Differences in Advanced Driving Techniques
Discussion
I was asked the other day whether or not the Police Advanced Driving Certificate reached the same standard as the Institute of Advanced Motorists.
The answer is..............of course!
The main difference,taking away the Pursuit part altogether for obvious reasons, is the fact that the Police are not restricted to a maximum of 70mph.
There is a big difference in doing a commentary at over 100mph....apart from talking faster, youre mind works faster as do your reactions.
Both courses are extremely good and i have the utmost respect for people who have passed both.
The main thing to remember is that both courses are a grounding....its only afterwards that you start to hone your skills and learn from experiences.
The answer is..............of course!
The main difference,taking away the Pursuit part altogether for obvious reasons, is the fact that the Police are not restricted to a maximum of 70mph.
There is a big difference in doing a commentary at over 100mph....apart from talking faster, youre mind works faster as do your reactions.
Both courses are extremely good and i have the utmost respect for people who have passed both.
The main thing to remember is that both courses are a grounding....its only afterwards that you start to hone your skills and learn from experiences.
So to pose a question. You may remember a while back you replied to a post I made about an off duty wpc flashing a badge at me threatning to report me for my driving - which I vehemently disagreed with - she was having a bad day.
At which point does her road sense become qualified to say what manoveres are good and bad? If she has only passed a normal everyday driving test, but has read up on the laws of the road, is she better qualified than myself to determine if driving style is inconsiderate or dangerous?
And to add - I've done the ROSPA (not IAM but they're much the same arn't they) advanced test twice and got gold twice.
Your thoughts.
Dave
At which point does her road sense become qualified to say what manoveres are good and bad? If she has only passed a normal everyday driving test, but has read up on the laws of the road, is she better qualified than myself to determine if driving style is inconsiderate or dangerous?
And to add - I've done the ROSPA (not IAM but they're much the same arn't they) advanced test twice and got gold twice.
Your thoughts.
Dave
This depends on a lot of points.......and i do remember your question.
As a Police Officer, you see peoples driving everytime that you patrol.You have discretion to deal with peoples driving faults in lots of different ways.
I cant comment on this particular Officers driving experience or in fact Police experience. Both of these would have a bearing on any possible outcome.
If i report someone for a particular offence, i would have a very good idea what evidence is/was required to secure a conviction at Court.
I know for a fact that when ive been off duty ive seen people driving in a very dangerous way and no doubt if i had stopped them then they would probably think that there was nothing wrong with their driving.
This is not to say that their driving at the time would secure a conviction for an offence...merely that it causes concern.
As a Police Officer, you see peoples driving everytime that you patrol.You have discretion to deal with peoples driving faults in lots of different ways.
I cant comment on this particular Officers driving experience or in fact Police experience. Both of these would have a bearing on any possible outcome.
If i report someone for a particular offence, i would have a very good idea what evidence is/was required to secure a conviction at Court.
I know for a fact that when ive been off duty ive seen people driving in a very dangerous way and no doubt if i had stopped them then they would probably think that there was nothing wrong with their driving.
This is not to say that their driving at the time would secure a conviction for an offence...merely that it causes concern.
Cheers, not quite what I was getting at. I'll try and rephrase. or to put bluntly! Do all PC's have to pass advanced driving tests, or do some simply walk/be passengers on the beat? Therefore if a pc's interpretation say of an overtake (no relavence to previous post) was that it was dangerous, was different to that of a 40 yr old with IAM/ROSPA gold passes, no points, no accident history and with 0,000's of miles under their belt - who is likely to be the more expert witness?
The pc with expertise in section this and section that law or the experienced and 'safe' driver. I guess what I'm getting at is are all pcs qualified to interpret traffic events?
Dave
p.s. Many thanks for advice on previous post, nothing came through the letter box. But I was ready to pull the advanced driver card out of the hat to use as my greater knowledge of driving - wondering whether it would have mattered in the slightest?
The pc with expertise in section this and section that law or the experienced and 'safe' driver. I guess what I'm getting at is are all pcs qualified to interpret traffic events?
Dave
p.s. Many thanks for advice on previous post, nothing came through the letter box. But I was ready to pull the advanced driver card out of the hat to use as my greater knowledge of driving - wondering whether it would have mattered in the slightest?
Some Police Officers are not Police drivers, some are trained to drive Panda cars. The next stage is to drive a Response vehicle and then there are a few Advanced Drivers (Pursuit trained).
In answer to your question, Police Officers are trained to recognise the Point to Prove relating to a variety of Road Traffic Offences...its the nature of the job.
Probably not the answer that you were hoping for but one that you were expecting- no doubt.
In short, as explained in my previous answer, there is a broad spectrum of Driving experience within the Service but we are all initially trained to the same level to report drivers for a variety of Motoring Offences.
As far as the advice goes...you are very welcome.
>> Edited by tonyrec on Wednesday 1st October 22:02
In answer to your question, Police Officers are trained to recognise the Point to Prove relating to a variety of Road Traffic Offences...its the nature of the job.
Probably not the answer that you were hoping for but one that you were expecting- no doubt.
In short, as explained in my previous answer, there is a broad spectrum of Driving experience within the Service but we are all initially trained to the same level to report drivers for a variety of Motoring Offences.
As far as the advice goes...you are very welcome.
>> Edited by tonyrec on Wednesday 1st October 22:02
To take Tony's point one stage further, if the IAM or RoSPA tests were the higher standard, why is it a requirement that all examiners must hold a minimum of the Police class 1?
Not all Police drivers hold an advanced qualification, usually only those who drive high performance vehicles, for example traffic officers, armed response vehicle drivers and the like. Drivers of low powered vehicles usually do no more than a standard driving course and have no further training unless they have a bang.
There have been numerous occasions when I have been passed by panda cars on a shout, and to be honest I have cringed at the way the vehicle was being driven, and in some cases even traffic cars are not driven with the same degree of pride or care as when I served, and that was only 8 - 9 years ago.
As far as your RoSPA gold is concerned, it is recognised as being the highest civillian qualification available in the UK, and is in fact equal to that of a Police class 2, the biggest difference as Tony says is that police drivers are taught at speed and every waking moment of the day for 4 weeks at a time is devoted to fine tuning these skills, whereas wih all respect to civillian drivers, they are taught within the confines of the speed limits over a longer period of time. That having been said, I have examined many drivers on behalf of RoSPA and many of the gold grades I award wouldbe quite capable (Funds and time permitting) of obtaining a Police class 1.
The IAM pass is the equal of a RoSPA bronze, and this was agreed between RoSPA and the Institute about 4 years ago when the DSA started monitoring all advanced tests. That is not to say that IAM drivers are incapable of attaining gold, but simply because of their pass/fail marking system, there is no way of differentiating between the standards, in any case by the Institutes own admittance, the IAM are quantity whilst RoSPA are quality.
Not all Police drivers hold an advanced qualification, usually only those who drive high performance vehicles, for example traffic officers, armed response vehicle drivers and the like. Drivers of low powered vehicles usually do no more than a standard driving course and have no further training unless they have a bang.
There have been numerous occasions when I have been passed by panda cars on a shout, and to be honest I have cringed at the way the vehicle was being driven, and in some cases even traffic cars are not driven with the same degree of pride or care as when I served, and that was only 8 - 9 years ago.
As far as your RoSPA gold is concerned, it is recognised as being the highest civillian qualification available in the UK, and is in fact equal to that of a Police class 2, the biggest difference as Tony says is that police drivers are taught at speed and every waking moment of the day for 4 weeks at a time is devoted to fine tuning these skills, whereas wih all respect to civillian drivers, they are taught within the confines of the speed limits over a longer period of time. That having been said, I have examined many drivers on behalf of RoSPA and many of the gold grades I award wouldbe quite capable (Funds and time permitting) of obtaining a Police class 1.
The IAM pass is the equal of a RoSPA bronze, and this was agreed between RoSPA and the Institute about 4 years ago when the DSA started monitoring all advanced tests. That is not to say that IAM drivers are incapable of attaining gold, but simply because of their pass/fail marking system, there is no way of differentiating between the standards, in any case by the Institutes own admittance, the IAM are quantity whilst RoSPA are quality.
Cheers again - nice and informative
t-c - btw I wasn't implying that rospa/iam was higher standard than class 1 bib - but is probably indicative of greater road sense than an untrained / trained to a normal MOP driver standard.
No doubt the persuit boys know a shed load more about driving than than IAM guys etc.
Interesting also that IAM pass is only the equiv of bronze ROSPA, feel all the more chuffed with the gold now. Have found that courses like drivetrain also help with car control rather than road knowledge/craft etc etc.
Cheers
t-c - btw I wasn't implying that rospa/iam was higher standard than class 1 bib - but is probably indicative of greater road sense than an untrained / trained to a normal MOP driver standard.
No doubt the persuit boys know a shed load more about driving than than IAM guys etc.
Interesting also that IAM pass is only the equiv of bronze ROSPA, feel all the more chuffed with the gold now. Have found that courses like drivetrain also help with car control rather than road knowledge/craft etc etc.
Cheers
A police officer will report the facts to a court, i.e. what they have seen, and it is up to the court to decide if there is sufficient evidence to convict for careless, dangerous driving. The only opinion all police officers can give is of speed and drunkeness.
The CPS will look at the circumstances of the incident - other vehicles forced to take avoiding action is a classic - when coming to a decision whether to prosecute.
By the way, it is not only police officers who can exceed the limit in police vehicles, the test is whether the vehicle is being used for police purposes. I was taken out by Peter Gethin in a driving school 4x4 Sierra about 15 years ago. We hit maximum revs in top.
Derek
The CPS will look at the circumstances of the incident - other vehicles forced to take avoiding action is a classic - when coming to a decision whether to prosecute.
By the way, it is not only police officers who can exceed the limit in police vehicles, the test is whether the vehicle is being used for police purposes. I was taken out by Peter Gethin in a driving school 4x4 Sierra about 15 years ago. We hit maximum revs in top.
Derek
tonyrec said:tonyrec, this worked for me too in the days when I was racing. Coming back from a race meeting where I had been driving at speeds up to 170 mph my mind was still running at that speed (especially if it had been the last race of the day and I'd driven straight home) ... even though I'd be driving a lot slower on the road. I remember Jackie Stewart telling me that for him everything seemed to happen in slow motion in an F1 race - Streaky
[snip]There is a big difference in doing a commentary at over 100mph....apart from talking faster, youre mind works faster as do your reactions. [snip]
Don said:
Is it correct that an IAM pass is only a ROSPA Bronze? In our group we usually talk about it being a Silver?
I'm going to have to try the ROSPA test sometime soon to compare for myself...
Yes it is. 4 years ago just before the DSA started monitoring advanced tests conducted by RoSPA, IAM and Diamond Advanced, a minimum standard had to be agreed between the main organisations, and the only way a minimum standard could be agreed was to put the IAM pass on the same level as the RoSPA bronze which the Institute accepted.
There are IAM members who drive or ride at the higher level, but conversly, over the past couple of years when I am examining IAM members for the RoSPA test, I have failed about 45% (in other words I have not awarded a grade) because the standard of driving or riding was that poor.
When I run the motorcycle diploma course, we get quite a few IAM members who are observers (which is a requirement to attend the course unless holding a gold) and a lot of the Institute riders struggle big time.
I am not knocking the IAM, I applaud anyone who is making an effort to educate people and improve road safety, but, there is a marked difference between the IAM standards and the standards we are looking at for a RoSPA grading.
I'm due to start my IAM course next thursday, any tips?
I'm also a bit concerned about what the observer/examiner may percieve about my car. I might be paranoid but it's somewhat louder and "bumpier" than many other cars which gives an impression of travelling at a speed greater than what you actually are.
Would I be at any disadvantage in my ZR compared to a more "refined" vehicle such as my Dad's 45/75?
I'm also a bit concerned about what the observer/examiner may percieve about my car. I might be paranoid but it's somewhat louder and "bumpier" than many other cars which gives an impression of travelling at a speed greater than what you actually are.
Would I be at any disadvantage in my ZR compared to a more "refined" vehicle such as my Dad's 45/75?
mechsympathy said:
Unless of course you are accepted by the Court as a expert (due to knowledge and experience gained in a particuler subject).
Yours isn't spelling then
Sorry, couldn't help myself[/quote]
I must type slower
I must type slower
I must type slower
I must type slower
I must type slower
I must type slower
I must type slower
Muncher83 said:
I'm due to start my IAM course next thursday, any tips?
I'm also a bit concerned about what the observer/examiner may percieve about my car. I might be paranoid but it's somewhat louder and "bumpier" than many other cars which gives an impression of travelling at a speed greater than what you actually are.
Would I be at any disadvantage in my ZR compared to a more "refined" vehicle such as my Dad's 45/75?
Dont be worried about your car and the most important point is to go in with an open mind and you will enjoy.
Muncher83 said:
I'm due to start my IAM course next thursday, any tips?
I'm also a bit concerned about what the observer/examiner may percieve about my car. I might be paranoid but it's somewhat louder and "bumpier" than many other cars which gives an impression of travelling at a speed greater than what you actually are.
Would I be at any disadvantage in my ZR compared to a more "refined" vehicle such as my Dad's 45/75?
Be prepared to listen to and subsequently try new ideas and techniques.
Much of what is taught at advanced level goes against the grain of what is taught to pass the L test, coupled with the fact that you have probably developed habits over the years which you will probably/possibly find difficult to break, if you work at it, practice the new ideas and stick with it not only will the new ideas start to fall into place and become more natural, it will ultimately enhance the
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