at all in the last race, or rather that it may not be used only if the extant engine appears to be in good working order?

The former.

[german tony]

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/475632E46...

The relevent bit is part f)

28.4 For the purposes of this Article and Article 28.6 only, an Event will be deemed to comprise P3, the
qualifying practice session and the race.
a) Each driver may use no more than one engine for two consecutive Events in which his team
competes. Other than under f) below, should a driver use a replacement engine before the end of
the qualifying practice session he will drop ten places on the starting grid at that Event and an
additional ten places each time a further engine is used.
Unless the driver fails to finish the race (see below) the engine fitted to the car at the end of the
Event must remain in it until the end of the next Event. Any driver who failed to finish the race at the
first of the two Events for reasons which the technical delegate accepts as being beyond the control
of the team or driver, may start the second with a different engine without a penalty being incurred.
An engine will be deemed to have been used once the car’s timing transponder has shown that it
has left the pit lane.
b) If a driver is replaced after the first of a two Event period, having finished the first Event, the
replacement driver must use the engine which was used for the first Event.
c) Should a driver use a replacement engine after the qualifying practice session, he will be required to
start the relevant race from the back of the starting grid in accordance with Article 36.2c).
d) After consultation with the relevant engine supplier the FIA will attach seals to each engine in order
to ensure that no significant moving parts can be rebuilt or replaced.
Following the first of the two Events, and within two hours of the end of the post race parc fermé,
exhaust blanking plates (with one 10mm diameter inspection hole per cylinder) and further seals will
be applied in order to ensure that the engine cannot be run until the second Event. These seals will
be removed at 09.00 on the day of initial scrutineering at the second Event.
e) Other than the straightforward replacement of one engine unit with another, a change will also be
deemed to have taken place if any of the FIA seals are damaged or removed from the original
engine after it has been used for the first time.
f) Except during the last Event of the Championship season, each driver will be permitted to use a
replacement engine without incurring a penalty the first time this becomes necessary during the
season.

[andyps]

Thanks Tony - at least that confirms it, shame it doesn't explain why! I guess the explanation is that it was written by the FIA with all their usual logic applied.