Non pursuit Policy
Discussion
Found out that one or two Police Force areas are still persevering with a Non Pursuit Policy.
Personally i believe that this is a load of old nonsense and really should be addressed by the powers that be.
In the very near future a report will be published detailing new 'guidelines' re pursuits informing us about what can and what cant be done.
I can understand the reasoning behind this which the obvious one is bad press for the Police. No matter how a pursuit starts, if it ends in a crash of any description then the Police must be to blame in some way shape or form.
I always feel extremely sad whenever i read or are involved in pursuits which results in injuries to innocent members of the public but when a person who fails to stop for Police crashes and injures or kills himself then i really dont have any sympathy whatsoever.
People fail to stop for a variety of reasons ranging from No Tax through to Drink Drive and ultimately, Murder.
Police, sadly, dont always know the reason until the pursuit has ended.
What do you think when you see/hear of a pursuit that has ended with the offending driver injured?
Personally i believe that this is a load of old nonsense and really should be addressed by the powers that be.
In the very near future a report will be published detailing new 'guidelines' re pursuits informing us about what can and what cant be done.
I can understand the reasoning behind this which the obvious one is bad press for the Police. No matter how a pursuit starts, if it ends in a crash of any description then the Police must be to blame in some way shape or form.
I always feel extremely sad whenever i read or are involved in pursuits which results in injuries to innocent members of the public but when a person who fails to stop for Police crashes and injures or kills himself then i really dont have any sympathy whatsoever.
People fail to stop for a variety of reasons ranging from No Tax through to Drink Drive and ultimately, Murder.
Police, sadly, dont always know the reason until the pursuit has ended.
What do you think when you see/hear of a pursuit that has ended with the offending driver injured?
tonyrec said:
What do you think when you see/hear of a pursuit that has ended with the offending driver injured?
Stupid twat should have pulled over rather than being a burden on the NHS.
BTW in what areas is there a potential problem of irresponsible drivers fixing false plates to their cars, going off hooning about without the fear of being chased by the BiB?
DAZ
tonyrec said:
What do you think when you see/hear of a pursuit that has ended with the offending driver injured?
As long as it was the offending driver, no sympathy (for the offending driver) whatsoever.
The real problem, as you have already said, is when innocent{*} members of the public are injured / killed. That possibility inevitably brings 'political' concerns to those who have to make the overall policy decisions.
{*} There was a particularly nonsensical verdict in a coroner's court in Merseyside (it didn't involve real traffic police, Mersey Tunnel Police IIRC).
In that case, the Police were held to be at fault becuse the scum ran into a road block, placed by the police, and one? was killed. The scum apparently couldn't see the road block until they were within the braking distance; hence (I think, the blame). The fact that the scum were doing several times the speed limit didn't seem to count. And, of course, it begs the question, if they hadn't been stopped, how long till they ran into an innocent person? Sometimes the police just can't win.
Not really relevent to your original point, but it just illustrates the 'political' dimension to operational policy decision making.
Much of the blame lies with the press. In my Force a patrol car followed a Land Rover Disco which had failed to stop, the belief being Drink Drive. The driver abandoned the pursuit due to the manner of driving, a minute or two later the Landy turned over, killing the passenger.
Prizes for guessing what the headline was in the local paper. Did the copy include, mention or even allude to the fact that the pursuit had been abandoned? Did the person in charge of the Force's driving school get told off? Was he obliged to come up with an idea for improving the standard of pursuit instruction?
Answers on a postcard, please.
I called off a number of pursuits when I was in the control room. A baby in a carrycot on the rear seat of a stolen MGB GT, a stolen bus being driven by a right scroat, when visability was 100m and a Volvo T5 wanted to go after an E-type Jag. A Traffic PC abandoned a pursuit due to the manner of driving and the driver then piled it into a roundabout.
But what do you do when armed gunmen drive the wrong way along the M23?
I always looked for a reason to allow a pursuit to continue and if it wasn't a strong enough then it was called off. There was only one instance when there was an argument from the Traffic officer.
In my experience all traffic officers act responsibly at the beginning of a pursuit and if they say it's safe then it's safe. Once it goes on for a few minutes then decisions can become a bit cloudy and that's the time you have to read between the lines. It's not a fault of the officer, it is a natural response to the adrenalin. That's when the senior officer in the control room will call it off.
Derek
Prizes for guessing what the headline was in the local paper. Did the copy include, mention or even allude to the fact that the pursuit had been abandoned? Did the person in charge of the Force's driving school get told off? Was he obliged to come up with an idea for improving the standard of pursuit instruction?
Answers on a postcard, please.
I called off a number of pursuits when I was in the control room. A baby in a carrycot on the rear seat of a stolen MGB GT, a stolen bus being driven by a right scroat, when visability was 100m and a Volvo T5 wanted to go after an E-type Jag. A Traffic PC abandoned a pursuit due to the manner of driving and the driver then piled it into a roundabout.
But what do you do when armed gunmen drive the wrong way along the M23?
I always looked for a reason to allow a pursuit to continue and if it wasn't a strong enough then it was called off. There was only one instance when there was an argument from the Traffic officer.
In my experience all traffic officers act responsibly at the beginning of a pursuit and if they say it's safe then it's safe. Once it goes on for a few minutes then decisions can become a bit cloudy and that's the time you have to read between the lines. It's not a fault of the officer, it is a natural response to the adrenalin. That's when the senior officer in the control room will call it off.
Derek
That was a very interesting reply, Derek, and very good to hear.
As far as Tony's question goes, if the offending driver is hurt or killed - Tough S
t, should have stopped. I leave it up to the controllers or police drivers concerned to decide when to continue or stop a pursuit. Safety to the general public has to be considered, but also what could happen if the offending driver does get away, e.g. armed criminals.
As far as Tony's question goes, if the offending driver is hurt or killed - Tough S
t, should have stopped. I leave it up to the controllers or police drivers concerned to decide when to continue or stop a pursuit. Safety to the general public has to be considered, but also what could happen if the offending driver does get away, e.g. armed criminals.Surely though non-pursuit doesn't mean letting them get away?
I mean. One can arrange roads to be blocked, a helicopter to fly over and so on - we see it often enough on those TV programmes.
Personally if someone is foolish enough to try and get away then if they prang - its their fault and no-one elses. If they run into innocents - its them that committed murder NOT the pursuing police officers.
Clearly if it is not possible to keep up with the offenders without risking innocents/the police drivers from the act of driving the pursuit car quickly then pursuit should definitly be ended....and a rocket launcher employed.
I mean. One can arrange roads to be blocked, a helicopter to fly over and so on - we see it often enough on those TV programmes.
Personally if someone is foolish enough to try and get away then if they prang - its their fault and no-one elses. If they run into innocents - its them that committed murder NOT the pursuing police officers.
Clearly if it is not possible to keep up with the offenders without risking innocents/the police drivers from the act of driving the pursuit car quickly then pursuit should definitly be ended....and a rocket launcher employed.
jeffreyarcher said:
the Police were held to be at fault becuse the scum ran into a road block
It reminds me of the soldiers in Northern Ireland who were prosecuted for opening fire at scrotes who drove through a road block, killing at least one of them. I've never quite grasped what armed roadblocks are for if they're not allowed to stop people at them.
As we spiral out of control towards the black hole that is the Blair-Blunkett nirvana I dread to think what the impending report will contain although, even as a layman, I have a damn good idea.
The basic problem with the none pursuit policy is simple. The offenders are given a way out. The more dangerously they drive in hazardous places such as residential areas, placing Jo Public and BiBs at extreme risk the greater the chance that they will be able to walk away scot free. And do it again and again and...
BiB like Tony and chums are trained to drive, to use their judgement and grey cells. For GODS SAKE let them do their jobs - locking up the guilty and potecting the innocent.
The basic problem with the none pursuit policy is simple. The offenders are given a way out. The more dangerously they drive in hazardous places such as residential areas, placing Jo Public and BiBs at extreme risk the greater the chance that they will be able to walk away scot free. And do it again and again and...
BiB like Tony and chums are trained to drive, to use their judgement and grey cells. For GODS SAKE let them do their jobs - locking up the guilty and potecting the innocent.
Non pursuit policy is non police policy. I was under the impression that these muppets who fail to stop tend to drive like idiots whether or not the police are following them. Sure accidents can happen but as Tony says why are they running.
Respect to the trained police drivers who put their lives on the line to stop these idiots.
Respect to the trained police drivers who put their lives on the line to stop these idiots.
Can't see how a non pursuit policy is in the publics interest.
Yes pursuits should have strict guidlines to keep risks to a minimum, nobody questions that.
But surely banning ALL pursuits just gives the wrong message to any would be scrote. It says get a car, any car will do & drive like a nutter as the police will have to let you get away as the chances of a convenient helicopter being overhead will surely be slim. If they all start thinking this the end result will surely be worse than than the situation we have at present with every petty thief zooming around at will.
Yes pursuits should have strict guidlines to keep risks to a minimum, nobody questions that.
But surely banning ALL pursuits just gives the wrong message to any would be scrote. It says get a car, any car will do & drive like a nutter as the police will have to let you get away as the chances of a convenient helicopter being overhead will surely be slim. If they all start thinking this the end result will surely be worse than than the situation we have at present with every petty thief zooming around at will.
An example of this near Long Lane a few years back.
14yr old and a 12yr old in a stolen car, copper twats the back of it they go through the central reservation and kill the occupants of an oncoming vehicle.
Its a horrifically difficult line the police have to tread. On one hand they are called ineffectual for not catching joyriders and on the other they are called idiots for placing the life of innocent motorists in danger.
A tricky position.
14yr old and a 12yr old in a stolen car, copper twats the back of it they go through the central reservation and kill the occupants of an oncoming vehicle.
Its a horrifically difficult line the police have to tread. On one hand they are called ineffectual for not catching joyriders and on the other they are called idiots for placing the life of innocent motorists in danger.
A tricky position.
My force have tried Stinger, you know that device which puntures the tyres of the target vehicle, two traffic cars, a dog van and a Volvo driver who just happened to be there, and have found it useful. We have tried moving road blocks and that's so much fun that the control room inspector gets asked for permission every ten minutes. And the helicopter, of course. Each is effective enough in its own way but they are limited.
Many people have tried to come up with rigid guidelines, the Holy Grail of the police, but have failed. All you can say is that if you put the public at risk you have got to have a pretty good reason for doing so.
Down my way a man was shot and the repercussions went on for years. But if someone is killed during a pursuit then there are just a few ripples left after a couple of months, yet the person is just as dead. I think it shows that the public are supportive of pursuits at the moment. We - the police - have just got to ensure that we keep their confidence.
I don't think that an outright ban is the right way of going. You pay us to make qualitive decisions and here are senior officers saying that we wont for whatever reason. My unevidenced belief is that they make these types of orders merely to maintain a quiet life.
I was once bollocked by a superintendent after a pursuit which left three police cars damaged (none of them, by the way, driven by my lads) and he said, "You don't know what it's like coming in of a Monday morning, not knowing what's in store."
I shut my eyes in a bit of temper and he asked if I wanted to say anything. I looked round his office, at his new desk, telephones that you didn't have to lift the receiver to answer, two computers, one with a flat screen, a nice carpet and en suite facilities. I said, "Nice office, sir."
Two of the drivers had spent the weekend wondering what was going to happen to them. Believe it or not, and you'd better, they suspended their driving permits then I had to give the shift one of my drivers as they had insufficient to cover! I hope you don't believe it 'cause if you do think that senior officers can be so stupid, you won't sleep tonight.
The main problem with pursuits is that they are so enjoyable. Much, much more exciting than track days or even racing. One night duty I chased a Cortina for about 35 mins during which time it drove at me, then skidded on a bridge, spun round and caught fire. I stopped just in time, got out of the car and fell over. I just couldn't get my legs to work! I didn't get any sleep that day and was still high the following night. It was fabulous. I never felt sharper.
Derek
Many people have tried to come up with rigid guidelines, the Holy Grail of the police, but have failed. All you can say is that if you put the public at risk you have got to have a pretty good reason for doing so.
Down my way a man was shot and the repercussions went on for years. But if someone is killed during a pursuit then there are just a few ripples left after a couple of months, yet the person is just as dead. I think it shows that the public are supportive of pursuits at the moment. We - the police - have just got to ensure that we keep their confidence.
I don't think that an outright ban is the right way of going. You pay us to make qualitive decisions and here are senior officers saying that we wont for whatever reason. My unevidenced belief is that they make these types of orders merely to maintain a quiet life.
I was once bollocked by a superintendent after a pursuit which left three police cars damaged (none of them, by the way, driven by my lads) and he said, "You don't know what it's like coming in of a Monday morning, not knowing what's in store."
I shut my eyes in a bit of temper and he asked if I wanted to say anything. I looked round his office, at his new desk, telephones that you didn't have to lift the receiver to answer, two computers, one with a flat screen, a nice carpet and en suite facilities. I said, "Nice office, sir."
Two of the drivers had spent the weekend wondering what was going to happen to them. Believe it or not, and you'd better, they suspended their driving permits then I had to give the shift one of my drivers as they had insufficient to cover! I hope you don't believe it 'cause if you do think that senior officers can be so stupid, you won't sleep tonight.
The main problem with pursuits is that they are so enjoyable. Much, much more exciting than track days or even racing. One night duty I chased a Cortina for about 35 mins during which time it drove at me, then skidded on a bridge, spun round and caught fire. I stopped just in time, got out of the car and fell over. I just couldn't get my legs to work! I didn't get any sleep that day and was still high the following night. It was fabulous. I never felt sharper.
Derek
Have not read any of the replies, so here goes.
Widely publise the fact that All police cars are fitted with very reliable surface to air scrote seeking missiles. Once a car has been signalled to stop.
STOP POLICE!
The said missile is used against suspect with the full intention of killing them.
Problem solved
Widely publise the fact that All police cars are fitted with very reliable surface to air scrote seeking missiles. Once a car has been signalled to stop.
STOP POLICE! The said missile is used against suspect with the full intention of killing them.
Problem solved
Derek Smith said:
The main problem with pursuits is that they are so enjoyable. Much, much more exciting than track days or even racing.
Glad you think so! I'm glad its your job and not mine. Oh yes, it sounds great fun hareing around the countryside after the bad guys but the sphincter clenching reality of it is definitely not for me. I salute the guys who do it - and can remain professional when doing so.
Its not bad to enjoy your work, Derek. But I'd be careful about letting on about how much - we'll all think you're a right hoon.
I think that its fair to say that a few years ago....when involved in a pursuit, every Policeman used to get those imortal words into his/her commentary, "Hes all over the road".
Now, at the risk of the pursuit being terminated by the pipe and slippers brigade, Officers are much more restraint in what they say.....
Reminds me of a Pursuit recently in the early hours of the morning where the Pursuit or chase as we like to call it on the shop floor....lol, had been going for about 20mins and the commentary was superb, (reading between the lines they were travelling at very high speed) and not a lot was being said.
The Information room operator asked the Officer to give details of the conditions (with a view to pulling the plug on itno doubt) and he replied,"the moon is out and it looks rather nice".
To put it bluntly i nearly pi55ed myself with laughter because the powers that be have brought it about themselves....lol.
It all ended safely a while later and another slag was put in the pokey.
Now, at the risk of the pursuit being terminated by the pipe and slippers brigade, Officers are much more restraint in what they say.....
Reminds me of a Pursuit recently in the early hours of the morning where the Pursuit or chase as we like to call it on the shop floor....lol, had been going for about 20mins and the commentary was superb, (reading between the lines they were travelling at very high speed) and not a lot was being said.
The Information room operator asked the Officer to give details of the conditions (with a view to pulling the plug on itno doubt) and he replied,"the moon is out and it looks rather nice".
To put it bluntly i nearly pi55ed myself with laughter because the powers that be have brought it about themselves....lol.
It all ended safely a while later and another slag was put in the pokey.
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