Weird accident, what caused this?

[oyster]

I can't recall this accident, but found it on youtube. What on earth was this all about? Was it during the race or practice?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=8zMUwmp9IhI&NR=1

[TonyHetherington]

Looks like they both knew the overtake was on (as in planned, but not illegally if you see what I mean), the one in front (couldn't tell who) moved over to let the one behind past on the outside, and the split second the one at the rear dived up the inside.

[FourWheelDrift]

Qualifying 1993, Alesi was on an in lap and Berger on a flying lap. Alesi went to move offline and give Berger the racing line at the same time Berger decided to go up the inside.


They had another incident in 1995 at Monza as well when a camera fell off Alesi's car and hit the following Ferrari of Berger's, destroying his front left suspension.

[entropy]

A mis-understanding betweeb the two Ferrari drivers.

Alesi brakes early and decides to go off the racing line just as the same time Berger commits himself to the inside line.

[E30M3SE]

FourWheelDrift said:

They had another incident in 1995 at Monza as well when a camera fell off Alesi's car and hit the following Ferrari of Berger's, destroying his front left suspension.

That's right, IIRC they were on for a 1-2 finish (if they'd finished)
but Alesi had to retire also.
That race was very disppointing.

[MrKipling43]

Crikey, that was a bad one. Wouldn't be anything these days, but you can almost see how much worse the cars were in a crash in that footage compared to these days - and I don't mean the wreckage, just the way it reacts to ploughing into the barrier.

Before I read the explanation, I thought it might have been something to do with the bump just before that bend, since IIRC the drivers now avoid that as they come into the braking zone.

Edited by MrKipling43 on Thursday 23 October 14:53

[SamHH]

MrKipling43 said:

Crikey, that was a bad one. Wouldn't be anything these days, but you can almost see how much worse the cars were in a crash in that footage compared to these days - and I don't mean the wreckage, just the way it reacts to ploughing into the barrier.

Before I read the explanation, I thought it might have been something to do with the bump just before that bend, since IIRC the drivers now avoid that as they come into the braking zone.

Edited by MrKipling43 on Thursday 23 October 14:53

How do you think a modern car would have reacted differently?

[MrKipling43]

SamHH said:

How do you think a modern car would have reacted differently?

A modern car would have absorbed A LOT more energy during the first impact, I would imagine that there would have been a much less vigorous 'bounce' off the barrier on the right (as we look at it).

[entropy]

John Watson commenting on track safety, the job the tyre wall/armco dissipated the enery.

Noticed there's a tree a few yards away from the armco. Shocking in today's climate. Shows you how far we've progressed.

[evenflow]

MrKipling43 said:

Crikey, that was a bad one. Wouldn't be anything these days, but you can almost see how much worse the cars were in a crash in that footage compared to these days - and I don't mean the wreckage, just the way it reacts to ploughing into the barrier.

Before I read the explanation, I thought it might have been something to do with the bump just before that bend, since IIRC the drivers now avoid that as they come into the braking zone.

Edited by MrKipling43 on Thursday 23 October 14:53

I was going to post something smiilar. Nowadays, you'd be amazed if a driver didn't just jump out of the car and wave to the crowd after an incident like that.

[FourWheelDrift]

In 93 there was always the strong possibility of suspension intrusion into the cockpit with a side impact that heavy. The last GP weekend incident of suspension into the cockpit causing an injury I recall was Ralf Schumacher at Monaco in 2000.

They've made improvements and changes since both and now it's something you just don't see, take Hamilton's big accident at the Nurburgring last year. Wiggled his legs around to make sure and then hopped out.

[evenflow]

FourWheelDrift said:

In 93 there was always the strong possibility of suspension intrusion into the cockpit with a side impact that heavy. The last GP weekend incident of suspension into the cockpit causing an injury I recall was Ralf Schumacher at Monaco in 2000.

Wasn't that essentially what did for Senna?

[FourWheelDrift]

evenflow said:

FourWheelDrift said:

In 93 there was always the strong possibility of suspension intrusion into the cockpit with a side impact that heavy. The last GP weekend incident of suspension into the cockpit causing an injury I recall was Ralf Schumacher at Monaco in 2000.

Wasn't that essentially what did for Senna?

No that was the wheel coming back into the cockpit, the injury I was referring to was the suspension points breaking and the wishbones/steering rack or whatever spearing into the side of the cockpit. Penetrating near the feet or lower legs causing either injury or preventing the driver from getting out of the car.

[Plug550]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zPOAaMM7DvY&feat...

Amazing footage linked to the one above, also involving Berger. I'd forgotten just what a lucky chap Gerherd was on that particular day. Same corner as Senna as well.

[evenflow]

Plug550 said:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zPOAaMM7DvY&feat...

Amazing footage linked to the one above, also involving Berger. I'd forgotten just what a lucky chap Gerherd was on that particular day. Same corner as Senna as well.

Yep, quite a crash that. I vividly remember watching it with my dad (I was 12 in '89) and him commenting that I should prepare myself to hear the worst.

He was very, very lucky to escape that.

[FourWheelDrift]

Plug550 said:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zPOAaMM7DvY&feat...

Amazing footage linked to the one above, also involving Berger. I'd forgotten just what a lucky chap Gerherd was on that particular day. Same corner as Senna as well.

Piquet's accident in 1987 was even more like Senna's, although he went off the track backwards the point of contact, finish and even camera angle used mirrored Senna's 7 years later.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=w1uKlyZDYcg

[lewis1]

FourWheelDrift said:

evenflow said:

FourWheelDrift said:

In 93 there was always the strong possibility of suspension intrusion into the cockpit with a side impact that heavy. The last GP weekend incident of suspension into the cockpit causing an injury I recall was Ralf Schumacher at Monaco in 2000.

Wasn't that essentially what did for Senna?

No that was the wheel coming back into the cockpit, the injury I was referring to was the suspension points breaking and the wishbones/steering rack or whatever spearing into the side of the cockpit. Penetrating near the feet or lower legs causing either injury or preventing the driver from getting out of the car.

no it wasnt the wheel. it was part of the suspension.

[FourWheelDrift]

That was attached to the wheel. I was trying to explain the difference between what happened and normal ankle breaking suspension intrusion into the cockpit.

It has never been proven what actually killed Senna as there were three instances that could have equally done so. Firstly the wheel’s impact pushing his head back against the headrest causing fatal skull fractures. There was also a piece of the front right upright attached to the wheel which partially penetrated his helmet and caused injury to his forehead and a piece of the upright assembly had penetrated the helmet visor just above his right eye.

[lewis1]

if you see the williams suspension of the cars after senna's death in 94 you would see pretty clearly what they think killed him
not my place to say though but it was almost certainly part of the suspension.
when i read your post i thought you meant the wheel hitting him directly
sorry for the miss understanding

[FourWheelDrift]

No problem.