111S tuning options.....
Discussion
Hi All
After 3 years in the wilderness I think I am on the edge of Elise ownership again!
I'm looking at S2 111S' and as usual the slippery slope of tuning options crops up.
Have any of you tuned your S2 111S and if so what have you done and what were the end results like in terms of power, torque and day to day drivability? Also what bits did you change to up the power?
Finally does the VVC engine like all the extras, does it confuse the ECU?
Ta - Paul
After 3 years in the wilderness I think I am on the edge of Elise ownership again!
I'm looking at S2 111S' and as usual the slippery slope of tuning options crops up.
Have any of you tuned your S2 111S and if so what have you done and what were the end results like in terms of power, torque and day to day drivability? Also what bits did you change to up the power?
Finally does the VVC engine like all the extras, does it confuse the ECU?
Ta - Paul
As above really, DVA power is definitely worth a look in if you want significant gains. You can go one of two ways, all out, or just tweaking. (I say DVA power, there are other well respected tuners, like KiwiRog on seloc amongst others. DVA is 'famous' for K series tuning though, and a thoroughly nice chap to boot!)
Tweaking on the s2 111s:
4-2-1 manifold, extra mid range torque.
Improved exhaust cam, better timing, ported head (DVA says 175HP odd up from 156)
this maintains stock ECU, VVC mech etc..
More in depth:
piper cams, vernier pulleys, emerald ECU.
more again:
better pistons etc...
There are other 'simpler' things you can do like
52mm throttle body (no real hp)
Hurricane induction (just noise)
4-2-1 exhaust manifold - supposed to help mid range torque, paired with teh k20a kit is meant to give a few hp more
sports exhaust (not much gain again)
Mine has all these simple things and a 4-2-1, email me if you are buying
I personally think that realistically with the VVC K series the best bang-for-buck would be the dva improved exhaust cam, timing, ported head (K20a kit). This gives a useful 180hp with the 4-2-1. This will cost around £2.2-2.8K to do. The reason I say this and not his quoted £1.5K is that I was seriously considering the K20a kit from DVA so called him up to chat. His opinion was that I'd almost certainly need, over and above the 'standard kit'
-new liners (75% of cars need them as they have sunk)
-new piston rings
-new VVC mech (as mine has a fair few miles on it, only £80 odd though for one of his low milage 2nd hand ones)
-possibly a new head (depends on head hardness, won't know until it's off, its a £300 gamble and there is just no way of knowing)
-PRRT at the same time to prevent HGF (not *needed* but would be silly not to)
-new crank bearings
The benefit of doing all this work, is that effectively, the engine would be as good as (well better than) new when done. A reliable 180hp, and properly sorted. I just think, that given the 'gamble' on the head and liners potentially pushing the cost up to near 3K if I get unlucky, that I'm better off leaving as it, it runs fine and that's quite a lot of cash. I have no douibt a DVA'd car would pull&go much better than stock, I am still *thinking* about it, but the decision is more difficult at that price level. If I knew I could escape at £2.25K I think I'd pull the trigger........ 3K is lots though :S
Anyway, yes, the other option is balls out, but I think stock ECU and VVC is a solid place to be, to go over that starts costing a lot more, and apparently pushing K seires to 200hp odd starts hurting reliability too. If you chuck £5K at a K series you are mad, as you are better to save a few more pennies and get the honda that everyone knows you want really
Tweaking on the s2 111s:
4-2-1 manifold, extra mid range torque.
Improved exhaust cam, better timing, ported head (DVA says 175HP odd up from 156)
this maintains stock ECU, VVC mech etc..
More in depth:
piper cams, vernier pulleys, emerald ECU.
more again:
better pistons etc...
There are other 'simpler' things you can do like
52mm throttle body (no real hp)
Hurricane induction (just noise)
4-2-1 exhaust manifold - supposed to help mid range torque, paired with teh k20a kit is meant to give a few hp more
sports exhaust (not much gain again)
Mine has all these simple things and a 4-2-1, email me if you are buying
I personally think that realistically with the VVC K series the best bang-for-buck would be the dva improved exhaust cam, timing, ported head (K20a kit). This gives a useful 180hp with the 4-2-1. This will cost around £2.2-2.8K to do. The reason I say this and not his quoted £1.5K is that I was seriously considering the K20a kit from DVA so called him up to chat. His opinion was that I'd almost certainly need, over and above the 'standard kit'
-new liners (75% of cars need them as they have sunk)
-new piston rings
-new VVC mech (as mine has a fair few miles on it, only £80 odd though for one of his low milage 2nd hand ones)
-possibly a new head (depends on head hardness, won't know until it's off, its a £300 gamble and there is just no way of knowing)
-PRRT at the same time to prevent HGF (not *needed* but would be silly not to)
-new crank bearings
The benefit of doing all this work, is that effectively, the engine would be as good as (well better than) new when done. A reliable 180hp, and properly sorted. I just think, that given the 'gamble' on the head and liners potentially pushing the cost up to near 3K if I get unlucky, that I'm better off leaving as it, it runs fine and that's quite a lot of cash. I have no douibt a DVA'd car would pull&go much better than stock, I am still *thinking* about it, but the decision is more difficult at that price level. If I knew I could escape at £2.25K I think I'd pull the trigger........ 3K is lots though :S
Anyway, yes, the other option is balls out, but I think stock ECU and VVC is a solid place to be, to go over that starts costing a lot more, and apparently pushing K seires to 200hp odd starts hurting reliability too. If you chuck £5K at a K series you are mad, as you are better to save a few more pennies and get the honda that everyone knows you want really
Edited by stuthemong on Sunday 2nd November 20:45
Edited by stuthemong on Sunday 2nd November 20:46
stuthemong said:
Anyway, yes, the other option is balls out, but I think stock ECU and VVC is a solid place to be, to go over that starts costing a lot more, and apparently pushing K seires to 200hp odd starts hurting reliability too. If you chuck £5K at a K series you are mad, as you are better to save a few more pennies and get the honda that everyone knows you want really
There is a significant difference between 5K and the price of the Honda conversion, it's not like your £1500 short at £5000 is it? If Honda is the way you want to go, then I'd recommend getting a car someone has already converted.Edited by stuthemong on Sunday 2nd November 20:45
Edited by stuthemong on Sunday 2nd November 20:46
Obviously a large difference between upto 5K for the K tuning and
over 10K for a Honda job. Would any tuning retain any value on the
Rover engine? I imagine over 50% would on the Honda conversion and
would be an easier car to sell in future. I dont know, just my thoughts.
Russ. (111S and in the same boat )
over 10K for a Honda job. Would any tuning retain any value on the
Rover engine? I imagine over 50% would on the Honda conversion and
would be an easier car to sell in future. I dont know, just my thoughts.
Russ. (111S and in the same boat
)Thanks very much chaps, lots of info there. Maybe I should have said earlier that I (Dan @ JPS) tuned my S1 to 172bhp with most of the mods mentioned above. What I wanted to know was specific to the 111S S2. I remember from a while back that some S1 111S owners fitted 4-2-1 manifolds and sports filters and the car didn't like the mods, cant remember the symptoms, this was with the stock MEMS ECU though.
Just looked at the DVA K06 kit (185 BHP) figures look good but as usual this will need a 4-2-1, de-cat, good exhaust, sports air filter. it mentions blanking off the VVC mechanism though - does this effectivly mean the VVC is removed and its back to a standard K series head?
Dan - good to hear from you, drop me an email with your number as only have your old one - paul.wakinshaw@siemens.com
Ta
Just looked at the DVA K06 kit (185 BHP) figures look good but as usual this will need a 4-2-1, de-cat, good exhaust, sports air filter. it mentions blanking off the VVC mechanism though - does this effectivly mean the VVC is removed and its back to a standard K series head?
Dan - good to hear from you, drop me an email with your number as only have your old one - paul.wakinshaw@siemens.com
Ta
Russ,
As with all things, elise's dont have many buyers, and of those that do buy, only a small %age will look for a modded car. If you can find the right buyer you may get quite a bit of mod spending back (say 50%), but you have to get the right buyer.
Paul,
4-2-1 and induction is fine on stock ECU, the car doesnt complain.
These will help slightly with the K06a kit (sorry I incorrectly called it k20a in previous posts, I meant k06a. i.e. taking you to 175hp odd). To go more than that you require ECU upgrades (emerald) - hence that being somewhat of a cut-off point for 'easy' modding. My understanding from talking to Dave Andrews is that main gain is from correctly timing the valves and the longer duration exhaust valve on the K06a kit.
Remember that there are a million different variant K series heads around. The VVC head has large valves, so does not get the same gains from porting, as it's already pretty much there. You get a few HP from porting, but nothing like the 10's of hp you get off 120hp K heads when you port+enlarge valves.
Dave recommends a 4-2-1 on the k06a kit I think as it releases more horsies, but it's not a prerequisite. As for exhaust & induction, well all these things help, but I think you are speaking 1 or 2 hp here, not 10's. The stock setup is not too restrictive AFAIK, not around the 175 level (dave indicated approx 5hp more with a 4-2-1 on the k06a). If you went for the K06 setup, then I think you'll defo be wanting to do 4-2-1 & exhaust, induction should be taken care of for you..
With the K06 you blank off the VVC and fit fixed piper cams. You do this as you will want to go for longer duration cams than the VVC unit can do, and in doing so will almost certainly need a new ECU. You will probably get a worse idle and lose the gains that VVC gives you etc.. If you do this then pretty much to all intents & purposes you will have a 'standard' big valved ported K series head, ish.
Ultimately the K06 kit is serious modding to the car, and the K06a seems more like a bit of fettling. The K06 kit will cost you quite a bit more, and will change the character of the car quite a bit (will probably want to be revved to buggery).
Ultimately I only know what I have gathered myself. EVERYTHING written comes with the standard caveats. I'm sure I've made a couple of big faux-pas there (little knowledge is a dangerous thing....) but the gist should be ok I think.
The thing to remember is that if you go K06a you are pretty much going to fully rebuild the bottom end as well. It looks to me like the K06 is just top end work, so if you have to re-ring / change liners etc.. you'll need to add £1.5K onto that by the time you've whipped hte head off and done all that gubbins.
I guess I'm saying that unless you want to spend loadsa money, the K06a looks like a great way to spend the money, as it results in a fully sorted engine. The K06 requires a lot lot more than is itemised to get to a sorted engine.
How deep are your pockets?
As with all things, elise's dont have many buyers, and of those that do buy, only a small %age will look for a modded car. If you can find the right buyer you may get quite a bit of mod spending back (say 50%), but you have to get the right buyer.
Paul,
4-2-1 and induction is fine on stock ECU, the car doesnt complain.
These will help slightly with the K06a kit (sorry I incorrectly called it k20a in previous posts, I meant k06a. i.e. taking you to 175hp odd). To go more than that you require ECU upgrades (emerald) - hence that being somewhat of a cut-off point for 'easy' modding. My understanding from talking to Dave Andrews is that main gain is from correctly timing the valves and the longer duration exhaust valve on the K06a kit.
Remember that there are a million different variant K series heads around. The VVC head has large valves, so does not get the same gains from porting, as it's already pretty much there. You get a few HP from porting, but nothing like the 10's of hp you get off 120hp K heads when you port+enlarge valves.
Dave recommends a 4-2-1 on the k06a kit I think as it releases more horsies, but it's not a prerequisite. As for exhaust & induction, well all these things help, but I think you are speaking 1 or 2 hp here, not 10's. The stock setup is not too restrictive AFAIK, not around the 175 level (dave indicated approx 5hp more with a 4-2-1 on the k06a). If you went for the K06 setup, then I think you'll defo be wanting to do 4-2-1 & exhaust, induction should be taken care of for you..
With the K06 you blank off the VVC and fit fixed piper cams. You do this as you will want to go for longer duration cams than the VVC unit can do, and in doing so will almost certainly need a new ECU. You will probably get a worse idle and lose the gains that VVC gives you etc.. If you do this then pretty much to all intents & purposes you will have a 'standard' big valved ported K series head, ish.
Ultimately the K06 kit is serious modding to the car, and the K06a seems more like a bit of fettling. The K06 kit will cost you quite a bit more, and will change the character of the car quite a bit (will probably want to be revved to buggery).
Ultimately I only know what I have gathered myself. EVERYTHING written comes with the standard caveats. I'm sure I've made a couple of big faux-pas there (little knowledge is a dangerous thing....) but the gist should be ok I think.
The thing to remember is that if you go K06a you are pretty much going to fully rebuild the bottom end as well. It looks to me like the K06 is just top end work, so if you have to re-ring / change liners etc.. you'll need to add £1.5K onto that by the time you've whipped hte head off and done all that gubbins.
I guess I'm saying that unless you want to spend loadsa money, the K06a looks like a great way to spend the money, as it results in a fully sorted engine. The K06 requires a lot lot more than is itemised to get to a sorted engine.
How deep are your pockets?
Paul, one more thing.
If you do go K06 route I really think you'll be knocking on the door of £5K all done. (2K for kit 500 fitting, 500 airbox & 200 verneirs then youd surely want to fit PRRT & sort pistons/liners/port the head which is another 1.5K I'd guess... that's 4 and you may need a new head... ok so knocking on the door of 4.5K, not 5K.)
http://www.sinclairebodyshop.co.uk/hondaconversion...
OK it costs 8K+VAT, but you have to remember it comes with 2 years unlimited warranty, and if the engine lunches itself after that its 1.5K to source another.
IF you do 5K on a K series and it lunches itself you lose most of it save what you can salvage.
I'd recommend against spending >5K on a K series for this reason alone (to say nothing of the better power of a honda).
If you do go K06 route I really think you'll be knocking on the door of £5K all done. (2K for kit 500 fitting, 500 airbox & 200 verneirs then youd surely want to fit PRRT & sort pistons/liners/port the head which is another 1.5K I'd guess... that's 4 and you may need a new head... ok so knocking on the door of 4.5K, not 5K.)
http://www.sinclairebodyshop.co.uk/hondaconversion...
OK it costs 8K+VAT, but you have to remember it comes with 2 years unlimited warranty, and if the engine lunches itself after that its 1.5K to source another.
IF you do 5K on a K series and it lunches itself you lose most of it save what you can salvage.
I'd recommend against spending >5K on a K series for this reason alone (to say nothing of the better power of a honda).
more good stuff there fellas, Ta!
I guess JPS did me a good deal when they did my tuned "K" three years ago - I spend circa £2.5k for all the work inc labour and that included the Emerald.
i'm torn between doing the Honda thing or just getting a S2 111S and spending a few quid upping the power. The S1 route would be a long term project and that would mean buying an early S1 and doing it over about 4-5 years - Yawn!
The good thing is that i would fit a 4-2-1, plus exhaust, de-cat, and filter myself so that would get the basics correct. I think (waits to be corrected) that the bottom end would be ok doing 185BHP just as long as the rev limiter on the ECU was set at a sensible level say 7400.
finally i fancy a S2 deep down, had a S1 and now time for a S2, and being newer less likely to need work done to the suspension, brakes etc......
I guess JPS did me a good deal when they did my tuned "K" three years ago - I spend circa £2.5k for all the work inc labour and that included the Emerald.
i'm torn between doing the Honda thing or just getting a S2 111S and spending a few quid upping the power. The S1 route would be a long term project and that would mean buying an early S1 and doing it over about 4-5 years - Yawn!
The good thing is that i would fit a 4-2-1, plus exhaust, de-cat, and filter myself so that would get the basics correct. I think (waits to be corrected) that the bottom end would be ok doing 185BHP just as long as the rev limiter on the ECU was set at a sensible level say 7400.
finally i fancy a S2 deep down, had a S1 and now time for a S2, and being newer less likely to need work done to the suspension, brakes etc......
The bottom end can take 185 HP yes, but only if the bottom end is healthy.
If you buy a car second hand you have no idea what state the bottom end is in. I guess a compression test would be a start, and something I'd do at a minimum if I planned a lot of fruite top end work.
The Kseries are known for HGF, most cars >40K will have had HGF and been repaired, DVA can sort a K series so HGF is much much less likely to occur in the future, both by setting liner heights correctly, and sorting the head and fitting a PRRT. This is one of the attractive features of a k06a spec. I'd just have a lot of concern in putting 180hp through an unknown headgasket. I Think you are asking for trouble somewhat there. You are going to be pumping quite a bit more heat into the system, and it is heat that ultimately causes the problems (i.e. any weakness will be exaggerated).
I guess you are saying you just want to get more power, go in and do the bare minimum to get it. I'd suggest that while you are 'in there' you may as well get the engine 'sorted' so you know it's got 50K of very good running to come, rather than worrying if its just about to pop the whole time...
If you plan on keeping the car for a while, I think the K06a is the way to go on a s2 111s for the reasons I've described. Talking to DVA aswell I get the impression that the numbers on his site are slightly pessamistic, he doesn't over egg potentials, and thought that I'd see 180 odd with the k06a and my 4-2-1. I think that is a fair power increase for a lowish amount of money.
How 'real' was that 172 HP obtained in the S1? I ask, as it's unlikely you had a flywheel dyno on there, and therefore absolute HP ratings are a bit of a stab in the dark. What did you have done on your s1 111s? Was that a VVC engine aswell? (I'm not so hot on S1's)
Stu
If you buy a car second hand you have no idea what state the bottom end is in. I guess a compression test would be a start, and something I'd do at a minimum if I planned a lot of fruite top end work.
The Kseries are known for HGF, most cars >40K will have had HGF and been repaired, DVA can sort a K series so HGF is much much less likely to occur in the future, both by setting liner heights correctly, and sorting the head and fitting a PRRT. This is one of the attractive features of a k06a spec. I'd just have a lot of concern in putting 180hp through an unknown headgasket. I Think you are asking for trouble somewhat there. You are going to be pumping quite a bit more heat into the system, and it is heat that ultimately causes the problems (i.e. any weakness will be exaggerated).
I guess you are saying you just want to get more power, go in and do the bare minimum to get it. I'd suggest that while you are 'in there' you may as well get the engine 'sorted' so you know it's got 50K of very good running to come, rather than worrying if its just about to pop the whole time...
If you plan on keeping the car for a while, I think the K06a is the way to go on a s2 111s for the reasons I've described. Talking to DVA aswell I get the impression that the numbers on his site are slightly pessamistic, he doesn't over egg potentials, and thought that I'd see 180 odd with the k06a and my 4-2-1. I think that is a fair power increase for a lowish amount of money.
How 'real' was that 172 HP obtained in the S1? I ask, as it's unlikely you had a flywheel dyno on there, and therefore absolute HP ratings are a bit of a stab in the dark. What did you have done on your s1 111s? Was that a VVC engine aswell? (I'm not so hot on S1's)
Stu
Edited by stuthemong on Monday 3rd November 22:49
Edited by stuthemong on Monday 3rd November 22:50
Hi Mate,
I had a S1 (early one with Ali hubs etc) and when i got it it was standard apart from a Janspeed box. Over nearly three years it went from this state to the 172BHP with 142lb/ft torque with the following mods:
4-2-1, de-cat, elise parts exhaust
Hurricane, 52mm TB, S160 inlet matched to S160 Head with Paul Ivy valves
S160 cams, verniers, head skimmed, Emerald, and mabey a few bits i have forgot.
this was mapped and then run three times and all three runs were 172bhp.
Limiter was set to 7500. on the one and only track day i did i was faster along the straight than an Exige S2 and matched it through the corners, a lot of this is down to the driver i know, but it was a benchmark for me.
I had a S1 (early one with Ali hubs etc) and when i got it it was standard apart from a Janspeed box. Over nearly three years it went from this state to the 172BHP with 142lb/ft torque with the following mods:
4-2-1, de-cat, elise parts exhaust
Hurricane, 52mm TB, S160 inlet matched to S160 Head with Paul Ivy valves
S160 cams, verniers, head skimmed, Emerald, and mabey a few bits i have forgot.
this was mapped and then run three times and all three runs were 172bhp.
Limiter was set to 7500. on the one and only track day i did i was faster along the straight than an Exige S2 and matched it through the corners, a lot of this is down to the driver i know, but it was a benchmark for me.
Cool.
I guess it really depends what you are after. I have little doubt that K06a with a 4-2-1 will give you better figures than you had in the S1, ultimately the cars will probably feel similar, given the weight disadvantage of the s2.
The ko6 is moving away from a fettled standard car, to one that is more heavily modded. I suspect that insurance implications are worse with the k06 - it may be worth a call to your insurer too, to see their thoughts.
Certainly there are a lot of benefits in running an emerald in terms of control and tuning. I would certianly like one, but they are quite expensive for a 'toy' if they are not ultimately required.
Remember you can pick up pre-converted hondas for under 20K now (and theyll come with sorted brakes, nitrons etc.etc...)
Stu
I guess it really depends what you are after. I have little doubt that K06a with a 4-2-1 will give you better figures than you had in the S1, ultimately the cars will probably feel similar, given the weight disadvantage of the s2.
The ko6 is moving away from a fettled standard car, to one that is more heavily modded. I suspect that insurance implications are worse with the k06 - it may be worth a call to your insurer too, to see their thoughts.
Certainly there are a lot of benefits in running an emerald in terms of control and tuning. I would certianly like one, but they are quite expensive for a 'toy' if they are not ultimately required.
Remember you can pick up pre-converted hondas for under 20K now (and theyll come with sorted brakes, nitrons etc.etc...)
Stu
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