Discussion
I saw a yellow example this morning on A40 queue into London, and I must say that it looked really good. Its almost like with the passage of time its now matured into a really desirable looking car, didnt even mind those Mondeo rear lights.
How do you guys feel about the model now or is it still a no-no to you hard core Caterham types?
How do you guys feel about the model now or is it still a no-no to you hard core Caterham types?
I know a couple of owners and I like the 21. There are niggles with it but overall it's a nice rare car.
Oodles of info here: www.caterham21.com
Oodles of info here: www.caterham21.com
Edited by ewenm on Wednesday 12th November 18:27
I quite like them . . . They hold their value well and as long as you make sure you get one without a rotten chassis (they are a barsteward to rebuild) I reckon they're a good prospect.
They have nice interiors, good luggage space, and the roof is pretty simple to put up. They're also more secure than a 7.
Problems include being just as cramped as a 7 and the side windows are a pain to take off. You don't want to damage one either as the panels can't be simply replaced. And you don't want to smash your windscreen as you won't get another one (though I think someone is getting some made to be fair).
By normal car standards they're pretty quick as they're fairly light, plus they handle well.
People always compare them to normal 7s and say they are heavier, slower, etc. etc. . . .which is true. But think of them as 'normal' cars and compare them with an MX5 or an Elise and it's another matter.
They have nice interiors, good luggage space, and the roof is pretty simple to put up. They're also more secure than a 7.
Problems include being just as cramped as a 7 and the side windows are a pain to take off. You don't want to damage one either as the panels can't be simply replaced. And you don't want to smash your windscreen as you won't get another one (though I think someone is getting some made to be fair).
By normal car standards they're pretty quick as they're fairly light, plus they handle well.
People always compare them to normal 7s and say they are heavier, slower, etc. etc. . . .which is true. But think of them as 'normal' cars and compare them with an MX5 or an Elise and it's another matter.
It was a great car. I went round snetterton in one some time ago and it was very capable on track. No surprise there. Remember the chrome covered prototype? That looked amazing.
The car would unquestionably have had more success had the Lotus Elise not just come out. To be fair the Elise deserved all its great success, it remains a brilliant and very important car for lotus, and the company may not have survived without it. However the 21 didn't deserve it's dramatic failure either.
I did notice that the dash design from the 21 did make it's way back into production in the CSR, so part of it at least lives on!
The car would unquestionably have had more success had the Lotus Elise not just come out. To be fair the Elise deserved all its great success, it remains a brilliant and very important car for lotus, and the company may not have survived without it. However the 21 didn't deserve it's dramatic failure either.
I did notice that the dash design from the 21 did make it's way back into production in the CSR, so part of it at least lives on!
The original was actually made from unpainted aluminium.
They are a great touring car. We used to tour all over in a Se7en, which was possible but a 21 is so much easier to tour in, with a large boot and easy-up roof. Not only that but high speed motorway cruising is a doddle thanks to the aerodynamics.
Dave P's website is the bible on all things 21-related.
They are a great touring car. We used to tour all over in a Se7en, which was possible but a 21 is so much easier to tour in, with a large boot and easy-up roof. Not only that but high speed motorway cruising is a doddle thanks to the aerodynamics.
Dave P's website is the bible on all things 21-related.
OJ said:
Didn't Dave P manage to get the original moulds back from somewhere in Scandanavia?
P.S. Hello Adam!
Morning OJP.S. Hello Adam!
There are several sets of moulds including the ones from the ally car and various later production moulds.
It's fascinating what Mr P (Caterham21.com) has managed to save from skips as far as the 21 goes . . . I think he has various moulds and patterns stashed in friendly farmers barns and such. He also knows where you can get pretty much anything for the car and he knows what donor vehicles parts were originally nicked off - much of this information had been forgotten/lost by Caterham themselves as the original people behind the 21 have moved on.
The important thing to bear in mind for potential buyers is that in spite of the fact Caterham seem to have lost interest in the 21 and no longer supply many parts, the parts are still available - you just need to know who to talk to.
It's a shame isn't it? You'd think after that all development that it wouldn't have cost more than it would earn to have kept the order books open and keep them tricking through!
Makes you wonder if Dave P could take a hammer to the moulds, supply a bit of an update to the look and flog them. Camberley Cars anyone?
Makes you wonder if Dave P could take a hammer to the moulds, supply a bit of an update to the look and flog them. Camberley Cars anyone?
you almost have to wonder if the 21's rich, albeit limited history in production, could be the forbearer of what the new Caterham project will yield?I'm surprised there haven't been a few owners on this thread but I'll start it off.
It's a great car if you see it for what it is.
It isn't an MGF or an SLK. These are far more civilised. The brochures have the cars parked outside big country house hotels which suggests a greater degree of civility than it has.
Equally it isn't a seven as it is a little softer and slower but it's closer to this than the group above.
It makes a good Gt car if you like life on the sports side of GT. But it doesn't really like motorways nay more than a seven does, but it is comfortable and has a decent boot.
There was a good piece in last months classic car with a Renault Sport Spider, an Elise and a VX220. All similar cars yet quite different in some aspects.
There are some design flaws - the windows don't open and getting in with the roof up takes a little practice!
I used mine for 4 years as an only car and it was fine. Now it gets used as daily transport in the summer which works well.
It looks great and goes well. I've had it 8 years and I can't see me getting rid of it.
It's a great car if you see it for what it is.
It isn't an MGF or an SLK. These are far more civilised. The brochures have the cars parked outside big country house hotels which suggests a greater degree of civility than it has.
Equally it isn't a seven as it is a little softer and slower but it's closer to this than the group above.
It makes a good Gt car if you like life on the sports side of GT. But it doesn't really like motorways nay more than a seven does, but it is comfortable and has a decent boot.
There was a good piece in last months classic car with a Renault Sport Spider, an Elise and a VX220. All similar cars yet quite different in some aspects.
There are some design flaws - the windows don't open and getting in with the roof up takes a little practice!
I used mine for 4 years as an only car and it was fine. Now it gets used as daily transport in the summer which works well.
It looks great and goes well. I've had it 8 years and I can't see me getting rid of it.
Edited by DKL on Tuesday 18th November 22:26
David, I can't remember if yours is a 5 or 6 speed?
I'm not a 21 owner, but I count myself as chief mechanic for one (the girlfriends) and I agree with David, it's far more GT than sportscar, especially in standard form. The work Dave21P has done on BPB has made it far more sporting and akin to a 7 in terms of performance, but that's why I have a 7 in the garage...best of both worlds!
Not long after K got the 21, we took it to the Alps for 2 weeks touring, the boot is massive, and we found as well as being fun in the mountains that on the autoroute (taking the quickest way down there and back) that it was quite happy to cruise at 120mph (ish...officer), K's is a 5 speeder that suits the GT role better (IMHO) than the 6.
I'm not a 21 owner, but I count myself as chief mechanic for one (the girlfriends) and I agree with David, it's far more GT than sportscar, especially in standard form. The work Dave21P has done on BPB has made it far more sporting and akin to a 7 in terms of performance, but that's why I have a 7 in the garage...best of both worlds!
Not long after K got the 21, we took it to the Alps for 2 weeks touring, the boot is massive, and we found as well as being fun in the mountains that on the autoroute (taking the quickest way down there and back) that it was quite happy to cruise at 120mph (ish...officer), K's is a 5 speeder that suits the GT role better (IMHO) than the 6.
I've toured alongside 3 of them, all special in their own way. One had a normal 1600 engine originally which was replaced with a Duratec (I still haven't actually seen it in the flesh since the conversion but it's reputed to be quite fearsome), a VHPD which was a great engine for that car, and the only one converted to run a 240bhp Vx engine. That one was extremely fast, although it speed may have had something to do with its driver (Vinnie).
I like that people are considering them for long-term ownership and investing in alternative engines. They are great cars and worthy of more power. The 6-speed gearbox would be excellent in one if you replace the diff for a ~3.3 ratio. It'd give you a great spread, but you'd need a powerful engine to pull max revs in top gear.
I like that people are considering them for long-term ownership and investing in alternative engines. They are great cars and worthy of more power. The 6-speed gearbox would be excellent in one if you replace the diff for a ~3.3 ratio. It'd give you a great spread, but you'd need a powerful engine to pull max revs in top gear.
The 21 is a fantastic car, I have one with a VVC engine which suit its GT and sport car capabilities, lown down torque and power higher up in the rev range.
Before buying my 21, I had a look at the Elise and the VX220 which at the time where its closest competitor.
I really didn't like them, and did not feel comfortable in them.
On the other hand, I felt immediately comfortable in the 21. It took me a few years to find my 21 and I have absolutely no regrets.
There is nothing in the market which could replace it for it mix of sports car, practicability, exclusivity and prettiness.
The only problem I have is that I don't use it enough which I hope will change in spring and summer next year, as I have some modification I have been planing for it for a few years now.
Jack
Before buying my 21, I had a look at the Elise and the VX220 which at the time where its closest competitor.
I really didn't like them, and did not feel comfortable in them.
On the other hand, I felt immediately comfortable in the 21. It took me a few years to find my 21 and I have absolutely no regrets.
There is nothing in the market which could replace it for it mix of sports car, practicability, exclusivity and prettiness.
The only problem I have is that I don't use it enough which I hope will change in spring and summer next year, as I have some modification I have been planing for it for a few years now.
Jack
Powderpuff said:
Hi Nigel, hope you're keeping well 
I'm out of work, so a bit frustrated at the mo. There's just nothing worth applying for most of the time, then when something comes along, everyone and his dog applies for it. I'm convinced that most of my applications fall on deaf ears simply because I'm not in the first 10 of CVs piled on someone's desk.Powderpuff said:
You forgot to mention that the VHPD car did 'fly' quite well too 
Considering what it went through, it survived well, and was driving again only a few days later.We "rescued" the Vx 21 too, on a tour of the Scottish borders. Had to remove the de Dion, drill out a broken bolt, re-tap the thread then reassemble. IIRC that was accomplished in a couple of hours, albeit by several people who had recently rebuilt something "Se7eny" so the procedure was still quite fresh.
It was the 21 GTO.
see http://lotus7club.co.uk/c21gto.htm
No idea how many they made, how it got on or where they ended up (Japan probably???)
I'm sure Dave21P would have all the info.
SS
see http://lotus7club.co.uk/c21gto.htm
No idea how many they made, how it got on or where they ended up (Japan probably???)
I'm sure Dave21P would have all the info.
SS
Some of the answers from another owner:-
A yellow 21 on the M4 into London is likely to be Phlea's car (but might be John B's). You can recognise the difference by the wheels: Phela has the original 16" 5 spoke "HPC" type wheels in a silver colour. The other most frequently spotted 21 (John's) has the newer Caterham 15" 10 spoke antracite-coloured wheels.
Epithemus: agree about the interior, lugage and space. Not sure why they might be more secure - any ragtop is pretty insecure.
Re: The windscreens: It was the moulds for this part which were returned from Finland after Dave21Pearson's negotiations. AFAIK these are now with Pilkington UK. They can be made but only as part of a small batch, so will be expensive to get.
All the other moulds are in Caterham's care; after all it is their design. The price they put on the design rights has scared off those who asked about buying the car design, so far. David has just checked up on things at various times to ensure that people remember what is what, where it is and what it is for.
Caterham have some of the parts, for others Darren, who looks after pre 2001 car parts at Caterham will help with OEM part numbers. It may be very low on Caterham's priority list, but they have not lost contact with the 21 and the owners.
OJ: I think Caterham were sensible to concentrate on products which make them money, any business would be sensible to stop making a product with such tiny demand. They learnt a lot from developing the 21, good things and bad ones too.
Mars:Certainly a 1600 is a bit lacking in power and torque for a 700kg car, but it probably can get 500 miles on a tankful of fuel! The VHPD does give it a much better performance, but even then, the horsepower expolsion of the past 8 to 10 years has left a lot of respectable cars looking under-powered. When Paul Jacobs built the VX engined car, he was anticipating that trend (it was VX from the start).
A yellow 21 on the M4 into London is likely to be Phlea's car (but might be John B's). You can recognise the difference by the wheels: Phela has the original 16" 5 spoke "HPC" type wheels in a silver colour. The other most frequently spotted 21 (John's) has the newer Caterham 15" 10 spoke antracite-coloured wheels.
Epithemus: agree about the interior, lugage and space. Not sure why they might be more secure - any ragtop is pretty insecure.
Re: The windscreens: It was the moulds for this part which were returned from Finland after Dave21Pearson's negotiations. AFAIK these are now with Pilkington UK. They can be made but only as part of a small batch, so will be expensive to get.
All the other moulds are in Caterham's care; after all it is their design. The price they put on the design rights has scared off those who asked about buying the car design, so far. David has just checked up on things at various times to ensure that people remember what is what, where it is and what it is for.
Caterham have some of the parts, for others Darren, who looks after pre 2001 car parts at Caterham will help with OEM part numbers. It may be very low on Caterham's priority list, but they have not lost contact with the 21 and the owners.
OJ: I think Caterham were sensible to concentrate on products which make them money, any business would be sensible to stop making a product with such tiny demand. They learnt a lot from developing the 21, good things and bad ones too.
Mars:Certainly a 1600 is a bit lacking in power and torque for a 700kg car, but it probably can get 500 miles on a tankful of fuel! The VHPD does give it a much better performance, but even then, the horsepower expolsion of the past 8 to 10 years has left a lot of respectable cars looking under-powered. When Paul Jacobs built the VX engined car, he was anticipating that trend (it was VX from the start).
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