Will TVR ever make a 4WD sportscar ?
Discussion
Will TVR ever make a 4WD sportscar ?
Just wondering really. Besides the loss of some transmitted engine power, and more kg to the kerb weight, is there any disadvantages to this ?
Are there any technical problems for TVR to overcome ?
Do you view a non RWD TVR as sacrilege ?
Not that I'm complaining at the present packages coming out of Blackpool
Regards John S
Just wondering really. Besides the loss of some transmitted engine power, and more kg to the kerb weight, is there any disadvantages to this ?
Are there any technical problems for TVR to overcome ?
Do you view a non RWD TVR as sacrilege ?
Not that I'm complaining at the present packages coming out of Blackpool
Regards John S
(AFAIK).
John_S4x4 said:
Will TVR ever make a 4WD sportscar ?
Just wondering really. Besides the loss of some transmitted engine power, and more kg to the kerb weight, is there any disadvantages to this ?
Are there any technical problems for TVR to overcome ?
Do you view a non RWD TVR as sacrilege ?
Not that I'm complaining at the present packages coming out of Blackpool
Regards John S
In some ways I think it is the next logical step for them. They are approaching the point that the high-end cars may soon be putting out signficantly more power than the rear wheels can convert into forward motion.
There are only two options:
1. Traction Control. (boo hiss)
2. AWD.
As you say, a system capable of handling the power of TVR's engines would add a fair bit of weight to the car but I hope some of the Blackpool elves may be thinking along the following lines:
Consider a new TVR - a roadgoing Cerbera Speed-12 built from a slightly larger version of the existing Cerbera chassis and all-new body panels - with a new, 7.2L V-12 (two blocks with the same bore/stroke as the 3.6L version of the Speed-Six) and a "mere" 800bhp.
They've been building their own engines for a while now and they're reportedly having a go at transmissions now, I think they've probably got all the staff and equipment they need to try their hands at building an AWD system (it isn't like it is a black art).
With a bit of clever packaging and use of lightweight materials, I bet they could keep the car's weight to around 1,300 kilos which would still net them better than 600bhp/tonne. Even with the extra power-loss that is inevitable in AWD systems, I think they could still be looking at a vehicle capable of reliable 3.0 second 0-60 times, a 10 second standing quarter and (with proper aerodynamic design) a top-speed well in excess of 200mph.
They could turn around and flog a couple dozen or so to wealthy loonies and race teams for around £200k and plow the profits into R&D.
The trouble is that I don't see that it would ever be practical to make a conventional TVR with AWD because you really have to get past 500hhp/tonne before things get out of hand for RWD.
Actually, the torque-curve is the thing to keep an eye on here and with the inevitable demise of the AJP8 for emissions reasons, I think they'll probably stick to the Speed-Six. Unless they dramatically increase the low-end torque from the unit or unless they start making V-12s seriously, I don't think they'll get enough torque to start fussing with AWD for their "regular" cars. Especially as tires continue to improve their gripping ability.
I think the next big push for TVR is to make the cars lighter. In fact, I'm surprised they haven't abandoned the use of steel for the chassis and switched to some sort of lightweight alloy-tubing instead. Or perhaps gone entirely composite.
I know carbon-fiber is quite trendy right now but it has significant drawbacks in terms of material and handling. There are also materials which are both stronger and lighter and don't have the same pressure/temperature requirements for curing.
Materials like Kevlar, VeTron or Zylon might prove to be more appropriate and cost-effective for body panels and strong enough for some/most/all structural components as well.
Anyway, look for TVRs in the near future to break the 1000kg barrier yet keep the same fearsome engines.
Of course, as the cars get lighter, they might have to consider a mid-engine design (another TVR "taboo" and not easy to manage with six inline cylinder due to its length, maybe they'll transverse-mount the engine) to keep the handling from going to hell.
Ah, well, we can keep dreaming...
Reference the hypothetical 800bhp Cerbera mentioned above: TVR built a thing called the Speed 12 a few years back. It made an easy 800bhp and was reckoned to be good for 1000. Peter Wheeler decided that was too silly for a road car and binned the project. Given that he can decide the limits (in fact he can decide EVERYTHING), if he did so once why would he not do so again, and simply stop at a point where A Reasonable Man can still exert control over the vehicle? Nobody forces you to do warp speed, just because you can. If you then rely on the vehicle to help you out, that's a bit poncy, is it not? If you want help, buy a Subaru Imprezza. Granted you'll stay on the road better, but the day you do push it and it goes tits-up, YOU won't be good enough to get it back, and the resultant smear on the scenery will be that bid redder.
Ballistic Banana said:
Ballistic Banana said:
Theres a 4x4 Griffith Turbo about somewhere??
It had to be 4x4 as it was pushing out over 500bhp.
BB
It's a Sierra Cosworth with a Griff body....
Are talking about the same one, the one Mr. Powell built??
BB
Geary'c car used to be a stock 4.6 lump with a set of my Buick 300 heads on it to lower the c/r. The turbo was a single T04E mounted at the front of the V. It didn't run well in the early days and it's probable he may have gon to a twin turbo set up and an aftermarket ecu. He was still messing about with the 4.6 ecu when I last spoke with him. There was a lot of graft went into that project and it was 4wd using a cosworth gearbox IIRC.
wedg1e said:
Reference the hypothetical 800bhp Cerbera mentioned above: TVR built a thing called the Speed 12 a few years back. It made an easy 800bhp and was reckoned to be good for 1000. Peter Wheeler decided that was too silly for a road car and binned the project. Given that he can decide the limits (in fact he can decide EVERYTHING), if he did so once why would he not do so again, and simply stop at a point where A Reasonable Man can still exert control over the vehicle? Nobody forces you to do warp speed, just because you can. If you then rely on the vehicle to help you out, that's a bit poncy, is it not? If you want help, buy a Subaru Imprezza. Granted you'll stay on the road better, but the day you do push it and it goes tits-up, YOU won't be good enough to get it back, and the resultant smear on the scenery will be that bid redder.
Yeah, I know the stories of both the original Speed 12 and the Cerbera Speed 12 that snapped TVR's dyno like kindling.
I was just pointing out that if TVR were ever going to make an AWD vehicle, it would have to be something that demanded AWD because of the power output and the V-12 is the only engine TVR has yet made whose power couldn't be transmitted to the road via two wheels.
Still, it would be nice for TVR to offer an power/performance alternative to the Bugatti Veyron for a fraction of the price, wouldn't you agree?
wedg1e said:
If you then rely on the vehicle to help you out, that's a bit poncy, is it not?
No.
Why would fighting the car to find traction be more 'manly' than driving a car, like an Evo VIII, than helps you drive faster?
Verstappen would surely not claim Schumacher is poncy, just because the Ferrari can be driven with less effort than his Minardi.
The hypothetical cerbera again: While you struggle to put the 800bhp through the rear wheels, i would much rather have a clever 4wd/tc system helping out. Would it make me more poncy? Don't care - i'd be travelling faster!
One last point, your limited slip diff helps you out - is that poncy?
Perhaps this will help; basic "ponce" rules for a properly-engineered sports car...
Poncy (a partial list): Traction-Control, ABS, airbags, turbo-chargers, huge whale-tale/tea-tray spoilers, disproportionately large wheels, carbon-fiber used as a fashion accessory... especially cheap plastic made to look like carbon-fiber, anything that calls itself a sports car but weighs more than 1500kg and/or makes less than 250bhp/ton.
Not Poncy (a partial list): AWD - but only in cars that make more than 400bhp/ton, Limited-slip diff, air-con, seatbelts/safety-harnesses, super-chargers, automatic transmissions*, carbon-fiber used as a means to substantially reduce weight in a vehicle, titanium/beryllium/Kelvlar/Nomex used in any vehicle for any reason.
*Owning a car with an auto-box isn't an inherently "poncy" thing to do for a sportscar enthusiast to do provided he or she can actually drive a manual.
>> Edited by Jon Gwynne on Saturday 11th October 13:46
Poncy (a partial list): Traction-Control, ABS, airbags, turbo-chargers, huge whale-tale/tea-tray spoilers, disproportionately large wheels, carbon-fiber used as a fashion accessory... especially cheap plastic made to look like carbon-fiber, anything that calls itself a sports car but weighs more than 1500kg and/or makes less than 250bhp/ton.
Not Poncy (a partial list): AWD - but only in cars that make more than 400bhp/ton, Limited-slip diff, air-con, seatbelts/safety-harnesses, super-chargers, automatic transmissions*, carbon-fiber used as a means to substantially reduce weight in a vehicle, titanium/beryllium/Kelvlar/Nomex used in any vehicle for any reason.
*Owning a car with an auto-box isn't an inherently "poncy" thing to do for a sportscar enthusiast to do provided he or she can actually drive a manual.
>> Edited by Jon Gwynne on Saturday 11th October 13:46
Jon Gwynne said:
Perhaps this will help; basic "ponce" rules for a properly-engineered sports car...
Poncy (a partial list): Traction-Control, ABS, airbags, turbo-chargers, huge whale-tale/tea-tray spoilers, disproportionately large wheels, carbon-fiber used as a fashion accessory... especially cheap plastic made to look like carbon-fiber, anything that calls itself a sports car but weighs more than 1500kg and/or makes less than 250bhp/ton.
Not Poncy (a partial list): AWD - but only in cars that make more than 400bhp/ton, Limited-slip diff, air-con, seatbelts/safety-harnesses, super-chargers, automatic transmissions*, carbon-fiber used as a means to substantially reduce weight in a vehicle, titanium/beryllium/Kelvlar/Nomex used in any vehicle for any reason.
*Owning a car with an auto-box isn't an inherently "poncy" thing to do for a sportscar enthusiast to do provided he or she can actually drive a manual.
>> Edited by Jon Gwynne on Saturday 11th October 13:46
What a load of crap! You cannot purely define what a sports car is or is not given your list of criterior above. Although I do agree with some of your comments about styling!
In addition to my 'non-poncy' 500 Chimaera, with no PAS or anything else likely to drain V8 power I own a Nissan 300ZX.
Now the Nissan may not be an out and out sports car, I would call it a GT. But having said that it kicks out 360+ at the fly thanks to the 3ltr V6 and the two T25 turbos attached. I have retro fitted Racelogic TC, leaving it set at 10% slip, offering optimal traction in most conditions. Whist the lard arse 300 weighs in at 1590Kg (530Kg more than my Chimaera), it still manages a respectable 0-60 time of around 5 sec and a top (derestricted) speed in excess of 170. Now say it's not a sports car.
And before anyone shouts, the car has be modified with sensible mods, boost increase, rechipped, induction and exhaust. Oh, did I forget to mention it's also an AUTOMATIC, with a very nifty aftermarket manual control device, so it's a semi-auto.
Tim
PS, One last thing, the Zed comes with a Titanium ignition key, does that count as a substantial weight saving? I know one thing for sure it's a lot nicer than the vauxhall one I have for my TVR!
>> Edited by TT Tim on Saturday 11th October 14:11
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