Armistice - the other side
Discussion
not a great lot, would seem to be the case
there are memorials, and there are wreaths laid on them occasionally - usually during the 'schutzenfest' in my area
funnily enough, today, 11th of the 11th, at 11.11am is officially the start of carnival season (but the actual carnival in in spring time, same as mardi gras etc) - I don't know if that had any bearing on the timing of the armistice
just read up on it a bit:
Volkstrauertag is the national day, next weekend, for all victims of war
very low key though
there are memorials, and there are wreaths laid on them occasionally - usually during the 'schutzenfest' in my area
funnily enough, today, 11th of the 11th, at 11.11am is officially the start of carnival season (but the actual carnival in in spring time, same as mardi gras etc) - I don't know if that had any bearing on the timing of the armistice
just read up on it a bit:
Volkstrauertag is the national day, next weekend, for all victims of war
very low key though
Edited by hugoagogo on Tuesday 11th November 11:10
I do recall working with some German colleagues around this time of year, and they were interested in the poppies that many people in the London office were wearing. When I explained what they were about, they didn't seem to have anything similar in Germany.
I was discussing this with my wife the other night - the German soldiers went to war for a cause they believed in (certainly at the start of the war, as I understand it). The navy, particularly the U-boat crews, displayed some extreme bravery in their cause. They deserve remembrance just as much as the allied "victors", in my very humble opinion.
I think that is the special appeal of the Armistice commemoration - it does not, or at least should not, glorify war or jingoism. It exists to remind us, as (I think) Siegfried Sassoon said, that war is the place where "youth and beauty go to die".
Lest we forget - on both sides.
I was discussing this with my wife the other night - the German soldiers went to war for a cause they believed in (certainly at the start of the war, as I understand it). The navy, particularly the U-boat crews, displayed some extreme bravery in their cause. They deserve remembrance just as much as the allied "victors", in my very humble opinion.
I think that is the special appeal of the Armistice commemoration - it does not, or at least should not, glorify war or jingoism. It exists to remind us, as (I think) Siegfried Sassoon said, that war is the place where "youth and beauty go to die".
Lest we forget - on both sides.
I recently visited the German WW2 cemetery at La Cambe in Normandy.
It's very dark and unobtrusive in comparison to the allied cemeteries which appear to be bright and colourful.
It was very sobering to walk around and realise there were in the region of 21,000 germans lads....it's almost as if they are ashamed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Cambe_German_war_c...
It's very dark and unobtrusive in comparison to the allied cemeteries which appear to be bright and colourful.
It was very sobering to walk around and realise there were in the region of 21,000 germans lads....it's almost as if they are ashamed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Cambe_German_war_c...
Edited by Cara Van Man on Tuesday 11th November 11:16
It is known as Volkstrauertag, as mentioned above, on the 16th November, (or the neareast Sunday, I think).
It was hijacked by the N@zis, so remains low-key.
By coincidence, Sunday 9th Nov, was a day commemerating the victims of Krystalnacht, a pogrom against the jewish community/jewish owned businesses in 1938. Names of the victims were read out, at various times and locations (at least, in Munich). I attended one near me, at the site of one of the first attacks.
The focus here is more of attonement for the crimes they carried out, rather than rememberance of the military victims.
It was hijacked by the N@zis, so remains low-key.
By coincidence, Sunday 9th Nov, was a day commemerating the victims of Krystalnacht, a pogrom against the jewish community/jewish owned businesses in 1938. Names of the victims were read out, at various times and locations (at least, in Munich). I attended one near me, at the site of one of the first attacks.
The focus here is more of attonement for the crimes they carried out, rather than rememberance of the military victims.
Simpo Two said:
how do the Germans remember their war dead? I presume there are still some WW1 veterans,
There are no remaining German or Austrian WWI veterans alive. The last one died in January.News said:
The last surviving German army veteran of World War I is reported to have died in Hanover, aged 107. No official confirmation was available nor is it ever likely to be. Germany keeps no official records on its veterans from the two world wars.
Dr. Erich Kästner, who was born on March 10, 1900, died on January 1, 2008, according to an announcement posted by his family in the Hannoversche Allgemeine newspaper.
Kästner was the German Imperial Army's last known veteran of the war. He joined up in July 1918, four months before the end of the war, and served on the Western Front. Only one other World War I veteran is believed to be living in Germany -- Franz Künstler, born in July 1900, who served in the Austro-Hungarian empire's army.
Kästner's family could not be reached and the German Defense Ministry in Berlin said it was unable to provide any information on Kästner. The death notice says he was a retired judge and had earned the Lower Saxony Cross of Merit.
The German army's Military Research Institute, which studies German military history of the 20th century, was also unable to provide information.
"In Germany such an event doesn't have the same kind of significance as it does in other countries," Bernhard Chiari, a spokesman for the institute, told SPIEGEL ONLINE.
The death on Sunday of one France's last two surviving World War I veterans, Louis de Cazenave, made national and international news. De Cazenave, who took part in the Battle of the Somme, died aged 110 at his home in Brioude in central France, where he was buried on Tuesday.
"His death is an occasion for all of us to think of the 1.4 million French who sacrificed their lives during this conflict, for the 4.5 million wounded, for the 8.5 million mobilized," President Nicolas Sarkozy said in a statement.
The stigma of war crimes, defeat and destruction prevents Germany from feting its veterans of World War II. The fighters of World War I have similarly been erased from the national memory. Chiari said Germany's memory of World War I was tainted by the crimes of World War II.
"Any form of commemoration of military events is seen as problematic here," he said. "Our veterans only take part in public ceremonies when they are invited abroad to join commemorative events with veterans from other countries. World War I is seen as part of a historical line that led to World War II. You can't equate the two but there is much debate about it."
The Federation of German Soldiers' Associations, which represents the interests of veterans, said it was unable to provide information on Kästner. "The Hanover veterans' association dissolved itself a few years ago and we keep no central records," a spokeswoman told SPIEGEL ONLINE.
An estimated two million German soldiers died in World War I and 4.2 million were wounded. Over one million soldiers from the allied Austro-Hungarian Empire were killed, with 3.6 million wounded.
Dr. Erich Kästner, who was born on March 10, 1900, died on January 1, 2008, according to an announcement posted by his family in the Hannoversche Allgemeine newspaper.
Kästner was the German Imperial Army's last known veteran of the war. He joined up in July 1918, four months before the end of the war, and served on the Western Front. Only one other World War I veteran is believed to be living in Germany -- Franz Künstler, born in July 1900, who served in the Austro-Hungarian empire's army.
Kästner's family could not be reached and the German Defense Ministry in Berlin said it was unable to provide any information on Kästner. The death notice says he was a retired judge and had earned the Lower Saxony Cross of Merit.
The German army's Military Research Institute, which studies German military history of the 20th century, was also unable to provide information.
"In Germany such an event doesn't have the same kind of significance as it does in other countries," Bernhard Chiari, a spokesman for the institute, told SPIEGEL ONLINE.
The death on Sunday of one France's last two surviving World War I veterans, Louis de Cazenave, made national and international news. De Cazenave, who took part in the Battle of the Somme, died aged 110 at his home in Brioude in central France, where he was buried on Tuesday.
"His death is an occasion for all of us to think of the 1.4 million French who sacrificed their lives during this conflict, for the 4.5 million wounded, for the 8.5 million mobilized," President Nicolas Sarkozy said in a statement.
The stigma of war crimes, defeat and destruction prevents Germany from feting its veterans of World War II. The fighters of World War I have similarly been erased from the national memory. Chiari said Germany's memory of World War I was tainted by the crimes of World War II.
"Any form of commemoration of military events is seen as problematic here," he said. "Our veterans only take part in public ceremonies when they are invited abroad to join commemorative events with veterans from other countries. World War I is seen as part of a historical line that led to World War II. You can't equate the two but there is much debate about it."
The Federation of German Soldiers' Associations, which represents the interests of veterans, said it was unable to provide information on Kästner. "The Hanover veterans' association dissolved itself a few years ago and we keep no central records," a spokeswoman told SPIEGEL ONLINE.
An estimated two million German soldiers died in World War I and 4.2 million were wounded. Over one million soldiers from the allied Austro-Hungarian Empire were killed, with 3.6 million wounded.
That's interesting, CVM. I've noticed very similar distinctions in Flanders - the CWGC cemeteries are rather lovely places (even those crammed in next to main roads!) in that they're open, green, and somehow serene even when full of schoolkids... They're usually planted with flowers between and around the individual burials, and are always lovingly maintained.
By contrast, the big German cemetery at Langemarck is wooded and dark, a much more sombre affair. It contains a large number of individual graves (10,000-ish) plus a mass grave containing another 25,000 soldiers whose names (where known) are engraved on massive granite tablets around its edge. The cemetery also contains a rather haunting sculpture which stands on the boundary - so it's silhouetted against the open fields beyond.
Personally I always make a point of remembering the people my Grandpa (a gunner) referred to as "those other poor buggers" - as others have said, victory in the world wars doesn't mean the allies should have a monopoly on remembrance.
By contrast, the big German cemetery at Langemarck is wooded and dark, a much more sombre affair. It contains a large number of individual graves (10,000-ish) plus a mass grave containing another 25,000 soldiers whose names (where known) are engraved on massive granite tablets around its edge. The cemetery also contains a rather haunting sculpture which stands on the boundary - so it's silhouetted against the open fields beyond.
Personally I always make a point of remembering the people my Grandpa (a gunner) referred to as "those other poor buggers" - as others have said, victory in the world wars doesn't mean the allies should have a monopoly on remembrance.
BigLepton said:
hugoagogo said:
also, there are no surviving ww1 veterans from Germany, the last one died in January
And all the surviving WW2 German veterans 'lost their papers' in 1945 so no-one knows who to remember. . . . . . . Edited by hugoagogo on Tuesday 11th November 11:15
thousands of german soldiers were taken to work camps in the soviet union after the war, many only came back in the 50s
many didn't come back at all of course
Quaint said:
That's interesting, CVM. I've noticed very similar distinctions in Flanders - the CWGC cemeteries are rather lovely places (even those crammed in next to main roads!) in that they're open, green, and somehow serene even when full of schoolkids... They're usually planted with flowers between and around the individual burials, and are always lovingly maintained.
By contrast, the big German cemetery at Langemarck is wooded and dark, a much more sombre affair. It contains a large number of individual graves (10,000-ish) plus a mass grave containing another 25,000 soldiers whose names (where known) are engraved on massive granite tablets around its edge. The cemetery also contains a rather haunting sculpture which stands on the boundary - so it's silhouetted against the open fields beyond.
Personally I always make a point of remembering the people my Grandpa (a gunner) referred to as "those other poor buggers" - as others have said, victory in the world wars doesn't mean the allies should have a monopoly on remembrance.
I went to the german cemetery in the Netherlands, very obscure and out of the way, near Venlo just near the borderBy contrast, the big German cemetery at Langemarck is wooded and dark, a much more sombre affair. It contains a large number of individual graves (10,000-ish) plus a mass grave containing another 25,000 soldiers whose names (where known) are engraved on massive granite tablets around its edge. The cemetery also contains a rather haunting sculpture which stands on the boundary - so it's silhouetted against the open fields beyond.
Personally I always make a point of remembering the people my Grandpa (a gunner) referred to as "those other poor buggers" - as others have said, victory in the world wars doesn't mean the allies should have a monopoly on remembrance.
the dutch relocated all german graves after the war in to this one big cemetery, it is quite nice, just seems a bit hidden away
Quaint said:
That's interesting, CVM. I've noticed very similar distinctions in Flanders - the CWGC cemeteries are rather lovely places (even those crammed in next to main roads!) in that they're open, green, and somehow serene even when full of schoolkids... They're usually planted with flowers between and around the individual burials, and are always lovingly maintained.
By contrast, the big German cemetery at Langemarck is wooded and dark, a much more sombre affair. It contains a large number of individual graves (10,000-ish) plus a mass grave containing another 25,000 soldiers whose names (where known) are engraved on massive granite tablets around its edge. The cemetery also contains a rather haunting sculpture which stands on the boundary - so it's silhouetted against the open fields beyond.
Personally I always make a point of remembering the people my Grandpa (a gunner) referred to as "those other poor buggers" - as others have said, victory in the world wars doesn't mean the allies should have a monopoly on remembrance.
The one at La Cambe is off the main road in Normandy, but hidden behind trees, you'd almost not notice it was there if it wasn't for a sign post. I felt it was only right to visit after going to all the allied places. the average age of the German soldiers appeared to be less than our soldiers. Lots of 16/17 year olds.By contrast, the big German cemetery at Langemarck is wooded and dark, a much more sombre affair. It contains a large number of individual graves (10,000-ish) plus a mass grave containing another 25,000 soldiers whose names (where known) are engraved on massive granite tablets around its edge. The cemetery also contains a rather haunting sculpture which stands on the boundary - so it's silhouetted against the open fields beyond.
Personally I always make a point of remembering the people my Grandpa (a gunner) referred to as "those other poor buggers" - as others have said, victory in the world wars doesn't mean the allies should have a monopoly on remembrance.
ETA: All the stone work is black and very Germanic (as you'd expect I 'spose) as opposed to the Allied ones which are all marble and light coloured stone, open and very well sign posted.
Edited by Cara Van Man on Tuesday 11th November 11:35
having read into the history of the world wars from both sides i have long held sympathy for all those affected by its devastation, soldier and civilian, regardless of nationality.
i was heartened to see 2 tv programmes last night touched on this - ian hislop's account of a solider turned conscientious objector in the aftermath of the battle for messines, and the one of stalin recounting the 22,000 polish officers executed before they were even at war.
i posted this elsewhere today, but i like this image. aussie soldiers helping a wounded german at paschendale.
i was heartened to see 2 tv programmes last night touched on this - ian hislop's account of a solider turned conscientious objector in the aftermath of the battle for messines, and the one of stalin recounting the 22,000 polish officers executed before they were even at war.
i posted this elsewhere today, but i like this image. aussie soldiers helping a wounded german at paschendale.
It is interesting how other countries commemorate WW1. I have just been listening to Pat Kenny's show on Irish radio this morning and they have devoted over two hours to discussing Ireland and WW1. It was very interesting - particularly how they were explaining that nearly all commemoration of the Armistice stopped completely when the troubles blew up in the 1970s and it is only now that some large commemorative events are being held again.
Over 35,000 Irishmen died in WW1 and there is a huge memorial gardens to the fallen at Islandbridge in Dublin. I didn't even know it existed until last year - which just shows how effectively Irish history and culture in the Republic had effectively buried the folk memory of these traumatic events. Next time I'm over there I am definitely paying the site a visit.
Over 35,000 Irishmen died in WW1 and there is a huge memorial gardens to the fallen at Islandbridge in Dublin. I didn't even know it existed until last year - which just shows how effectively Irish history and culture in the Republic had effectively buried the folk memory of these traumatic events. Next time I'm over there I am definitely paying the site a visit.
hugoagogo said:
BigLepton said:
hugoagogo said:
also, there are no surviving ww1 veterans from Germany, the last one died in January
And all the surviving WW2 German veterans 'lost their papers' in 1945 so no-one knows who to remember. . . . . . . Edited by hugoagogo on Tuesday 11th November 11:15
thousands of german soldiers were taken to work camps in the soviet union after the war, many only came back in the 50s
many didn't come back at all of course
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