Team 911virgin. My thoughts & the future
Discussion
Firstly well done to Rod, Jan and Jay for beating us to the championship. In the end I think the quicker car on the night won although I think safety cars not picking up the leader and cars being let out of the pit lane at the wrong time under the safety car probably robbed the event of a nail biting finish that should have been. We didn`t dare pit under a safety car in case we got held up as has happened in the past. In the end it was quite the opposite with cars let out of the pit lane in a breathtakingly amateur fashion. As for the grid line up fiasco where half the field were held in the pit lane all I can say is wow! I suspected something like this would happen so we actually fueled our car and readied it for the race during qualifying so we could pop straight out onto the grid. A wayward bonnet nearly put paid to our plans but thankfully we made it!
When one car fails to make it to the grid on time that`s their problem, when half the field fails something has gone awry with the organisation.
Despite Steve`s official protest at Snetterton when Julian assured us that things would be sorted out we saw Jay ushered out onto the track just in front of the safety car so he could get a whole lap`s advantage and the Aston Martin nearly hit us as it was released straight into the front of the safety car chain. I`m not sure the outcome would have been different had these matters been addressed properly but I think we would have seen the Hawthorn Porsche and our own car battling on the same lap and a re-run of our last visit to Brands Hatch which saw a battle of Ben Hur proportions between Steven and Jay with Jay being the eventual winner only to have the result overturned when penalties were issued for pit stop timing infringements.
My abiding memory of the event however was not a happy one. The look of pure hatred in J.T`s eyes as Steve told him the 997 Porsche to which he had presented the first prize in class 2 was in fact a class 1 entrant will remain with me for as long as I compete in motorsport. "You can`t complain after the race" was somewhat puzzling as the timing screens clearly showed Rod & Jay as the winners followed by ourselves.
I may be more vocal than some but I hope my mutterings are for the greater good. I am not championing our particular car or seeking to gain it advantage. Everything I`ve ever discussed has been for the benefit of the championship. I remember last year for instance saying how a Joker round would be financial suicide for Britcar as teams who lucked out on their joker rounds early on gave up knowing there was nothing they could do to catch up. As an entrepreneur Britcar`s financial stability has probably been my primary interest in that if the competition is fair more people will compete and the coffers swell.
On reflection I suspect we will not be returning to Britcar next year. I find it just too hard to stand idly by and compete in races where the rules, as much as there are rules, are so poorly written, implemented and the organisation behind the event has so little understanding of the effect their decisions have to the outcome of an event. If you`re just turning up to have a blast round the track with other cars and don`t give a hoot about your relative position at the end of the race then Britcar will present little or no problem for you and you`ll enjoy your time in the championship because there are some great guys in the paddock and an impressive array of machinery. Unfortunately we bought into the whole championship thing and as such every point had a value attached to it.
This weekend for instance: I have a lot of respect for the Top Cats team. They come here to do a job and do it well. Their Mosler was the highest placed in the championship and their Marcos` have kept me honest as long as I`ve been racing in Britcar. I also believe that Warren runs a straight team. He pushes the boundaries and why not, he needs to offer his customers potential class winning seats. I also believe he has kept Britcar informed of all his car`s technical specifications. But how can an organiser not be alarmed when their Mosler, their class 1 Marcos and their class 2 Marcos all run exactly the same engine! In fairness to Warren he assures me the engine in the class 2 car is restricted from 560bhp or so down to the 360-380bhp necessary for it to compete in class 2 but were I organising Britcar I`d be very concerned that it was possibly one step too far. Certainly the car trounced it`s class peers. One lap it was 100 yards behind us, the next it had passed and was 100 yards in front. To me that isn`t class parity. As I started this paragraph by saying this isn`t a criticism of Top Cats, they have read the rule book and by all accounts worked out that by restricting a 560bhp 200bhp or so you get some great torque figures low down in the rev range but I`d be all over that car like a rash were I the organiser.
I`ve had a very quick scan of the 2009 regulations and there are some huge schoolboy fundamental errors with them. I`m not going to pick through the bones on here now but might at some later stage.
I`m going to round off by thanking, as I did on the night, James and all the people behind Britcar for this year. The final trophies are impressive and I thank you for them. I wish you the best of luck in the future. It would be easy to blame any future downturn on the financial climate but I`m not sure that is the case. When times are tight people look closely at where they spend money, are more selective and the cream rises to the top.
Final thanks must go to our fellow competitors. Some close racing, a few choice words from time to time but all sorted with a handshake, a slap on the back and a pint in the bar.
As ever keep smiling.
Henry
When one car fails to make it to the grid on time that`s their problem, when half the field fails something has gone awry with the organisation.
Despite Steve`s official protest at Snetterton when Julian assured us that things would be sorted out we saw Jay ushered out onto the track just in front of the safety car so he could get a whole lap`s advantage and the Aston Martin nearly hit us as it was released straight into the front of the safety car chain. I`m not sure the outcome would have been different had these matters been addressed properly but I think we would have seen the Hawthorn Porsche and our own car battling on the same lap and a re-run of our last visit to Brands Hatch which saw a battle of Ben Hur proportions between Steven and Jay with Jay being the eventual winner only to have the result overturned when penalties were issued for pit stop timing infringements.
My abiding memory of the event however was not a happy one. The look of pure hatred in J.T`s eyes as Steve told him the 997 Porsche to which he had presented the first prize in class 2 was in fact a class 1 entrant will remain with me for as long as I compete in motorsport. "You can`t complain after the race" was somewhat puzzling as the timing screens clearly showed Rod & Jay as the winners followed by ourselves.
I may be more vocal than some but I hope my mutterings are for the greater good. I am not championing our particular car or seeking to gain it advantage. Everything I`ve ever discussed has been for the benefit of the championship. I remember last year for instance saying how a Joker round would be financial suicide for Britcar as teams who lucked out on their joker rounds early on gave up knowing there was nothing they could do to catch up. As an entrepreneur Britcar`s financial stability has probably been my primary interest in that if the competition is fair more people will compete and the coffers swell.
On reflection I suspect we will not be returning to Britcar next year. I find it just too hard to stand idly by and compete in races where the rules, as much as there are rules, are so poorly written, implemented and the organisation behind the event has so little understanding of the effect their decisions have to the outcome of an event. If you`re just turning up to have a blast round the track with other cars and don`t give a hoot about your relative position at the end of the race then Britcar will present little or no problem for you and you`ll enjoy your time in the championship because there are some great guys in the paddock and an impressive array of machinery. Unfortunately we bought into the whole championship thing and as such every point had a value attached to it.
This weekend for instance: I have a lot of respect for the Top Cats team. They come here to do a job and do it well. Their Mosler was the highest placed in the championship and their Marcos` have kept me honest as long as I`ve been racing in Britcar. I also believe that Warren runs a straight team. He pushes the boundaries and why not, he needs to offer his customers potential class winning seats. I also believe he has kept Britcar informed of all his car`s technical specifications. But how can an organiser not be alarmed when their Mosler, their class 1 Marcos and their class 2 Marcos all run exactly the same engine! In fairness to Warren he assures me the engine in the class 2 car is restricted from 560bhp or so down to the 360-380bhp necessary for it to compete in class 2 but were I organising Britcar I`d be very concerned that it was possibly one step too far. Certainly the car trounced it`s class peers. One lap it was 100 yards behind us, the next it had passed and was 100 yards in front. To me that isn`t class parity. As I started this paragraph by saying this isn`t a criticism of Top Cats, they have read the rule book and by all accounts worked out that by restricting a 560bhp 200bhp or so you get some great torque figures low down in the rev range but I`d be all over that car like a rash were I the organiser.
I`ve had a very quick scan of the 2009 regulations and there are some huge schoolboy fundamental errors with them. I`m not going to pick through the bones on here now but might at some later stage.
I`m going to round off by thanking, as I did on the night, James and all the people behind Britcar for this year. The final trophies are impressive and I thank you for them. I wish you the best of luck in the future. It would be easy to blame any future downturn on the financial climate but I`m not sure that is the case. When times are tight people look closely at where they spend money, are more selective and the cream rises to the top.
Final thanks must go to our fellow competitors. Some close racing, a few choice words from time to time but all sorted with a handshake, a slap on the back and a pint in the bar.
As ever keep smiling.
Henry
Henry.....we have never met but I've been to a few Britcar meetings in the past as a spectator and followed your progress. Wish you luck for the future whatever you decide to do. I've enjoyed reading your posts and think if you do leave britcar it will be a loss to the championship but as a paying customer you have to be happy.
All the best!
All the best!
As I understand it the team informed Britcar of the engine change as was their obligation under the regulations.
As far as I am aware no action was taken by Britcar. I don`t believe it is possible to obtain power figures at the circuit, certainly when I asked the championship technical scrutineer to show me how to obtain the figure from our own data on our car he was unable to do so. Data is sent off and figures produced.
After the event it makes little difference. We didn`t see any point in chasing the Marcos` qualifying time as there was no chance of matching it so we had to forfeit the opportunity to gain additional points, (their race time was also unachievable in our car).
The championship is now decided and the results finalised so I don`t think there is any merit to question them. Look forwards not backwards, but yes, their car and the way Britcar handled things in relation to it was one of the things that influenced my decision not to return next year.
Henry
As far as I am aware no action was taken by Britcar. I don`t believe it is possible to obtain power figures at the circuit, certainly when I asked the championship technical scrutineer to show me how to obtain the figure from our own data on our car he was unable to do so. Data is sent off and figures produced.
After the event it makes little difference. We didn`t see any point in chasing the Marcos` qualifying time as there was no chance of matching it so we had to forfeit the opportunity to gain additional points, (their race time was also unachievable in our car).
The championship is now decided and the results finalised so I don`t think there is any merit to question them. Look forwards not backwards, but yes, their car and the way Britcar handled things in relation to it was one of the things that influenced my decision not to return next year.
Henry
Henry-F said:
I don`t believe it is possible to obtain power figures at the circuit, certainly when I asked the championship technical scrutineer to show me how to obtain the figure from our own data on our car he was unable to do so. Data is sent off and figures produced.
If you have the weight/drag/cda figures for the car the temp/pressure/humidity readings and the power standard they are using it should take about 10 mins to load up the data and analyse it..What they may be doing though is sending the data to race technology to validate it and do the calculations there, and therefore not have anyone onsite that can do it.
Im sure I've got an outline doc on how to do it somewhere if your interested G
"...Certainly the car trounced it`s class peers. One lap it was 100 yards behind us, the next it had passed and was 100 yards in front. To me that isn`t class parity..."
Unfortuantely this sort of controversy has always been rife in Britcar. I remember in the early days cars being moved class during the race itself. In spite of Britcar's new found championship status this chaotic blend of regulations mixed with the discretionary powers of the scrutineers, organising club and whoever types the programme to determine in which class cars run still remains.
One example is that of the little green Elise that first appeared at the 24 Hour race, originally awarded Class 4 status in respect of its weight advantage over the other 1800cc cars, a troubled qualifying saw the car shifted to Class 5 prior to the race. Having found some 17 seconds during the race and having trounced all the other Class 5 cars on pace by a considerable margin; the car reappeared at Brands in Class 3 up against the M3's. Two events, one car, 3 different classes no where but Britcar would this happen..!!!
Unfortuantely this sort of controversy has always been rife in Britcar. I remember in the early days cars being moved class during the race itself. In spite of Britcar's new found championship status this chaotic blend of regulations mixed with the discretionary powers of the scrutineers, organising club and whoever types the programme to determine in which class cars run still remains.
One example is that of the little green Elise that first appeared at the 24 Hour race, originally awarded Class 4 status in respect of its weight advantage over the other 1800cc cars, a troubled qualifying saw the car shifted to Class 5 prior to the race. Having found some 17 seconds during the race and having trounced all the other Class 5 cars on pace by a considerable margin; the car reappeared at Brands in Class 3 up against the M3's. Two events, one car, 3 different classes no where but Britcar would this happen..!!!
A very well thought out and written post from Henry F. Some other equally good ideas from team Holden on the other thread.
One constant refrain appears to be a lack of consistency in application of rules and lack of an ear for a competitor making valid points.
Sorry to hear Henry is voting with his feet. He's one of the last original BritCar competitors left.
One constant refrain appears to be a lack of consistency in application of rules and lack of an ear for a competitor making valid points.
Sorry to hear Henry is voting with his feet. He's one of the last original BritCar competitors left.
gtdc said:
Sorry to hear Henry is voting with his feet. He's one of the last original BritCar competitors left.
I don't expect anyone can say for sure what they intend doing next season, we will be back for more Britcar, all things being equal, and I suspect that Henry and Steve will want to keep us honest and again do everything they can to win in 2009.If they don't, and I hope that's not the case, then we will miss them, for as you say, Henry has supported the series right from the beginning and is passionate about it's continued success. If some of the issues that have been raised in a bid to improve Britcar for 2009 are implemented or resolved, the Virgin 911 boys will be back if only to kick our behinds in a bid to claim the 2009 championship, for with only 2 points separating us this season, they have the ability, experience and tenacity to beat us fair and square. In real terms, we had a little more luck then they did on things like pit stops, safety cars and reliability as our car is a few years younger, unlike our drivers
A big thank you to both Henry and Steve for pushing us to the limits, for always playing fair, and for the excellent banter here and on the track, I think they like racing us too much to miss out on the opportunity of thrashing us in 2009.
Jemco Andy said:
To be fair, he's left once already . . . . and come back!
And remember why I left. Last year we were "told" which rounds we were going to be doing out of the total calendar. Rounds were selected for us by James which gave the rather mad situation of a championship held where different people raced on different circuits against different cars for the same championship !
I paid my deposit on the basis that we could drop a given number of rounds from the total calendar. It turned into a farce, some teams were entered into their favourite circuits others less so and the tracks bore no relation to distance from you or how they suited your particular car. It was a total and utter Joke. In fact we weren`t even allocated enough rounds to complete the series.
For that reason I went back to the Porsche Open series for the year although we did compete in the 24 hour race.
It wasn`t a decision I took lightly and neither will my departure from Britcar next year as looks to be the case at the moment.
Henry
Edited by Henry-F on Monday 17th November 16:25
I will not be competing in the Champinship in 2009 - there is a chance i will race in the odd round depending on funding!
The sole reason for me not coming back in 2009 is a direct result of the organisation at Britcar and in particular the lack of policing the regulations and the total farce regarding safety cars etc.
I will miss the banter in the paddock, the Hawthorn and Jemco boy etc.
Not sure what 2009 will bring, but will be racing somewhere!
Look forward to the unofficial Britcar awards dinner!
The sole reason for me not coming back in 2009 is a direct result of the organisation at Britcar and in particular the lack of policing the regulations and the total farce regarding safety cars etc.
I will miss the banter in the paddock, the Hawthorn and Jemco boy etc.
Not sure what 2009 will bring, but will be racing somewhere!
Look forward to the unofficial Britcar awards dinner!
The "little green Elise" is my car. It runs a standard VVC K series and I guess it may produce 150 bhp. The car weighs about 800 kgs with the driver allowance. You tell me which class its in!
We entered the 24 hours in class 5, James decided it was class 4 (why I have no idea - it is truely a road car running on slicks) and we decided to sand bag in qually. OK, James re classified us as class 5 which was the correct decision. As for running in class 3 at Brands I agree it was silly but I did not care. The Porsche was smashed in practice and we just wanted a race.
Like most people I will find 2009 quite hard. Budgets will be difficult and I will choose my racing carefully. I have no wish to enter a championship which runs another championship within it as I believe the chances of damage are very high. Neither do I want to enter a championship where simple rules are not policed. If Britcar is to continue to thrive it is my opinion they need to put their house in order.
However, James is a brave man and most times I have enjoyed the racing. I thank him and his team for all their effort (I know I would not have done it) and I wish them well. I hope to do a few rounds with them in 2009 but like many I will pick and choose my races next year as I want to get the maximum value for money.
Happy Christmas!
Richard.
We entered the 24 hours in class 5, James decided it was class 4 (why I have no idea - it is truely a road car running on slicks) and we decided to sand bag in qually. OK, James re classified us as class 5 which was the correct decision. As for running in class 3 at Brands I agree it was silly but I did not care. The Porsche was smashed in practice and we just wanted a race.
Like most people I will find 2009 quite hard. Budgets will be difficult and I will choose my racing carefully. I have no wish to enter a championship which runs another championship within it as I believe the chances of damage are very high. Neither do I want to enter a championship where simple rules are not policed. If Britcar is to continue to thrive it is my opinion they need to put their house in order.
However, James is a brave man and most times I have enjoyed the racing. I thank him and his team for all their effort (I know I would not have done it) and I wish them well. I hope to do a few rounds with them in 2009 but like many I will pick and choose my races next year as I want to get the maximum value for money.
Happy Christmas!
Richard.
Graham said:
Henry-F said:
I don`t believe it is possible to obtain power figures at the circuit, certainly when I asked the championship technical scrutineer to show me how to obtain the figure from our own data on our car he was unable to do so. Data is sent off and figures produced.
If you have the weight/drag/cda figures for the car the temp/pressure/humidity readings and the power standard they are using it should take about 10 mins to load up the data and analyse it..What they may be doing though is sending the data to race technology to validate it and do the calculations there, and therefore not have anyone onsite that can do it.
Im sure I've got an outline doc on how to do it somewhere if your interested G
I understand that they checked one of the M3's at Snetterton and came up with a figure of 318 bhp at the wheels, the car in question has over 380 bhp at the wheels [that came from the owner!]
Such a shame - it could be a great series, but not with present management
What about just running an equalisation day like we had to with FIA GT - you give them (SRO) the car for the day, they use one driver for all the cars, on the same circuit/same conditions and they assess the cars on laptimes - not power/weight - but laptimes. Seems simple enough to me.
TimCrighton said:
What about just running an equalisation day like we had to with FIA GT - you give them (SRO) the car for the day, they use one driver for all the cars, on the same circuit/same conditions and they assess the cars on laptimes - not power/weight - but laptimes. Seems simple enough to me.
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