Auschwitz and Birkenau
Discussion
Just got back from a weekend in Krakow and whil there visited Auschwitz and Birkenau concentration camps.
Since going theres been one thing thats been on my mind and i cant get my head around it. I understand that theres evil people in the world who wont take much prodding to do certain things but in those camps were loads of guards etc who would have been fairly normal people with a family etc. Why did those seemingly ordinary people carry out such appalling acts of cruelty and brutality to the prisoners did they not realise that these people were the same as them with the same thoughts, the same feelings.
I cant believe that they thought what they were doing was OK they knew it was wrong, as evidenced by them trying to destroy the evidence when the soviets were advancing. Did one idiot with a stupid moustache have such a hold over an entire nation?
I dont think i could put an animal to sleep, even if it was in pain, let alone slaughter millions of people (women and children included) as a day job. How did they wake up every day and live with themselves? This is what i just can't comprehend.
Since going theres been one thing thats been on my mind and i cant get my head around it. I understand that theres evil people in the world who wont take much prodding to do certain things but in those camps were loads of guards etc who would have been fairly normal people with a family etc. Why did those seemingly ordinary people carry out such appalling acts of cruelty and brutality to the prisoners did they not realise that these people were the same as them with the same thoughts, the same feelings.
I cant believe that they thought what they were doing was OK they knew it was wrong, as evidenced by them trying to destroy the evidence when the soviets were advancing. Did one idiot with a stupid moustache have such a hold over an entire nation?
I dont think i could put an animal to sleep, even if it was in pain, let alone slaughter millions of people (women and children included) as a day job. How did they wake up every day and live with themselves? This is what i just can't comprehend.
Borris-Bear said:
I cant believe that they thought what they were doing was OK they knew it was wrong, as evidenced by them trying to destroy the evidence when the soviets were advancing. Did one idiot with a stupid moustache have such a hold over an entire nation?
That's the point. They did think it was OK. That's what ten years of concerted propganda will do. And no society is immune from this. Just see how easy it is to generate hatred and bile from PH posters if you just mention a number of key words - such as "chavs", "pikeys" "dole-scroungers", "immigrants" etc etc.
Latent hate for groups within society always exists. All you need is for a clever and persuasive plotician to harness and legitimise this hatred and, given enough time, the end result could be places like Auschwitz or Birkenau.
I would highly recommend a look at the TV documentary, "The Nazis - A Warning from History". It was shown on the BBC in 1997 and is available as a DVD.
Eric Mc said:
I would highly recommend a look at the TV documentary, "The Nazis - A Warning from History". It was shown on the BBC in 1997 and is available as a DVD.
Anything by Laurence Rees is well worth watching/reading. Am currently reading and watching the Stalin & the Nazis book/tv series on BBC2 on Mondays. Very good and very eye opening.Borris-Bear said:
in those camps were loads of guards etc who would have been fairly normal people with a family etc. Why did those seemingly ordinary people carry out such appalling acts of cruelty and brutality to the prisoners did they not realise that these people were the same as them with the same thoughts, the same feelings.
It is shockingly easy to get 'ordinary people' to behave like this."The Stanford prison experiment was a study of the psychological effects of becoming a prisoner or prison guard. The experiment was conducted in 1971 by a team of researchers led by psychologist Philip Zimbardo at Stanford University. Twenty-four undergraduates were selected out of 70 to play the roles of both guards and prisoners and live in a mock prison in the basement of the Stanford psychology building. Those selected were chosen for their lack of psychological issues, crime history, and medical disabilities, in order to obtain a representative sample. Roles were assigned based on a coin toss.[1]
Prisoners and guards rapidly adapted to their roles, stepping beyond the boundaries of what had been predicted and leading to dangerous and psychologically damaging situations. One-third of the guards were judged to have exhibited "genuine" sadistic tendencies, while many prisoners were emotionally traumatized and two had to be removed from the experiment early. After a graduate student Zimbardo was dating objected to the inhumane conditions in the prison, and realizing that he had been passively allowing unethical acts to be performed under his direct supervision, Zimbardo concluded that everyone including himself had become too absorbed in their roles and terminated the experiment after six days"
sends a chill, doesn't it....
UV
You could try reading "If This Is a Man", by Primo Levi. A very good, and unjudgemental, tale of his period there.
Obviously, a decade of vilification legitimised the treatment of the Jews in many people's eyes. Also, I think a large part of this was moving the forces around so they were never acting against 'their own'. Stalin did the same with Russian forces.
Obviously, a decade of vilification legitimised the treatment of the Jews in many people's eyes. Also, I think a large part of this was moving the forces around so they were never acting against 'their own'. Stalin did the same with Russian forces.
I think Lord of the Flies sums this kind of behaviour quite well, group of school kids end up following 2 leaders the aggressive/ tougher one ends up with the majority and they follow him with few questions asked, behaving in a way that they wouldn't have dreamed of back in their school, just because of one boy. And I think there have been studies done. For the life of me I can't remember what it's described as. However it is basically normal people who in everyday situations wouldn't even contemplate being involved in such atrocities and afterwards would almost not believe it was them commiting them but during it the power etc just gets to them. I'm not excusing it but there are reasons for 'sane' people to act this way.
scotal said:
Weren't some camp guards released from prisons in Germany solely for the purpose of working as camp guards? Hand-picked for their inhumanity, as it were.
Prisoners were released from jail to keep guard over Concentration Camp inmates working off site (they built a factory down the road from Birkenau IIRC) This saved the Nazis providing Army/SS guards to watch over the Camp inmates whilst they carried out their slave labour.Obviously, these ex-cons were murderers, rapists, thieves, etc so weren't exactly from the moral premier league.
Ultraviolet said:
It is shockingly easy to get 'ordinary people' to behave like this.
"The Stanford prison experiment was a study of the psychological effects of becoming a prisoner or prison guard. The experiment was conducted in 1971 by a team of researchers led by psychologist Philip Zimbardo at Stanford University. Twenty-four undergraduates were selected out of 70 to play the roles of both guards and prisoners and live in a mock prison in the basement of the Stanford psychology building. Those selected were chosen for their lack of psychological issues, crime history, and medical disabilities, in order to obtain a representative sample. Roles were assigned based on a coin toss.[1]
Prisoners and guards rapidly adapted to their roles, stepping beyond the boundaries of what had been predicted and leading to dangerous and psychologically damaging situations. One-third of the guards were judged to have exhibited "genuine" sadistic tendencies, while many prisoners were emotionally traumatized and two had to be removed from the experiment early. After a graduate student Zimbardo was dating objected to the inhumane conditions in the prison, and realizing that he had been passively allowing unethical acts to be performed under his direct supervision, Zimbardo concluded that everyone including himself had become too absorbed in their roles and terminated the experiment after six days"
sends a chill, doesn't it....
UV
That was a scary experiment. Also revelvant is the Milligram experiment; this essentially found that over 60% of people would administer a potentially fatal electric shock to someone just because a person in authority told them to."The Stanford prison experiment was a study of the psychological effects of becoming a prisoner or prison guard. The experiment was conducted in 1971 by a team of researchers led by psychologist Philip Zimbardo at Stanford University. Twenty-four undergraduates were selected out of 70 to play the roles of both guards and prisoners and live in a mock prison in the basement of the Stanford psychology building. Those selected were chosen for their lack of psychological issues, crime history, and medical disabilities, in order to obtain a representative sample. Roles were assigned based on a coin toss.[1]
Prisoners and guards rapidly adapted to their roles, stepping beyond the boundaries of what had been predicted and leading to dangerous and psychologically damaging situations. One-third of the guards were judged to have exhibited "genuine" sadistic tendencies, while many prisoners were emotionally traumatized and two had to be removed from the experiment early. After a graduate student Zimbardo was dating objected to the inhumane conditions in the prison, and realizing that he had been passively allowing unethical acts to be performed under his direct supervision, Zimbardo concluded that everyone including himself had become too absorbed in their roles and terminated the experiment after six days"
sends a chill, doesn't it....
UV
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
Doesn't the old adage apply here:
"I was just doing my job"
I have often thought about this. Just goes to demonstrate the power of propaganda in altering our perception of what is right and what is wrong. Either that, or we all harbour a dark side which, in some people, manifests itself when certain buttons are pushed.
Although witnessing or being responsible for a death is a rare occurrence, I guess that you would become immune to it once you had seen enough. Certainly not trying to justify the guards' actions (or lack of intervention), but I would imagine that in their position I might ultimately accept what was going on around me as 'normality'. Combine this with the propaganda justifying what was going on as being for the greater good, as well as having it drummed into you that you must follow orders and I could just about understand how young, impressionable men could be swallowed up in the evil of the situation they found themselves in. Killing someone is a life changing event, but in a artificially influenced situation is there really any difference between 1, or 2, or 200?
Interested to see if there are any accounts of guards who stood up and said that what was happening was wrong. I wonder (though suspect I already know) what happened to them. Equally, how many guards actually helped the concentration camp prisoners, knowing full well the penalites they would receive for doing so.
As a quick aside, It is not just the guards who were at fault. The residents of the towns and villages that were adjacent to the camps must have known what was going on. Did they simply turn a blind eye, or were they too scared to say anything?
"I was just doing my job"
I have often thought about this. Just goes to demonstrate the power of propaganda in altering our perception of what is right and what is wrong. Either that, or we all harbour a dark side which, in some people, manifests itself when certain buttons are pushed.
Although witnessing or being responsible for a death is a rare occurrence, I guess that you would become immune to it once you had seen enough. Certainly not trying to justify the guards' actions (or lack of intervention), but I would imagine that in their position I might ultimately accept what was going on around me as 'normality'. Combine this with the propaganda justifying what was going on as being for the greater good, as well as having it drummed into you that you must follow orders and I could just about understand how young, impressionable men could be swallowed up in the evil of the situation they found themselves in. Killing someone is a life changing event, but in a artificially influenced situation is there really any difference between 1, or 2, or 200?
Interested to see if there are any accounts of guards who stood up and said that what was happening was wrong. I wonder (though suspect I already know) what happened to them. Equally, how many guards actually helped the concentration camp prisoners, knowing full well the penalites they would receive for doing so.
As a quick aside, It is not just the guards who were at fault. The residents of the towns and villages that were adjacent to the camps must have known what was going on. Did they simply turn a blind eye, or were they too scared to say anything?
Borris-Bear said:
Just got back from a weekend in Krakow and whil there visited Auschwitz and Birkenau concentration camps.
Since going theres been one thing thats been on my mind and i cant get my head around it. I understand that theres evil people in the world who wont take much prodding to do certain things but in those camps were loads of guards etc who would have been fairly normal people with a family etc. Why did those seemingly ordinary people carry out such appalling acts of cruelty and brutality to the prisoners did they not realise that these people were the same as them with the same thoughts, the same feelings.
I cant believe that they thought what they were doing was OK they knew it was wrong, as evidenced by them trying to destroy the evidence when the soviets were advancing. Did one idiot with a stupid moustache have such a hold over an entire nation?
I dont think i could put an animal to sleep, even if it was in pain, let alone slaughter millions of people (women and children included) as a day job. How did they wake up every day and live with themselves? This is what i just can't comprehend.
they believed in what they were doing. just as we do now.Since going theres been one thing thats been on my mind and i cant get my head around it. I understand that theres evil people in the world who wont take much prodding to do certain things but in those camps were loads of guards etc who would have been fairly normal people with a family etc. Why did those seemingly ordinary people carry out such appalling acts of cruelty and brutality to the prisoners did they not realise that these people were the same as them with the same thoughts, the same feelings.
I cant believe that they thought what they were doing was OK they knew it was wrong, as evidenced by them trying to destroy the evidence when the soviets were advancing. Did one idiot with a stupid moustache have such a hold over an entire nation?
I dont think i could put an animal to sleep, even if it was in pain, let alone slaughter millions of people (women and children included) as a day job. How did they wake up every day and live with themselves? This is what i just can't comprehend.
Monki said:
scotal said:
Weren't some camp guards released from prisons in Germany solely for the purpose of working as camp guards? Hand-picked for their inhumanity, as it were.
I have heard the same thing, I think a lot ended up in the SS too?
Certain divisions of the SS were 'penal' batallion's with prisoners who had only committed minor offences and nutter's hand picked for their brutality! These people were given a choice Join fight do exactly what we say or you'll be shot/hung etc. The propaganda and brainwashing in 1930's Germany was only beaten by the Communist's in Russia! Borris-Bear said:
I cant believe that they thought what they were doing was OK they knew it was wrong, as evidenced by them trying to destroy the evidence when the soviets were advancing. Did one idiot with a stupid moustache have such a hold over an entire nation?
You also have to remember that our generation have the benefit of a full investigation and dissection of the events in WW2 and the Holocaust after the event.The guards, etc at Auschwitz obviously knew what was going on but A) probably thought they were the only ones doing it and b) were so brainwashed by Nazi propaganda and fear they felt they were doing the right thing.
If you tell enough people the same thing over and over again from the right social standpoint, they'll believe it.
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