Why did we get the crappy box? :/
Discussion
It's a delima for sure. I own an 88, and thus far has been a lot of fun. I want to do so many little changes on the car, both for apperance and performance. However, the more I read, it seems like this car is doomed for it's gearbox.
The 50+ hp and newer gearbox sure make moving up to an SE mighty tempting... but then again, the cost to do such is higher.
Why did the US get the old gearbox in 88 while everyone else got the new ren box? :/ Bastards hehe
Uggg... winter is approaching, so it would be almost impossible to move an Esprit at a good price. What to do...what to do.
MM
The 50+ hp and newer gearbox sure make moving up to an SE mighty tempting... but then again, the cost to do such is higher.
Why did the US get the old gearbox in 88 while everyone else got the new ren box? :/ Bastards hehe
Uggg... winter is approaching, so it would be almost impossible to move an Esprit at a good price. What to do...what to do.
MM
A G50 box would be nice.
Also winter is a good time to move up to an SE. It is the end of the season and deals start ot appear as 1/2 the country is not really thinking this is a good time to buy. There is a big performance difference from an 88 to an SE.
Calvin
>> Edited by cnh1990 on Monday 6th October 21:53
Also winter is a good time to move up to an SE. It is the end of the season and deals start ot appear as 1/2 the country is not really thinking this is a good time to buy. There is a big performance difference from an 88 to an SE.
Calvin
>> Edited by cnh1990 on Monday 6th October 21:53
Hi,
There is nothing wrong with the Citroen gearbox! Think of it, it has been used in tens of thousands of examples (both Citroen and Lotus) for over twenty five years. It is generally known to be a reliable gearbox, certainly the equal, and most probably superior, to gearboxes in Triumphs, MGs, Jaguars, Austins, Datsuns and the like. In fact, there is much more legend than fact about the weakness of this gearbox. The fact is, relatively few gearboxes in the early cars have ever been, or need to be rebuilt. It has a twenty plus year reign as a reliable gearbox.
It's only when you try to make the box perform as it was not designed do you run into trouble. Like everything mechanical, it is designed for one set of circumstances and limits, when you exceed those limits... surprise!... the box breaks down.
Also, remember, it is a European gearbox and as such was designed by people who drive very differently as a whole than Americans do who are used to the heavy pig iron tranny's Detroit has been putting out for the past 80 years. Most Americans' driving style does not work in concert with a manual gearbox, in fact, it often works against it.
I am increasingly beginning to believe that many of the recent owners of older Esprits bought them only because they are cheaper than a later model. Then, they try and mod themselves into the performance of an SE. Fine, but then don't complain about the gearbox! When Lotus upped the HP of the Esprit, they also installed a gearbox better equipped to handle all the added horsepower, they didn't simply bolt on this go fast part or that one and expect the tranny to merely comply.
I broke my tranny apart last summer after 40k miles of hard, spirited use. The box showed no signs of wear on the dogs, the CW&P. Even the synchros, which I intended to change, showed so little wear, that I have saved them as possible replacements in the future. My clutch also had many more miles of use left in it.
So, I say, quit your b*tching! Either adopt driving habits or learn to drive a manual in a way that lessens the stress on the gearbox, live with the power the car came with, or stay up nights repairing your gearbox. Don't blame Lotus or Citroen for a poor design because you don't understand or can't accept using it in the way it was intended. Happy Moroting! Jim'85TE
There is nothing wrong with the Citroen gearbox! Think of it, it has been used in tens of thousands of examples (both Citroen and Lotus) for over twenty five years. It is generally known to be a reliable gearbox, certainly the equal, and most probably superior, to gearboxes in Triumphs, MGs, Jaguars, Austins, Datsuns and the like. In fact, there is much more legend than fact about the weakness of this gearbox. The fact is, relatively few gearboxes in the early cars have ever been, or need to be rebuilt. It has a twenty plus year reign as a reliable gearbox.
It's only when you try to make the box perform as it was not designed do you run into trouble. Like everything mechanical, it is designed for one set of circumstances and limits, when you exceed those limits... surprise!... the box breaks down.
Also, remember, it is a European gearbox and as such was designed by people who drive very differently as a whole than Americans do who are used to the heavy pig iron tranny's Detroit has been putting out for the past 80 years. Most Americans' driving style does not work in concert with a manual gearbox, in fact, it often works against it.
I am increasingly beginning to believe that many of the recent owners of older Esprits bought them only because they are cheaper than a later model. Then, they try and mod themselves into the performance of an SE. Fine, but then don't complain about the gearbox! When Lotus upped the HP of the Esprit, they also installed a gearbox better equipped to handle all the added horsepower, they didn't simply bolt on this go fast part or that one and expect the tranny to merely comply.
I broke my tranny apart last summer after 40k miles of hard, spirited use. The box showed no signs of wear on the dogs, the CW&P. Even the synchros, which I intended to change, showed so little wear, that I have saved them as possible replacements in the future. My clutch also had many more miles of use left in it.
So, I say, quit your b*tching! Either adopt driving habits or learn to drive a manual in a way that lessens the stress on the gearbox, live with the power the car came with, or stay up nights repairing your gearbox. Don't blame Lotus or Citroen for a poor design because you don't understand or can't accept using it in the way it was intended. Happy Moroting! Jim'85TE
MadMaxx said:
Jim,
I'm not sure how to take your tone in the post. Telling me to "stop b*tching" and learn how to drive? Please clarify so I know exactly what started the flame war.
MM
MM,
What exactly do you not understand?? Significantly increasing the horsepower in your Esprit will exceed the limits of the Citroen box causing it to fail.
There is a point where adding too much power to a 747 will tear it's wings off too! Does that means it has lousy wings???
The Esprit is what it is. Try to make it something else and it will, like any other car or mechanical unit, inevitably break.
Considering the relative rarity of these cars, if you want something that is significantly quicker, faster or more powerful, you might consider selling the Esprit and buying a car that offers something closer to what you want and leave the Esprit to someone who will better appreciate it for what it is.
Nothing wrong with updates and modifications which make the car more reliable or slightly increase performance, but when it comes to swapping the engine and/or tranny, or breaking the one you have by adding too much power, I think you're kidding yourself and wasting a good car in the bargain.
Learning the art of double-clutching and driving the car with finesse, you'll get better performance than with some bolt-on Go Fast part and preserve the car at the same time.
Consider forgoing the mods and spend the money taking a driving course. You may decide that you have already got more car than you realise or really need. Happy Motoring! ...Jim'85TE
Play nice people.
I have an 88 esprit turbo, with 55,000 miles and I have had no problems with the trans so far. And I am considered to be Extreamly hard on my car. I have done burn outs, I have done some street racing.
Ya I do wear out my clutch out alot. So what! And my trans is still good.
And All this was done running 15 PSI.
I have an 88 esprit turbo, with 55,000 miles and I have had no problems with the trans so far. And I am considered to be Extreamly hard on my car. I have done burn outs, I have done some street racing.
Ya I do wear out my clutch out alot. So what! And my trans is still good.
And All this was done running 15 PSI.
I'm not sure Jim was speaking to anyone in particular when he used the term "you" in his post. So it's not like he is making it personal or anything. He just feels if you enhance a car and then it breaks one should not complain about that. Everyone can mod their car but if something blows thats the way it is.
As far as buying an 88 and trying to get to SE performance. Heck I had to settle for an SE to try and get it up S4s performance.
I am not a perfect driver, make a few mistakes here and there, so the extra power I have is a good equalizer.
Calvin
As far as buying an 88 and trying to get to SE performance. Heck I had to settle for an SE to try and get it up S4s performance.
I am not a perfect driver, make a few mistakes here and there, so the extra power I have is a good equalizer.
Calvin
GUY JOHNSON said:
You can get SE or S4S performance out of your 88 it realy comes down to how much you want to spend. When I am done with my 88 I will be even with the S4S.
Guy
oh.... sort of, I guess it will be similar if you get the 300-330hp out an 88. Without the adjustable rears and no power steering to modify the front suspensions links it would be difficult. It will be no wonder when you wear out the clutch very quickly. The S4s has a stronger one than even an SE to handle the extra power. I suppose if the 88 clutch were to not slip then the tranny would take the brunt of the force.
Calvin
Their is to many things to list so hear are some of the high lights:
I replaced the old bosch injection with an all new electronic fuel injection system with one coil percylinder and a shortened intake. I will replace the turbo with a t3/t4 hybrid ball bearing , and change the pitch so the boost will come in earlier. I am then going to put on a custom intercooler. Bigger than what is currently on the S4S. Next will be a Direct port NOS injection system, rated at 100hp.
Then I will replace the body parts with lighter panels.
I will start to stiffen up the body and
suspension I will replace the the rear links with adjustable shocks, and the spring rates will be much heavier. I will replace the steering with a quicker ratio box.
Brakes will be wilwoods all the way around. Currently wilwoods 4 pots up front. The rear undicided.
Trans well That will be my secret for now.
Jim,
Just for clarification, I have had cars 200mph in the straits, and hard into the corners (with none of that TC crap to save your arse). My viper was pushing 700RWHP on a twin turbo system that *I* developed. I'm currently working on a Ferrari 512BBi boxer for a local Ferrari enthusiast. I do not think I need instruction on the mechanical limits of automotive tech.
The point of my post was that the 88 is the bastard year, and thus has been frustrating to make simple changes like a new steering wheel. Will I sell the Esprit? Maybe. But not for lack of HP. I have other cars lined up for that task. I'm not in the position to make the worlds only wheel-standing esprit LOL.
I enjoy the esprit for it's driving characteristics and mid-engine layout. I am dealing for an Aston Martin V8 at the moment, simply because I like the coachwork. When my house is finished, I'm buying myself a Diablo because I've always wanted one, and enjoyed the brute force of the 92 I drove.
So, before you go making assumptions on things, it pays to figure out exactly who you are talking to. I do enjoy your technical posts, but you do tend to take a holier-than-thou stance on all things lotus. Just my view, take it for what it's worth.
James
Just for clarification, I have had cars 200mph in the straits, and hard into the corners (with none of that TC crap to save your arse). My viper was pushing 700RWHP on a twin turbo system that *I* developed. I'm currently working on a Ferrari 512BBi boxer for a local Ferrari enthusiast. I do not think I need instruction on the mechanical limits of automotive tech.
The point of my post was that the 88 is the bastard year, and thus has been frustrating to make simple changes like a new steering wheel. Will I sell the Esprit? Maybe. But not for lack of HP. I have other cars lined up for that task. I'm not in the position to make the worlds only wheel-standing esprit LOL.
I enjoy the esprit for it's driving characteristics and mid-engine layout. I am dealing for an Aston Martin V8 at the moment, simply because I like the coachwork. When my house is finished, I'm buying myself a Diablo because I've always wanted one, and enjoyed the brute force of the 92 I drove.
So, before you go making assumptions on things, it pays to figure out exactly who you are talking to. I do enjoy your technical posts, but you do tend to take a holier-than-thou stance on all things lotus. Just my view, take it for what it's worth.
James
Guy,
You can be the Johan of the 4 cyl. world. But then again Johan has had the Esprit drive train out more than any other person I know. He is very good and from what I understand is very quick with the V8 repairs. He has many spares and subsidizes a small business selling parts to others. I suspect that you too will be very good at removal and replacement if you are not already. I believe Johan is exploring using the G50 tranny that they use in the 500+HP Ultima V8's, I'm not sure but I think he dropped the idea of the Quaife box. Adjustable shocks and springs are a fine idea for your car. I would think you still need to fabricate the adjustable suspension links for the fronts and rears. Even if you change the front steering ratio, I think you will still need the power steering. Lotus put one in because the steering is to clunky with the optimized front suspension settings and tires. But then again you are the one driving the car, so all that matters is how it feels to you.
Johan's car is a powerful car but if it came to a choice between is car or another I would rather have a 2000 or newer car myself. I like to drive my car a lot and not have too many days of down time. My car has only been down a total of 3 days in several years. I always seem to get it back on the road the same day or as quick as possible. I also schedule things so the parts are right there at the right time.
But whatever you do, even if you mod your car a lot, it will still be an 88 with mods just like mine will always be an 90 with a few mods. Mods however tastefully done will still be mods. It's still not the real thing. Just as margarine is to butter. But hey it's a hobby and the car enhancements/modifications are a part of it. Everyone has different threshold and the debate is much like the fitness vs body building of when and where to stop before one goes overboard.
Calvin
You can be the Johan of the 4 cyl. world. But then again Johan has had the Esprit drive train out more than any other person I know. He is very good and from what I understand is very quick with the V8 repairs. He has many spares and subsidizes a small business selling parts to others. I suspect that you too will be very good at removal and replacement if you are not already. I believe Johan is exploring using the G50 tranny that they use in the 500+HP Ultima V8's, I'm not sure but I think he dropped the idea of the Quaife box. Adjustable shocks and springs are a fine idea for your car. I would think you still need to fabricate the adjustable suspension links for the fronts and rears. Even if you change the front steering ratio, I think you will still need the power steering. Lotus put one in because the steering is to clunky with the optimized front suspension settings and tires. But then again you are the one driving the car, so all that matters is how it feels to you.
Johan's car is a powerful car but if it came to a choice between is car or another I would rather have a 2000 or newer car myself. I like to drive my car a lot and not have too many days of down time. My car has only been down a total of 3 days in several years. I always seem to get it back on the road the same day or as quick as possible. I also schedule things so the parts are right there at the right time.
But whatever you do, even if you mod your car a lot, it will still be an 88 with mods just like mine will always be an 90 with a few mods. Mods however tastefully done will still be mods. It's still not the real thing. Just as margarine is to butter. But hey it's a hobby and the car enhancements/modifications are a part of it. Everyone has different threshold and the debate is much like the fitness vs body building of when and where to stop before one goes overboard.
Calvin
I must admit I've being thinking I must mod the car to increase the performance of my se to bring it up to more modern esprits. Mine is a standard SE (as far as I know) with the only odd thing being the engine code is US.
I been driving around thinking this is quick but how much much quicker are the later models? well the answer is not a lot, if any.
I had a chance to compare my car with some V8 350's, SE's and GT and their performance was only very slighty better over a mixture of all types of roads. In fact afterwards the V8 drivers were asking what I had in my SE as it was so damn fast, they were very surprised when I said it was stock! at one point I was even out dragging a V8 SE (02 model).
Bearing in mind the above I've decided just to do some safety mods (brakes etc)for the moment.
Rgds
Dictys
I been driving around thinking this is quick but how much much quicker are the later models? well the answer is not a lot, if any.
I had a chance to compare my car with some V8 350's, SE's and GT and their performance was only very slighty better over a mixture of all types of roads. In fact afterwards the V8 drivers were asking what I had in my SE as it was so damn fast, they were very surprised when I said it was stock! at one point I was even out dragging a V8 SE (02 model).
Bearing in mind the above I've decided just to do some safety mods (brakes etc)for the moment.
Rgds
Dictys
Dictys,
You have an 89. It is a non ABS car. If you set up the car correctly you can out brake the ABS cars on road surfaces that trigger the ABS on later cars.
The difference to stock later model Esprit's are not that much. .5 sec on a 0-60. plus you have a lighter car. Jim's G car is also very good. Both Jim and I have had our suspension setting modified and is set with the driver in car with no passenger. Both of us had better not gain too much weight as we grow older or we will have to reset it.
But getting back to the subject. At those times it is more of who drops the hammer 1st, the driver reaction and skill. In older cars where the difference is more than a sec is where they need the extra power. They have even smaller wheels than us in their stock form.
The SE does do well against the later cars, more so if it has been chipped (easy mod) and if you are a better driver so much the better. I have yet to see the down side. I have the stock SE clutch and I suppose it will wear quicker than a stock SE chip car as the S4s clutch is quite a bit better to handle the extra HP. I have only run against the V8 on a track once and while I was unable to pass them they did not shake me either. I do not count passing cars that had taken an off road surface excursion.
You have a fine car. Have you ever driven an older car before? There is quite a bit of difference, one must be a smoother driver to keep up in them. As the cars get newer they can afford to be a bit more sloppy, even SE drivers must drive efficently and aggesive to keep up or get better times against the S4s/V8's.
Calvin
You have an 89. It is a non ABS car. If you set up the car correctly you can out brake the ABS cars on road surfaces that trigger the ABS on later cars.
The difference to stock later model Esprit's are not that much. .5 sec on a 0-60. plus you have a lighter car. Jim's G car is also very good. Both Jim and I have had our suspension setting modified and is set with the driver in car with no passenger. Both of us had better not gain too much weight as we grow older or we will have to reset it.
But getting back to the subject. At those times it is more of who drops the hammer 1st, the driver reaction and skill. In older cars where the difference is more than a sec is where they need the extra power. They have even smaller wheels than us in their stock form.
The SE does do well against the later cars, more so if it has been chipped (easy mod) and if you are a better driver so much the better. I have yet to see the down side. I have the stock SE clutch and I suppose it will wear quicker than a stock SE chip car as the S4s clutch is quite a bit better to handle the extra HP. I have only run against the V8 on a track once and while I was unable to pass them they did not shake me either. I do not count passing cars that had taken an off road surface excursion.
You have a fine car. Have you ever driven an older car before? There is quite a bit of difference, one must be a smoother driver to keep up in them. As the cars get newer they can afford to be a bit more sloppy, even SE drivers must drive efficently and aggesive to keep up or get better times against the S4s/V8's.
Calvin
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