FAO Lawyers: My code IP rights
Discussion
Hi,
I have heard of cases where a developer working for a company is also making his own personal projects in his own time, using his own equipment yet the company he works for tries to claim ownership for the project. I really find this annoying, and bang out of order. It should also be illegal.
I am in this position (work for a company and working on my own systems - from small class libraries used to practise what I learn in my exam revision to a large commercial-scale system). While I don't know if the company will try to take ownership, all I know is they say they do not want a conflict of interest. Fair enough, my system is developed in my own time using my own equipment. They also say that work time should be for work only, which it is. Funny thing that as work is so boring, easy and slow that I have plenty of free time, which I wish I could spend on something productive - said system. The problem is, my company does not take hiring technical talent seriously. This is my first job, I am a junior coder (but my status/position doesn't really reflect what I can do), but I am the only developer. Likewise with the guy who controls Windows Server. As the contract does not say anything about taking ownership, I would assume they would. They would try to milk my success (I've made a good impression so I am sure they would).
How can this be allowed? Are there any examples of this happening to anyone here? It really makes my blood boil.
What I find funny is that my company hardly has the expertise and resources to even be able to successfully run a project of my size. What I do at work is an ASP.NET application consisting of five pages, and even then there are flaws in the project from previous devs and its approach. If I told them that they would also have to take responsibility for flaws in the project, then they would think twice! It's exactly because of this I save the best code for myself and at work I write rubbish code. The company don't really care about error handling, as long as the business functionality works (ie a scheduled email sends, but there is no error handling). They'd think twice when they see the embarassment and business cost of an error screen... /Vent over!
If it was definate that my, or any, company would do this, and I haven't mentioned anything but I am working on my own projects which don't compete with what my company does, how can I protect my code and rights?
Thanks
I have heard of cases where a developer working for a company is also making his own personal projects in his own time, using his own equipment yet the company he works for tries to claim ownership for the project. I really find this annoying, and bang out of order. It should also be illegal.
I am in this position (work for a company and working on my own systems - from small class libraries used to practise what I learn in my exam revision to a large commercial-scale system). While I don't know if the company will try to take ownership, all I know is they say they do not want a conflict of interest. Fair enough, my system is developed in my own time using my own equipment. They also say that work time should be for work only, which it is. Funny thing that as work is so boring, easy and slow that I have plenty of free time, which I wish I could spend on something productive - said system. The problem is, my company does not take hiring technical talent seriously. This is my first job, I am a junior coder (but my status/position doesn't really reflect what I can do), but I am the only developer. Likewise with the guy who controls Windows Server. As the contract does not say anything about taking ownership, I would assume they would. They would try to milk my success (I've made a good impression so I am sure they would).
How can this be allowed? Are there any examples of this happening to anyone here? It really makes my blood boil.
What I find funny is that my company hardly has the expertise and resources to even be able to successfully run a project of my size. What I do at work is an ASP.NET application consisting of five pages, and even then there are flaws in the project from previous devs and its approach. If I told them that they would also have to take responsibility for flaws in the project, then they would think twice! It's exactly because of this I save the best code for myself and at work I write rubbish code. The company don't really care about error handling, as long as the business functionality works (ie a scheduled email sends, but there is no error handling). They'd think twice when they see the embarassment and business cost of an error screen... /Vent over!
If it was definate that my, or any, company would do this, and I haven't mentioned anything but I am working on my own projects which don't compete with what my company does, how can I protect my code and rights?
Thanks
timskipper said:
You sound like a valuable employee. They should count themselves lucky to have you. No, really...
Thanks! That means a lot as I don't get much praise for my efforts that go towards my professional career, both in and out of work.I'd also like to add that this is even more annoying because working on personal or other people's projects is seen as a sign of great passion (I've done to this a testing extent). But if I say "yeah I'm working on xyz in my own time", then get a job offer, and the contract has all sorts of draconian clauses in it which try to take ownership of what I do, then there'd be issues and the risk of the potential employee walking away from the job offer.
Kind of (well is) contradictory. This is what employers want to see, then they discourage this.
My contract also says, along with the conflict of interest stuff in that section about outside work, that I cannot do paid work outside of my job. So what about painting someone's house? Or, if what I build makes me money yet maintaining it is "work" (technically it would be), is that not allowed? I will do as I please in my free time. I am paid to write code for the company, I am not paid to be disallowed to continue my hobbies/develop myself (not that my company would train me).
My company better value me as I am the only developer so all technical projects come my way.
Z064life said:
timskipper said:
You sound like a valuable employee. They should count themselves lucky to have you. No, really...
Thanks! That means a lot as I don't get much praise for my efforts that go towards my professional career, both in and out of work.I'd also like to add that this is even more annoying because working on personal or other people's projects is seen as a sign of great passion (I've done to this a testing extent). But if I say "yeah I'm working on xyz in my own time", then get a job offer, and the contract has all sorts of draconian clauses in it which try to take ownership of what I do, then there'd be issues and the risk of the potential employee walking away from the job offer.
Kind of (well is) contradictory. This is what employers want to see, then they discourage this.
My contract also says, along with the conflict of interest stuff in that section about outside work, that I cannot do paid work outside of my job. So what about painting someone's house? Or, if what I build makes me money yet maintaining it is "work" (technically it would be), is that not allowed? I will do as I please in my free time. I am paid to write code for the company, I am not paid to be disallowed to continue my hobbies/develop myself (not that my company would train me).
My company better value me as I am the only developer so all technical projects come my way.
I don't want to be harsh but this is the bit that worries me:
Z064life said:
...It's exactly because of this I save the best code for myself and at work I write rubbish code...
As far as you have said you have accepted a contract whereby you are paid a salary to:1) Bring your 'A game' to work, and
2) Not produce work for someone else.
From what you have said you are doing neither. You agreed not to work for someone else. When Man United players sign up they agree to refrain from alcohol for 100% of the time apart from very specific occasions. It doesn't matter whether they think that will affect them - that is what they are paid to do.
If you don't like your job or or contract with regard to ownership of works by all means take this up with your employer to have your contract changed. Otherwise, fulfill what you have agreed - as by your own admission you are not bringing the best of your skills to work.
Your 18 and not savvy with the ways of the world. You think you are a s
t hot coder but write rubbish for the people paying you a wage. You need to grow up fast....
Companies have T&C's of employment in an attempt to protect themselves they won't be interested in your 'Hello World' code especially if you don't tell them. If it is on your own time and machine then how will they ever find out and why would they give a st.
5 Page ASP full of mistakes eh..... hmmmm good enough to pay your salary though eh.
If I had a quid for every tt who thought he code write code I would have a lot of pound coins by now.........
t hot coder but write rubbish for the people paying you a wage. You need to grow up fast....Companies have T&C's of employment in an attempt to protect themselves they won't be interested in your 'Hello World' code especially if you don't tell them. If it is on your own time and machine then how will they ever find out and why would they give a s
t.5 Page ASP full of mistakes eh..... hmmmm good enough to pay your salary though eh.
If I had a quid for every t
t who thought he code write code I would have a lot of pound coins by now.........Jubal said:
maybe developers are easier to find than customers?
Developers are ten a penny. Developers who have a clue what they're doing however, are getting harder to find.I've just hired another 3 developers for a project and the number of absolute numpties that showed up and failed the technical test was shocking. One guy claimed 3 years C# experience and in 45 minutes managed to a) fart so badly it cleared half the office (literally) and b) drag a grid control onto a form. That was it.
It's usually the ones shouting they're the greatest coders ever too.
Z064life said:
Hi,
<snip>
Funny thing that as work is so boring, easy and slow that I have plenty of free time, which I wish I could spend on something productive......
<snip>
What I do at work is an ASP.NET application consisting of five pages, and even then there are flaws in the project from previous devs and its approach.
If there are known flaws in the system how can you say you have spare time at work? Get them fixed!<snip>
Funny thing that as work is so boring, easy and slow that I have plenty of free time, which I wish I could spend on something productive......
<snip>
What I do at work is an ASP.NET application consisting of five pages, and even then there are flaws in the project from previous devs and its approach.
Z064life said:
<snip>
I save the best code for myself and at work I write rubbish code.
You can't be that sI save the best code for myself and at work I write rubbish code.
t hot a coder if you have that attitude. Sounds like you and your job are made for each other.Meanwhile back at the ranch.....
Not code based but a few years ago I did have to take some legal advice on IP with regards to emplopyees who were given some works time, expenses and kit to develop work which would more broadly help the organisation, but who did most of the work in their own time.
The advice we got was that if it was developed in company time fully or partly, we owned it unless the contract said otherwise and that if the employee wanted a bit of the action so to speak s/he needed to get agreement in writing up front or do it in their own time/kit/money without any work input (ie not using advice from work, contacts developed at work, expect work to shift work about to suit their project).
I think you would need to log all activity on the home projects and make absolutely sure that not one bit of code in their program/system appeared in yours because I fear they would argue that you had developed that for them in their time, even if you had done it at home as part of the home project and taken it in because you could see a use at work for it.
When I use outside web develpers they now have to sign a declaration and assignmnet saying the code is all original and that we own it (PH advice) as I understod that developers own code unless otherwise agreed, although I think the employee thing trumps that.
Not code based but a few years ago I did have to take some legal advice on IP with regards to emplopyees who were given some works time, expenses and kit to develop work which would more broadly help the organisation, but who did most of the work in their own time.
The advice we got was that if it was developed in company time fully or partly, we owned it unless the contract said otherwise and that if the employee wanted a bit of the action so to speak s/he needed to get agreement in writing up front or do it in their own time/kit/money without any work input (ie not using advice from work, contacts developed at work, expect work to shift work about to suit their project).
I think you would need to log all activity on the home projects and make absolutely sure that not one bit of code in their program/system appeared in yours because I fear they would argue that you had developed that for them in their time, even if you had done it at home as part of the home project and taken it in because you could see a use at work for it.
When I use outside web develpers they now have to sign a declaration and assignmnet saying the code is all original and that we own it (PH advice) as I understod that developers own code unless otherwise agreed, although I think the employee thing trumps that.
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