Train companies
Discussion
Who decides what money they get?
I was pondering this morning, on my commute, sat next to a snotty nosed, spotty 12 year old, just how whoever pays the train operators decides what they get?
Reason being, i bought a ticket on my local line to get from there to my main station and on to Manchester.
At Lime Street Station, at that time in the morning, you can get on a number of trains run by a number of operators and get to the same place in pretty much the same amount of time.
So do First Transpennine get my money? Or Northern Rail?
Would they still make the same money if everyone piled into the FT train and left the Northern one empty?
Hmm.
I was pondering this morning, on my commute, sat next to a snotty nosed, spotty 12 year old, just how whoever pays the train operators decides what they get?
Reason being, i bought a ticket on my local line to get from there to my main station and on to Manchester.
At Lime Street Station, at that time in the morning, you can get on a number of trains run by a number of operators and get to the same place in pretty much the same amount of time.
So do First Transpennine get my money? Or Northern Rail?
Would they still make the same money if everyone piled into the FT train and left the Northern one empty?
Hmm.
Train operators bid for licences to run certain routes/regions. Once they've got them, they set (within reason) the pricing. They get the money from your pocket.
Buses can be just as bad. Depending which one of 3 buses I can get, from 2 different operators, my return ticket can cost £3.00, £3.20 or £3.80.
Buses can be just as bad. Depending which one of 3 buses I can get, from 2 different operators, my return ticket can cost £3.00, £3.20 or £3.80.
10 Pence Short said:
Train operators bid for licences to run certain routes/regions. Once they've got them, they set (within reason) the pricing. They get the money from your pocket.
Buses can be just as bad. Depending which one of 3 buses I can get, from 2 different operators, my return ticket can cost £3.00, £3.20 or £3.80.
I'm not sure you understood his question. What I think he's trying to ask is... if he buys a train ticket from A to B and has a choice of trains run by different operators, how does the money he has paid for the ticket reach the operator who's train he uses when he could have used any of them. For example... If I buy a ticket from Leeds to Wakefield Westgate I can chose between National Express, Arriva X-Country, Northern Rail, etc. Suppose I use the National Express train... How does the system know I've used National Express and to direct the money I paid to that operator?Buses can be just as bad. Depending which one of 3 buses I can get, from 2 different operators, my return ticket can cost £3.00, £3.20 or £3.80.
MitchT said:
10 Pence Short said:
Train operators bid for licences to run certain routes/regions. Once they've got them, they set (within reason) the pricing. They get the money from your pocket.
Buses can be just as bad. Depending which one of 3 buses I can get, from 2 different operators, my return ticket can cost £3.00, £3.20 or £3.80.
I'm not sure you understood his question. What I think he's trying to ask is... if he buys a train ticket from A to B and has a choice of trains run by different operators, how does the money he has paid for the ticket reach the operator who's train he uses when he could have used any of them. For example... If I buy a ticket from Leeds to Wakefield Westgate I can chose between National Express, Arriva X-Country, Northern Rail, etc. Suppose I use the National Express train... How does the system know I've used National Express and to direct the money I paid to that operator?Buses can be just as bad. Depending which one of 3 buses I can get, from 2 different operators, my return ticket can cost £3.00, £3.20 or £3.80.
But at the time when the ticket was bought the ticket office wouldn't know (or care) which operator was going to be used. I quite often buy a ticket from Luton to Kings Cross from the station ticket office. I only decide when I get to the platforms whether to jump on an intercity run by Midland Mainline, or a local train run by First Capital Connect. Chances are I'll never have to show my ticket to anyone, so there's no way that the 'system' could ever know which train operator I'd actually used...
The train companies promise donations to the Labour Party, the basic donation gets them the franchise, then top-ups determine how much subsidy the Department of Transport gives them to guarantee their profits.
Then the company gives up itself to be effectively run by a bunch of civil servants in London who always "know best", what's best for the railways and the poor bloody passengers. They'll then let the operating company levy high fares for poor service, and then decide how long (or rather how short) the trains are and a host of other minutiae. When the passengers complain no one is around to take the blame - the operating companies blame the DofT, the DofT blames Network Rail, Network Rail blames the operating company.
However this is a vast improvement over British Rail, where the food could kill you when you eventually did get on a train whihc hadn't broken down or was cancelled.
And actually my local train operating company (Southern) is actually pretty good. And don't forget the railways have to carry some of the most disgusting, unwashed, rude, ungrateful and selfish animals on the planet, the great British public.
Then the company gives up itself to be effectively run by a bunch of civil servants in London who always "know best", what's best for the railways and the poor bloody passengers. They'll then let the operating company levy high fares for poor service, and then decide how long (or rather how short) the trains are and a host of other minutiae. When the passengers complain no one is around to take the blame - the operating companies blame the DofT, the DofT blames Network Rail, Network Rail blames the operating company.
However this is a vast improvement over British Rail, where the food could kill you when you eventually did get on a train whihc hadn't broken down or was cancelled.
And actually my local train operating company (Southern) is actually pretty good. And don't forget the railways have to carry some of the most disgusting, unwashed, rude, ungrateful and selfish animals on the planet, the great British public.
10 Pence Short said:
I would imagine the system is computerised and allocates funds from ticket offices accordingly. If you buy tickets on the train the employee will normally be employed by that train company.
I wouldn't be able to find a source, but I am sure I have read that when there are competitive services, the cost of your ticket is divvied up to all the relevant operators according to "a formula"HiRich said:
10 Pence Short said:
I would imagine the system is computerised and allocates funds from ticket offices accordingly. If you buy tickets on the train the employee will normally be employed by that train company.
I wouldn't be able to find a source, but I am sure I have read that when there are competitive services, the cost of your ticket is divvied up to all the relevant operators according to "a formula"Almost every terminal able to produce tickets is computerised, so they system will be able to tell which operator should get which money, anyway. It doesn't matter which train you actually use.
I was standing on a pretyt packed overground train a few days ago, next to a couple of ticket inspectors chatting away to each other
One of them mentioned that he was working the other day and a passenger mentioned to him that he hadnt got a seat on his train for the 2 years he had been commuting back and forth to the office. he asked why the train companies didnt offer a 'standing' ticket, in the same way they offer First Class tickets. They will obviously increase the cost of standard tickets to make up for the shortfall but thought it was a pretty good idea if you have to stand most of the time
One of them mentioned that he was working the other day and a passenger mentioned to him that he hadnt got a seat on his train for the 2 years he had been commuting back and forth to the office. he asked why the train companies didnt offer a 'standing' ticket, in the same way they offer First Class tickets. They will obviously increase the cost of standard tickets to make up for the shortfall but thought it was a pretty good idea if you have to stand most of the time
E36GUY said:
10 Pence Short said:
, they set (within reason) the pricing.
Within reason? Really? Could've fooled me.
The maintenance side of things can cost a small fortune due to the amount of sub-contracting that goes on. As the old saying goes there's the right way, the wrong way and the railway.
Edited by Stu R on Wednesday 22 October 13:15
I know all that but trains should not be more expensive than the equivalent car journey. It would cost about £100 return per person to go London to Leeds and back for a weekend whereas I could drive there and back for just over a quarter of that total in Petrol - even in an M3
Edited by E36GUY on Wednesday 22 October 13:20
HiRich said:
10 Pence Short said:
I would imagine the system is computerised and allocates funds from ticket offices accordingly. If you buy tickets on the train the employee will normally be employed by that train company.
I wouldn't be able to find a source, but I am sure I have read that when there are competitive services, the cost of your ticket is divvied up to all the relevant operators according to "a formula"No idea how it works mind you.
E36GUY said:
I know all that but trains should not be more expensive than the equivalent car journey. It would cost about £100 return per person to go London to Leeds and back for a weekend whereas I could drive there and back for half that in Petrol - even in an M3
It's a lot cheaper if you book in advance, but yes I agree the prices are way too high, especially given what you get in return for your money. The railways absolutely pi%% money away due to daft practices and mediocre managment from the old BR days in many instances that I've come across, which doesn't help. The maintenance costs however are huge and make up a fraction of the overheads, and as anyone who's had anything to do with the railway will tell you it'll never change. Edited by Stu R on Wednesday 22 October 13:28
The computers do it. Before TOCs took over, different bits of BR operating trains over the same stretch of track took revenue depending on how many trains they operated over a route, what time of day they operated and probably some other factors which affect the 'flow'. This would give each operator a % of the revenue. I expect it's much the same nowadays but with advance tickets, apexes and the like all the revenue from those tickets goes to the operator specified rather than being divided up. The computer used to be CAPRI but as somebody mentioned earlier, it looks like it's ORCATS these days.
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