Britcar 2009, what really needs to change (if anything)
Discussion
Before I start, lets get one thing clear, I would be posting this irrespective of the way the Championship has turned out, in other words, it's what I really think and not some idle thoughts as a result of a good season.
Guy's, we have got to change the way we look at Britcar from this moment on if for no other reason then the fear of being regarded as competitors who like nothing more then a good moan. I for one wish to remain as positive as I possibly can as I don't believe that half the issues raised on this forum are worth all the negative vibes that then ensue.
Hand on heart, racing in Britcar has been. for us, far more rewarding then any of the other series we have raced in, and by quite a margin. Yes, there are problems that need attention, and again, yes, there are inconsistencies that need resolving, but lets not forget the main reasons that we, in the main, all participate in Motorsport, It's for our enjoyment and to feed our passions, we should also remember that we are damn lucky to be in the positions we are, in order to avail ourselves of the excitement it provides.
In very simple terms, or simplistic if you prefer, we race in an Endurance series, and the very nature of the beast is encapsulated in the title, we are not sprint racers, or time trialists, we do not seek the records for fastest lap times, it's not what we are about. We race in order to finish in the best possible time we can allowing for all the factors that can effect the outcome, we seek consistency, safety, reliability and performance but to different degrees dependent on the cars we choose to enter. It undoubtedly helps not to have vast differences in performance capabilities within the class structures but it's not the be and end all, it just one part of the equation for as a very clever man once said "for every action there is a reaction". If outright performance is your thing, expect reliability to be potentially at risk, if you are out gunned on the straight, relax and consider the cost to that car in terms of how long it can keep going, how effective will it's tyres be when you cruise up behind him a little later in the race when his lap times drop down due to verious form of degradation, endurance is the name of the game, and strategy is it's hand maiden.
As for regulations, agreed, it's important to define these as clearly as possible from the outset, enforcing them is a different matter and is entirely dependent on how harshly you want to see them applied for human nature being what it is, there will always be those that push the rules to the limit and beyond.
Look, I could go on all day addressing all the points that many have raised on this forum, but lets get some perspective on this entire matter, and ask ourselves some very straight forward questions, why do we want to race in the Britcar series?, what are we looking for in racing terms? and finally, why do we do what we do???
When each of us considers these questions and delivers honest answers, those who think that Britcar covers all, or most of the bases, as rightly or wrongly, I do, albeit to varying degrees, can then turn are collective attention to constructive, and above all, positive ways to assist Britcar in moving forward.
There is a lot of luck to be found in our form of racing, good and bad, but it's the same for all of us, just this last weekend, we had the bad luck to be stuck in the pit lane for the race start, then, what we thought at the time was further bad luck, our radio gave up the ghost. The latter turned out to be a blessing for the team were desperately trying to bring me in but with no communication, I was left to judge when or when not, to pit. Luck of the good verity then played it's part as I came in just as the SC boards came out, luck again intervened when our second driver left the pits and made the green light 1 second before it turned red, as I said, it's the same for all of us, good and bad, so lets not worry too much if the organisers get the odd thing wrong here and there or the officials miss this or that, go with the flow, take the good with the bad and above all remember why we do what we do.
I'll shut the f
k up now as I can just imagine several of you reading this post and thinking, what's the stupid old bugger going on about, but it's my honest opinion for what it's worth so if you don't agree, please feel free to flame me, but gently so, otherwise I might have to take up golf for 2009 
Guy's, we have got to change the way we look at Britcar from this moment on if for no other reason then the fear of being regarded as competitors who like nothing more then a good moan. I for one wish to remain as positive as I possibly can as I don't believe that half the issues raised on this forum are worth all the negative vibes that then ensue.
Hand on heart, racing in Britcar has been. for us, far more rewarding then any of the other series we have raced in, and by quite a margin. Yes, there are problems that need attention, and again, yes, there are inconsistencies that need resolving, but lets not forget the main reasons that we, in the main, all participate in Motorsport, It's for our enjoyment and to feed our passions, we should also remember that we are damn lucky to be in the positions we are, in order to avail ourselves of the excitement it provides.
In very simple terms, or simplistic if you prefer, we race in an Endurance series, and the very nature of the beast is encapsulated in the title, we are not sprint racers, or time trialists, we do not seek the records for fastest lap times, it's not what we are about. We race in order to finish in the best possible time we can allowing for all the factors that can effect the outcome, we seek consistency, safety, reliability and performance but to different degrees dependent on the cars we choose to enter. It undoubtedly helps not to have vast differences in performance capabilities within the class structures but it's not the be and end all, it just one part of the equation for as a very clever man once said "for every action there is a reaction". If outright performance is your thing, expect reliability to be potentially at risk, if you are out gunned on the straight, relax and consider the cost to that car in terms of how long it can keep going, how effective will it's tyres be when you cruise up behind him a little later in the race when his lap times drop down due to verious form of degradation, endurance is the name of the game, and strategy is it's hand maiden.
As for regulations, agreed, it's important to define these as clearly as possible from the outset, enforcing them is a different matter and is entirely dependent on how harshly you want to see them applied for human nature being what it is, there will always be those that push the rules to the limit and beyond.
Look, I could go on all day addressing all the points that many have raised on this forum, but lets get some perspective on this entire matter, and ask ourselves some very straight forward questions, why do we want to race in the Britcar series?, what are we looking for in racing terms? and finally, why do we do what we do???
When each of us considers these questions and delivers honest answers, those who think that Britcar covers all, or most of the bases, as rightly or wrongly, I do, albeit to varying degrees, can then turn are collective attention to constructive, and above all, positive ways to assist Britcar in moving forward.
There is a lot of luck to be found in our form of racing, good and bad, but it's the same for all of us, just this last weekend, we had the bad luck to be stuck in the pit lane for the race start, then, what we thought at the time was further bad luck, our radio gave up the ghost. The latter turned out to be a blessing for the team were desperately trying to bring me in but with no communication, I was left to judge when or when not, to pit. Luck of the good verity then played it's part as I came in just as the SC boards came out, luck again intervened when our second driver left the pits and made the green light 1 second before it turned red, as I said, it's the same for all of us, good and bad, so lets not worry too much if the organisers get the odd thing wrong here and there or the officials miss this or that, go with the flow, take the good with the bad and above all remember why we do what we do.
I'll shut the f
k up now as I can just imagine several of you reading this post and thinking, what's the stupid old bugger going on about, but it's my honest opinion for what it's worth so if you don't agree, please feel free to flame me, but gently so, otherwise I might have to take up golf for 2009 I think that's pretty fair Rod. It's a never ending battling trying to level out the playing field. It's an inexact science, as different cars suit different circuits on different days. For that reason I think a penalty for each race won, as per DSC would be a great route to go down. I doesn't single out any one make of car, or any one team. It's a simple, unpolitical and unbiased method and it's worked pretty well for the Dutch. Other than that, it is what it is and I knew that when I signed up. Long live Britcar!
Lets not forget the hole championship also came down to 2 996 cup cars with a couple of points between them!! You can have as much BHP as you like but as Rod stated you need some luck and lots of reliability, if you don't finish each race your not going to win an endurance championship 
It's that old addage... To finish first, first you have to finish.
I have two cars that could run in Britcar, but both of them would need work to make them reliable enough to last 1hr, let alone 2, 3, 4, 6, or 24hrs!
Sitting on the fence (throwing occaisional stones), the only thing I'd like to see is to echo the calls for greater and more consistent policing of the PTW on cars. That means more trips over the weighbridge, and more coast-down tests to ensure that the DL1's have the right data in them.
I have two cars that could run in Britcar, but both of them would need work to make them reliable enough to last 1hr, let alone 2, 3, 4, 6, or 24hrs!
Sitting on the fence (throwing occaisional stones), the only thing I'd like to see is to echo the calls for greater and more consistent policing of the PTW on cars. That means more trips over the weighbridge, and more coast-down tests to ensure that the DL1's have the right data in them.
thunderbelmont said:
It's that old addage... To finish first, first you have to finish.
I have two cars that could run in Britcar, but both of them would need work to make them reliable enough to last 1hr, let alone 2, 3, 4, 6, or 24hrs!
Sitting on the fence (throwing occaisional stones), the only thing I'd like to see is to echo the calls for greater and more consistent policing of the PTW on cars. That means more trips over the weighbridge, and more coast-down tests to ensure that the DL1's have the right data in them.
But there is more to this than power to weight and you'll never get 100% accurate data out of a DL1.I have two cars that could run in Britcar, but both of them would need work to make them reliable enough to last 1hr, let alone 2, 3, 4, 6, or 24hrs!
Sitting on the fence (throwing occaisional stones), the only thing I'd like to see is to echo the calls for greater and more consistent policing of the PTW on cars. That means more trips over the weighbridge, and more coast-down tests to ensure that the DL1's have the right data in them.
Quite frankly, I think RR has got it absolutely right.
Until I'd been on the PH forum I wasn't aware there was quite so much discussion and discontent about the class structures which in all probability don't add up to more than a bag of beans. I would never condone any form of 'cheating' but if classes have some disparity-so what? - at the end of the day this is endurance racing and anything can, and usually does, happen- who would expect your team mates light pod to come flying over their bonnet and wreck your radiator 3 laps from the end?!- you couldn't invent it.
I was lucky enough to take part in the first Britcar race at Snett way back and since then the series/championship has changed out of all recognition-starting as a clubbie style series for drivers who wanted to go endurance racing and get real value for their weekends away. I stopped circuit racing in the 80's because of the enormous cost to family (divorced!-she attacked the car!) and wallet of going racing at weekends when all I got was a 20 minute practice session and 20 minute race (and if you stalled it-that was it) Actually, remembering, I did select reverse on the grid instead of 1st for a standing start once-not to be repeated!!
Britcar has introduced me and others to circuits like Zolder, Spa and BH GP that I would never have been to if it wasn't for James and his crew and for that I am very grateful.
We have just suffered an austere year of business in 2008 and I don't relish another poor one in 2009 but I really hope that Britcar can weather the storm and remain live and kicking for 2010 and, in my view, that can only happen if drivers are committed to supporting the championship and don't just drive as and when it (or the Regs) suits them.
Good crowds at the A1 and 24hr meetings show that the series is getting better supported and was, so I'm told, the best racing of the weekend. Why?- because there was loads of overtaking with different classes of cars and something to watch throughout the whole race-not just a procession of different coloured similar cars which can't overtake because they're so similar.
I for one,really hope Britcar teams and drivers will continue to give their full support to a great year next year - the calendar now looks greatly improved and whilst I don't relish the thought of being buzzed by 6 Moslers all vying for gold I guess I'll just have to try to go quicker!
OK, I'm getting off my soapbox now and going to make a cup of tea, but finally, in my first post I forgot to thank Warren and the TC team for a great weekend and for spending so much money on me in the bar!
Regards to all,
Jon H
Until I'd been on the PH forum I wasn't aware there was quite so much discussion and discontent about the class structures which in all probability don't add up to more than a bag of beans. I would never condone any form of 'cheating' but if classes have some disparity-so what? - at the end of the day this is endurance racing and anything can, and usually does, happen- who would expect your team mates light pod to come flying over their bonnet and wreck your radiator 3 laps from the end?!- you couldn't invent it.
I was lucky enough to take part in the first Britcar race at Snett way back and since then the series/championship has changed out of all recognition-starting as a clubbie style series for drivers who wanted to go endurance racing and get real value for their weekends away. I stopped circuit racing in the 80's because of the enormous cost to family (divorced!-she attacked the car!) and wallet of going racing at weekends when all I got was a 20 minute practice session and 20 minute race (and if you stalled it-that was it) Actually, remembering, I did select reverse on the grid instead of 1st for a standing start once-not to be repeated!!
Britcar has introduced me and others to circuits like Zolder, Spa and BH GP that I would never have been to if it wasn't for James and his crew and for that I am very grateful.
We have just suffered an austere year of business in 2008 and I don't relish another poor one in 2009 but I really hope that Britcar can weather the storm and remain live and kicking for 2010 and, in my view, that can only happen if drivers are committed to supporting the championship and don't just drive as and when it (or the Regs) suits them.
Good crowds at the A1 and 24hr meetings show that the series is getting better supported and was, so I'm told, the best racing of the weekend. Why?- because there was loads of overtaking with different classes of cars and something to watch throughout the whole race-not just a procession of different coloured similar cars which can't overtake because they're so similar.
I for one,really hope Britcar teams and drivers will continue to give their full support to a great year next year - the calendar now looks greatly improved and whilst I don't relish the thought of being buzzed by 6 Moslers all vying for gold I guess I'll just have to try to go quicker!
OK, I'm getting off my soapbox now and going to make a cup of tea, but finally, in my first post I forgot to thank Warren and the TC team for a great weekend and for spending so much money on me in the bar!
Regards to all,
Jon H
I'm not suggesting that we should be looking to equalise cars within tenths of each other, but it could be closer than it is now. The result would be closer racing with exciting overtaking that you actually have to work for, rather than overtaking on straights and leaving for dead. IMO one is exciting, the other is merely one notch above a procession.
Sorry Rod, and Jon but I think you are both viewing this through rose tinted glasses.
To say we are not all about setting the fastest lap in qualifying begs the question why you spent so much effort trying to get Jay to pip everyone to the post at Brands the other night (and almost succeeded on the last lap of qualifying but for his getting baulked by a car at Clearways
). The championship came down to 2 points and you get 1 point for fastest lap in qualifying, one for the race. Had you not bothered to try and wring the last knockings out of qualifying, done your race re-fuelling during qualifying as we did knowing it was going to be tight getting onto the grid (as per the driver`s briefing) then you`d have made it onto the grid.
Jon, as your Marcos stands it`s one of those cars that would seem to have a bit of an advantage in class two so clearly you wouldn`t be overly fussed about sorting things out. Here`s a thing - if you`re genuinely not bothered about all the power to weight thing take out the chevvy engine and run a Rover V8 340bhp engine, I think the engine it ran in the Marcos Challenge and the basis on which it was put into class 2.
Ignore class 2 for a moment and focus on class 1:
How would you have felt racing a 997 GT3 cup car against a Mosler turning up every round knowing you had absolutely no chance of getting on the podium? Because that`s what happened in class 1 this year. Would you still have turned up just to enjoy the banter and raced around? I would suggest not but Britcar allowed it to happen.
No, Britcar has bungled along with class disparity for too long. With each new season comes promise that this year it`s all going to be sorted and yet at the end of the day nothing changes. Budgets spiral ever upwards, those Rover V8 4.4 litre 340bhp Marcos class 2 cars now sport LS7 7.0 litre Mosler engines.
If nothing is done the series will fizzle away leaving a handful of cars that managed to either beat the system or stay below the radar whilst other more standard cars, that form the bulk of cars out there, drift away to race series where they are more competitive.
Henry
To say we are not all about setting the fastest lap in qualifying begs the question why you spent so much effort trying to get Jay to pip everyone to the post at Brands the other night (and almost succeeded on the last lap of qualifying but for his getting baulked by a car at Clearways
). The championship came down to 2 points and you get 1 point for fastest lap in qualifying, one for the race. Had you not bothered to try and wring the last knockings out of qualifying, done your race re-fuelling during qualifying as we did knowing it was going to be tight getting onto the grid (as per the driver`s briefing) then you`d have made it onto the grid.Jon, as your Marcos stands it`s one of those cars that would seem to have a bit of an advantage in class two so clearly you wouldn`t be overly fussed about sorting things out. Here`s a thing - if you`re genuinely not bothered about all the power to weight thing take out the chevvy engine and run a Rover V8 340bhp engine, I think the engine it ran in the Marcos Challenge and the basis on which it was put into class 2.
Ignore class 2 for a moment and focus on class 1:
How would you have felt racing a 997 GT3 cup car against a Mosler turning up every round knowing you had absolutely no chance of getting on the podium? Because that`s what happened in class 1 this year. Would you still have turned up just to enjoy the banter and raced around? I would suggest not but Britcar allowed it to happen.
No, Britcar has bungled along with class disparity for too long. With each new season comes promise that this year it`s all going to be sorted and yet at the end of the day nothing changes. Budgets spiral ever upwards, those Rover V8 4.4 litre 340bhp Marcos class 2 cars now sport LS7 7.0 litre Mosler engines.
If nothing is done the series will fizzle away leaving a handful of cars that managed to either beat the system or stay below the radar whilst other more standard cars, that form the bulk of cars out there, drift away to race series where they are more competitive.
Henry
topcats jon said:
I stopped circuit racing in the 80's because of the enormous cost to family (divorced!-she attacked the car!) and wallet of going racing at weekends when all I got was a 20 minute practice session and 20 minute race (and if you stalled it-that was it) Actually, remembering, I did select reverse on the grid instead of 1st for a standing start once-not to be repeated!!
Good crowds at the A1 and 24hr meetings show that the series is getting better supported and was, so I'm told, the best racing of the weekend. The calendar now looks greatly improved and whilst I don't relish the thought of being buzzed by 6 Moslers all vying for gold I guess I'll just have to try to go quicker!
My GT Cup weekend prior to Britcar night race. These times are for me, not the car.Good crowds at the A1 and 24hr meetings show that the series is getting better supported and was, so I'm told, the best racing of the weekend. The calendar now looks greatly improved and whilst I don't relish the thought of being buzzed by 6 Moslers all vying for gold I guess I'll just have to try to go quicker!
Friday : Four 30 minute sessions
Saturday : Two 30 minute sessions. 15 minutes qualifying.
Sunday Two 25 minute races, rolling starts, close grids that reward good driving.
1 set of tyres for the weekend, total entry fees £970 and that included first class hospitality centre and television.
Things have moved on from a single 20 minute standing start race alternative to Britcar.
Britcar is not supporting A1GP this year. I understand GT Cup will be.
Henry
Here`s a thing - if you`re genuinely not bothered about all the power to weight thing take out the chevvy engine and run a Rover V8 340bhp engine, I think the engine it ran in the Marcos Challenge and the basis on which it was put into class 2.
Henry, to clarify a small point, The Mantis challenge cars were all fitted with 4.6 litre Ford Modular engines, Marcos claimed 385 bhp but none were ever seen to make more than 300bhp on the dyno.
Back in 2003 a standard challenge car lapped Brands Indy at 50.6, these cars were bulit initially to do 20 minute races, it's only through development by teams, like ourselves,that they have improved and are now capable of doing endurance racing, we simply didn't have the budget to buy a Porsche!
andy97 said:
Even the most basic of club series usually have fairly well defined tech regs so that everyone understands the basis of the competition and can choose their "weapon" accordingly.
Thats the reason Rod and Jan decided to stay with the 996 this year instead of upgrading to a 997!! It was apparent if they upgraded they would not be competitive in class. Henry-F said:
Sorry Rod, and Jon but I think you are both viewing this through rose tinted glasses.
To say we are not all about setting the fastest lap in qualifying begs the question why you spent so much effort trying to get Jay to pip everyone to the post at Brands the other night (and almost succeeded on the last lap of qualifying but for his getting baulked by a car at Clearways ). The championship came down to 2 points and you get 1 point for fastest lap in qualifying, one for the race. Had you not bothered to try and wring the last knockings out of qualifying, done your race re-fuelling during qualifying as we did knowing it was going to be tight getting onto the grid (as per the driver`s briefing) then you`d have made it onto the grid.
Henry
Henry, I think you know I was talking in general terms, and my fastest lap comment applied to the main race, not qualifying. It is therefore reasonable where circumstances call for it, to try an obtain an advantage and gain an extra point for fastest qualifying lap particularly when every point will help to maintain or add to the margin you are endeavouring to keep. Your take on our efforts in qualifying has more to do with strategy then the main race so I don't think it devalues the overall issue I was attempting to address. It could be said that at times, Qualifying is a mini sprint race, but we both know that the actual main event is a different kettle of fish !!To say we are not all about setting the fastest lap in qualifying begs the question why you spent so much effort trying to get Jay to pip everyone to the post at Brands the other night (and almost succeeded on the last lap of qualifying but for his getting baulked by a car at Clearways
). The championship came down to 2 points and you get 1 point for fastest lap in qualifying, one for the race. Had you not bothered to try and wring the last knockings out of qualifying, done your race re-fuelling during qualifying as we did knowing it was going to be tight getting onto the grid (as per the driver`s briefing) then you`d have made it onto the grid.Henry
I don't mind one bit if the class structures are somewhat hit and miss up to a certain degree, I don't have an issue with the Marcos running in class 2 provided it complies roughly to the rules, I really don't have too much to say about the policing aspect to be honest, Britcar do the best they can at this stage of their development and I'm sure they intend improving and refining the rules and regs as we move from season to season. They do listen to the concerns of the competitors as no doubt you listen to your clients in your business, it does not mean however that you accept or act upon every suggestion or complaint. I know that you are passionate about your motorsport and are, or certainly have been, keen to see changes at Britcar that in real terms level the playing field so that pure driver skill becomes the ultimate factor, unless I'm misreading your comments, but not everyone will agree that it is necessary to tighten up this and regulate that to the extent that there is no longer any room for experimentation, development and freedom of action and expression. I raced in British GT, for 2 seasons, what a miserable experience that was, why we didn't get out earlier is a constant reminder that I allowed the kudos and so called prestige of racing in that series take president over the enjoyment that could be obtained from it.
I will finish by asking a question or two, why, if you are right about the mess you think Britcar is in, combined with the warnings of dire consequences, do we have the support and grids we do, to date in any event, not withstanding the current economic conditions, and why is it that in the overall Britcar GT results, 3 bog standard, class 2 996's fill the first, second and forth places? Finally, would there be any credence or even consideration given to support banning 996's as they are far too reliable and don't give anyone else the chance of winning the championship. How far do we go Henry in a bid to give everyone a fair crack at the whip ?
First they came for the Moslers, I didn't care as I didn't drive a Mosler.
Then they came for the Marcos drivers, but again I didn't object as I didn't drive a Marcos.
Then they came for me, but there was nobody left to stop them.
Getting what you want is one thing, wanting what you get can be an uncomfortable reality.
Edited by Racing Rod on Wednesday 19th November 13:26
[
To be honest every series/championship ive been exposed to has people unhappy with the regs/ policing etc... its when they stop saying anything your in trouble !!!
andy97 said:
Even the most basic of club series usually has the competitors moaning all season long about the regs, points system and what the organiser has / hasn't done
EFA To be honest every series/championship ive been exposed to has people unhappy with the regs/ policing etc... its when they stop saying anything your in trouble !!!
No, I don't think there is too much risk of people chasing Porsches out of the competition on the grounds of reliability although they could well leave of their own accord if they can`t find the necessary extra power to keep up with the Jones`. I`m not sure owners of 997 model GT3`s will be beating a path to the Britcar offices for instance in spite of their being a large number out there competing.
The only reason they came looking for Moslers was because someone fecked up when they were writing up the regs for class 1 and put them in the same class as 997 cup cars and Ferrari 430 etc. Owners of those cars moaned they were too quick and so Britcar made a half hearted attempt to put the brakes on them, although clearly they were never going to equal out the differences. Had someone done their homework and looked at likely lap times they would have realised there was a problem and divided class 1 up into 2, possibly 3 classes.
As for why we performed so well? Because we did every round, were going to come 4th worst ways (possibly 5th at times), hadn`t got any competition from 997 model Porsches, Ferraris, etc because they couldn`t possibly score points against the class "1a" cars such as the Moslers. The Moslers were taking points off each other a little and all had rounds where they either didn`t attend, failed to finish or came 10th. We couldn`t have finished 10th if we tried ! We were also very lucky that the Marcos kept blowing diffs & clutches (and running over each others headlamp pods.
By the same token the fact Ian and Mike were the only car to finish class 4 on occasion didn`t harm their chances of picking up the overall driver title and Production S1 cup !
On a positive note nice to see Britcar have sorted out the results page and hyperlinked through to individual round results. Well done.
Keep smiling
Henry
The only reason they came looking for Moslers was because someone fecked up when they were writing up the regs for class 1 and put them in the same class as 997 cup cars and Ferrari 430 etc. Owners of those cars moaned they were too quick and so Britcar made a half hearted attempt to put the brakes on them, although clearly they were never going to equal out the differences. Had someone done their homework and looked at likely lap times they would have realised there was a problem and divided class 1 up into 2, possibly 3 classes.
As for why we performed so well? Because we did every round, were going to come 4th worst ways (possibly 5th at times), hadn`t got any competition from 997 model Porsches, Ferraris, etc because they couldn`t possibly score points against the class "1a" cars such as the Moslers. The Moslers were taking points off each other a little and all had rounds where they either didn`t attend, failed to finish or came 10th. We couldn`t have finished 10th if we tried ! We were also very lucky that the Marcos kept blowing diffs & clutches (and running over each others headlamp pods
. By the same token the fact Ian and Mike were the only car to finish class 4 on occasion didn`t harm their chances of picking up the overall driver title and Production S1 cup !
On a positive note nice to see Britcar have sorted out the results page and hyperlinked through to individual round results. Well done.
Keep smiling
Henry
The regs are always going to favour some cars and disadvantage others.
In DSC a 997 is a Class 2 (SuperSport 1) car, along with the 996. Class 1 (GT Division) is populated by ex DTM cars, Mosler, Viper, TVR, Marcos +, V8 Star, 996/997 GT3 RS
If you raced in Britcar in 2008 then a 996 was a better prospect than a 997, as you were competitive in Class 2
If you raced in DSC, a 997 was a better prospect in SS1 than a 996.
You weren't going to win any pots in a 997 Cup car in the top class of either series.
If James shifts the classes so that a 997 is the benchmark car in Class 2 then that will please some and not others. It would make no sense to subdivide classes further but perhaps he should allow 997s in Class 2. Combine that with success penalty seconds at pit stops (worked out very carefully) and you'll even things out amongst the 997s and 996s within 3 races.
I accept that the cars made in the traditional fashion as God intended (steel chassis, plastic body ) are able to more easily modify their cars to stay competitive as class limits evolve, or to switch between classes. That is an advantage to the car owner, albeit the trade off is that these cars tend to be of rather elderly chassis design and have inherent problems keeping headlight pods where they belong. It is much easier and cheaper for me to slip a 600bhp engine into my TVR than Henry or Rod to acheive the same in their Pork. That being the case I have no issue with a periodic test of my power and weight.
Everyone seems to accept that the Moslers are legal. There has been the odd muttering about the TVR, although not from the Mosler boys.
I don't think Britcar is broken. Sure it could improve, but couldn't we all? As I said elsewhere on here, stop the loss making expansion exercises so Britcar entry fees aren't subsidising anything other than things which either directly benefit Britcar competitors or give James the profit he needs to continue, possibly tweak the classes slightly, have a careful think about performance equalisation through time penalties, sort out the safety car, deliver on pre season promises and then all you're left to deal with is the global economic meltdown....
In DSC a 997 is a Class 2 (SuperSport 1) car, along with the 996. Class 1 (GT Division) is populated by ex DTM cars, Mosler, Viper, TVR, Marcos +, V8 Star, 996/997 GT3 RS
If you raced in Britcar in 2008 then a 996 was a better prospect than a 997, as you were competitive in Class 2
If you raced in DSC, a 997 was a better prospect in SS1 than a 996.
You weren't going to win any pots in a 997 Cup car in the top class of either series.
If James shifts the classes so that a 997 is the benchmark car in Class 2 then that will please some and not others. It would make no sense to subdivide classes further but perhaps he should allow 997s in Class 2. Combine that with success penalty seconds at pit stops (worked out very carefully) and you'll even things out amongst the 997s and 996s within 3 races.
I accept that the cars made in the traditional fashion as God intended (steel chassis, plastic body
) are able to more easily modify their cars to stay competitive as class limits evolve, or to switch between classes. That is an advantage to the car owner, albeit the trade off is that these cars tend to be of rather elderly chassis design and have inherent problems keeping headlight pods where they belong. It is much easier and cheaper for me to slip a 600bhp engine into my TVR than Henry or Rod to acheive the same in their Pork. That being the case I have no issue with a periodic test of my power and weight.Everyone seems to accept that the Moslers are legal. There has been the odd muttering about the TVR, although not from the Mosler boys.
I don't think Britcar is broken. Sure it could improve, but couldn't we all? As I said elsewhere on here, stop the loss making expansion exercises so Britcar entry fees aren't subsidising anything other than things which either directly benefit Britcar competitors or give James the profit he needs to continue, possibly tweak the classes slightly, have a careful think about performance equalisation through time penalties, sort out the safety car, deliver on pre season promises and then all you're left to deal with is the global economic meltdown....
teamHOLDENracing said:
The regs are always going to favour some cars and disadvantage others.
I don't think Britcar is broken. Sure it could improve, but couldn't we all? As I said elsewhere on here, stop the loss making expansion exercises so Britcar entry fees aren't subsidising anything other than things which either directly benefit Britcar competitors or give James the profit he needs to continue, possibly tweak the classes slightly, have a careful think about performance equalisation through time penalties, sort out the safety car, deliver on pre season promises and then all you're left to deal with is the global economic meltdown....
I knew someone could finally compress all the issues into 8 lines, and I think that really makes the point that in real terms there is not a hell of a lot that needs attention once you cut through all the crap, and all said in a very positive fashion.I don't think Britcar is broken. Sure it could improve, but couldn't we all? As I said elsewhere on here, stop the loss making expansion exercises so Britcar entry fees aren't subsidising anything other than things which either directly benefit Britcar competitors or give James the profit he needs to continue, possibly tweak the classes slightly, have a careful think about performance equalisation through time penalties, sort out the safety car, deliver on pre season promises and then all you're left to deal with is the global economic meltdown....
The biggest of all the issues is undoubtedly the last line
You`re a very positive chap Rod and all the better for it. If it were a house I see Britcar as a reasonable looking place. The layout is a bit odd, for some reason they`ve chosen to put the kitchen on the first floor and two of the bedrooms on the ground floor just to be different. But it all works, the windows close, the lights turn on and off, hot and cold water come out of the taps.
The problem is it`s built on sub-standard foundations. The architect took a guess at the dimensions for the RSJ that supports the back wall where the knock through conservatory was built and he also had a stab at specifying all the plumbing and wiring specs. Oh, and he might have been a bit out on the insulation.
When a single bloke lived there on his own it was ok. Now a family of 5 have moved in, started loading the place up with furniture and plugging loads of stuff into the plug sockets a few problems are starting to appear. At what stage do you need to step in and do something and when does it change from a few annoying little cracks to a total disaster that makes the front pages.
As a little back water where people come out to play Britcar was fine, now it`s trying to hit the big time and asking people to spend 50,000 100,000 or even 150,000 a season to come and play the foundations need to be strong enough to support everything. All I`ve seen is people either laugh off any attempt at regulation, bury their heads in the sand or kid themselves that they`ve got it all under control.
Is it broken? Yes, I think it is and quite fundamentally so.
Can it be mended? Yes, and ironically quite easily too. Underpinning isn`t particularly technical or hard, you just need hard working men with shovels. But there has to be humility in acknowledging the faults that were there and that expert advice has to be sought. There also needs to be a will to see the repair succeed.
As with any building job there will be folks in hard hats arguing over which method to use when there are probably a number of suitable solutions. Having said that the traditionally used methods are usually the best.
If nothing is done or normal service resumes and promises are made, then broken, I`m sure people will still turn up to go racing. You and Jan will be there, Top Cats will be there and I`m sure a number of others will tip up. But the new blood that comes in is replacing people leaving at the other end. Stop the people leaving, continue to attract new entrants and before long you`ll be beating the off with a stick.
There is definitely money out there. GT Cup has had grids of 30 odd cars in just it`s first year. I`ll wager most of those people will come back and there will be new entrants as well.
Henry
Henry
The problem is it`s built on sub-standard foundations. The architect took a guess at the dimensions for the RSJ that supports the back wall where the knock through conservatory was built and he also had a stab at specifying all the plumbing and wiring specs. Oh, and he might have been a bit out on the insulation.
When a single bloke lived there on his own it was ok. Now a family of 5 have moved in, started loading the place up with furniture and plugging loads of stuff into the plug sockets a few problems are starting to appear. At what stage do you need to step in and do something and when does it change from a few annoying little cracks to a total disaster that makes the front pages.
As a little back water where people come out to play Britcar was fine, now it`s trying to hit the big time and asking people to spend 50,000 100,000 or even 150,000 a season to come and play the foundations need to be strong enough to support everything. All I`ve seen is people either laugh off any attempt at regulation, bury their heads in the sand or kid themselves that they`ve got it all under control.
Is it broken? Yes, I think it is and quite fundamentally so.
Can it be mended? Yes, and ironically quite easily too. Underpinning isn`t particularly technical or hard, you just need hard working men with shovels. But there has to be humility in acknowledging the faults that were there and that expert advice has to be sought. There also needs to be a will to see the repair succeed.
As with any building job there will be folks in hard hats arguing over which method to use when there are probably a number of suitable solutions. Having said that the traditionally used methods are usually the best.
If nothing is done or normal service resumes and promises are made, then broken, I`m sure people will still turn up to go racing. You and Jan will be there, Top Cats will be there and I`m sure a number of others will tip up. But the new blood that comes in is replacing people leaving at the other end. Stop the people leaving, continue to attract new entrants and before long you`ll be beating the off with a stick.
There is definitely money out there. GT Cup has had grids of 30 odd cars in just it`s first year. I`ll wager most of those people will come back and there will be new entrants as well.
Henry
Henry
Henry,
Enough of the Architectural analogies, I have enough of that at work!
As has been mentioned by Rod and Holden, There would had been more than enough merit for me or any other Mosler driver to wage war on the TVR entry. All you have to do is look on youtube to see how quick that thing was as it sailed away from me at Snetterton
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=hxf6GhaV7Ro
I took the view that it was as quick as the guy driving it. The same would apply to any car on the grid. The Ferrari for example, in the right hands should have been knocking on the door at Brands for speed in class 1.
I will reiterate that i agree that there can be things done, and quite simply, for competitors to feel that there is a greater degree of parity within their classes, but when it comes to driver ability on it's own, the only way i think you will ever feel the level of satisfaction that you have mentioned you require to go racing, your better off in a one make series.
Remember, GT Cup is made up of two different cars currently. As soon as the Lambo and the Seldon's BMW showed up, there were different winners. As soon as this series has more than two or three makes init, they will be suffering the same issues.
As an aside, the only reason that GT Cup has got hold of the A1 GP support race, is because Palmer is hosting their series on his MSVR bill these days.
Enough of the Architectural analogies, I have enough of that at work!
As has been mentioned by Rod and Holden, There would had been more than enough merit for me or any other Mosler driver to wage war on the TVR entry. All you have to do is look on youtube to see how quick that thing was as it sailed away from me at Snetterton
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=hxf6GhaV7Ro
I took the view that it was as quick as the guy driving it. The same would apply to any car on the grid. The Ferrari for example, in the right hands should have been knocking on the door at Brands for speed in class 1.
I will reiterate that i agree that there can be things done, and quite simply, for competitors to feel that there is a greater degree of parity within their classes, but when it comes to driver ability on it's own, the only way i think you will ever feel the level of satisfaction that you have mentioned you require to go racing, your better off in a one make series.
Remember, GT Cup is made up of two different cars currently. As soon as the Lambo and the Seldon's BMW showed up, there were different winners. As soon as this series has more than two or three makes init, they will be suffering the same issues.
As an aside, the only reason that GT Cup has got hold of the A1 GP support race, is because Palmer is hosting their series on his MSVR bill these days.
Ah well. Just so long as everyone is happy that`s the main thing
I live in the real world where ideals are rarely if ever achieved but what was it someone once said?
Aim for the stars and you might just reach the moon.
If you`re happy bouncing around on a pogo stick you`ll struggle to reach the height of the fence post!
You will never ever achieve parity in multi-make series and I`m well aware of that. But you at least have to give it a serious try. Having driven your 996 GT3 and now your Mosler how would you feel about competing against a car powered by your Mosler engine in a GT3 on supposedly equal terms ?
You`re all good guys and I hope you carry on enjoying your motor racing.
H.
edited to say just watched the video and Definitely best off out of Britcar. The thought of a load of those chasing each other through the field for a cash prize doesn`t bear thinking about !!! There`ll be a few people who had the st scared out of them that meeting The front guy in a pair or chain of cars wouldn`t have had a clue you were there, especially as he turned in for the Esses at the end of the back straight!
I live in the real world where ideals are rarely if ever achieved but what was it someone once said?
Aim for the stars and you might just reach the moon.
If you`re happy bouncing around on a pogo stick you`ll struggle to reach the height of the fence post!
You will never ever achieve parity in multi-make series and I`m well aware of that. But you at least have to give it a serious try. Having driven your 996 GT3 and now your Mosler how would you feel about competing against a car powered by your Mosler engine in a GT3 on supposedly equal terms ?
You`re all good guys and I hope you carry on enjoying your motor racing.
H.
edited to say just watched the video and Definitely best off out of Britcar. The thought of a load of those chasing each other through the field for a cash prize doesn`t bear thinking about !!! There`ll be a few people who had the s
t scared out of them that meeting The front guy in a pair or chain of cars wouldn`t have had a clue you were there, especially as he turned in for the Esses at the end of the back straight! Edited by Henry-F on Wednesday 19th November 22:01
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