Jaguar 5 point plan to recovery

[Paracetamol]

Short term ways that I would use to turn Jaguar around..

1) rebadge the X type under some other TATA brand and sell in China, India and Russia at knock down prices (using the falling pound)

2) Make only 2 variants of XF petrol or diesel and load fully with big wheels etc (a al Lexus)- no XF should leave a showrooom with small wheels - they look crap- it has to hit the road looking glamerous. Slight face lift to get rid of the square front and the Focus convertible rear chrome and they have a winner. (no overstocking or wrong variant issues - just make them in different colours!)

3) discontinue the current XJ - free up resources to quick step the design of the new one and get it out there ASAP- a petrol and a diesel both below 226g kkm and then a a nice V8- a luxury variant and a sports variant for all engine options

4) XK8- new interior and a diesel option- 20 inch sentas a must - emissions below 226- no more crap wood options

5) 5 year warranty and service pack on all cars

[groomi]

Or...

1) Persuade UK Government to donate £1billion.

2) After a period of 'struggle', shift production to India and ditch the expensive UK jobs.

3) Scrap the current design team and replace with India's finest. Facelift all models to include gold lanterns on bonnets and a complimentary gold plated tissue box on every parcel shelf.

4) Die a quiet death after producing taxis for 25 years.

[Jaguar steve]

Paracetamol said:

Short term ways that I would use to turn Jaguar around..

1) rebadge the X type under some other TATA brand and sell in China, India and Russia at knock down prices (using the falling pound)

2) Make only 2 variants of XF petrol or diesel and load fully with big wheels etc (a al Lexus)- no XF should leave a showrooom with small wheels - they look crap- it has to hit the road looking glamerous. Slight face lift to get rid of the square front and the Focus convertible rear chrome and they have a winner. (no overstocking or wrong variant issues - just make them in different colours!)

3) discontinue the current XJ - free up resources to quick step the design of the new one and get it out there ASAP- a petrol and a diesel both below 226g kkm and then a a nice V8- a luxury variant and a sports variant for all engine options

4) XK8- new interior and a diesel option- 20 inch sentas a must - emissions below 226- no more crap wood options

5) 5 year warranty and service pack on all cars

But I like the crap wood options, the leather, chrome, comfort, and the traditional styling of the XJ. It's one of the main reasons why Jaguars sell so well in the States. It's also the reason why I've had Jaguars for the last 15 years and am on my third XJ.

And there's the problem. How do you keep all Jaguars potential customers happy?

I don't really like the other Jaguar models - I'll agree they are excellent cars and deserve to sell well - but none of them appeal enough to me to consider spending tens of thousands of pounds on a new one. I don't really need cutting-edge styling - which will look terribly dated in 5 years time - Bluetooth conectivity, sat nav, Pimp My Ride alloys, novelty rotating airvents or Chinese takeaway fish tank interior lighting, and if that's all Jaguar offer in the future I won't be buying.

So what do Jaguar do? Change the product and alienate the more traditional buyer like me, or keep the things I like about the cars and make the more modern image orientated buyer who wouldn't be seen dead in a old man's car like mine carry on buying BMW/Lexus/Mercedes instead?

Tough call.

(and edited for speelin)

Edited by Jaguar steve on Thursday 27th November 09:34

[a8hex]

This is always the problem.

I've no desire to own an XF, it's a probably a great car, but it doesn't rock my boat.
I'd love a new XK, but it doesn't fit my needs at the moment.
I didn't buy one of the X350 XJs because, to me, it doesn't appeal as much as the X300/X308 shape. I never changed my X300 because there wasn't ever any need. Sure there are lots of toys my 94 car doesn't have, but nothing that I can't easily live without or cope with in another way. Unlike JS I think Bluetooth would be good, I had a Peugeot rental a while back which linked to my phone really easily and even with the roof down picked up my voice fine and above all muted the HiFi/paused the CD while I was on the phone. But wearing a BT ear piece is hardly an issue, and it works when I get out of the car too. The phone does SatNav, and is much easier to replace/update than any system built in to the car.

One of Jaguar's problems is that for a lot of owners they've already got a Jag that shows no signs of needing to be replaced. When I last spoke to the salesman at the local dealer the conversation went along the lines of :-
"OK you've had the car for 12 years, when are you thinking of replacing it?"
"Err, when it needs replacing. There is nothing wrong with this one, why get another one"
"You wouldn't believe how often I hear that line, but it is very difficult to convince new buyers how long these things last - makes my life difficult though!"


I guess the X-Type won't be going anywhere. I doubt anyone is going to invest the required amount of money in developing that class of Jag.

XF is new and I guess is doing well in the market, but the market is currently sged.

XJ, well it appeals to some and not to others. It's being radically updated anyway, We'll have to wait and see. The only customer I know who's seen one (or pictures of one) says it looks really good. He is what might be viewed a typical Jaguar owner.

XK is getting more power soon to continue this inevitable arms race with the Germans. As to a diesel version, I guess they feel it needs more poke than the current engine gives. There is a new diesel engine coming soon too. I guess the V8 diesel was too wide to fit between the front suspension towers. I guess that Tata still have access to that engine as LR use it. Hopefully it will make it into the new XJ, not sure they can do much about it for the XK though.

Back in Jaguar's hey day they built their reputation on being able to sell twice the car at half the price of any of their rivals. I don't think anyone is ever going to do that again. I don't think it is now possible.

[x200sxy]

a8hex said:

"OK you've had the car for 12 years, when are you thinking of replacing it?"

I took my XJS past the local dealer a few months ago and the salesman asked much the same except it was "it IS time you were replacing that, why do you want to drive that rather than a new XK?"

Apart from the fact I can't afford a new XK the XJS is one of the most instantly recognisable shapes there is of course. I told him it would probably be with me for the rest of my days.

[piquet]

Paracetamol said:

Short term ways that I would use to turn Jaguar around..

1) rebadge the X type under some other TATA brand and sell in China, India and Russia at knock down prices (using the falling pound)

2) Make only 2 variants of XF petrol or diesel and load fully with big wheels etc (a al Lexus)- no XF should leave a showrooom with small wheels - they look crap- it has to hit the road looking glamerous. Slight face lift to get rid of the square front and the Focus convertible rear chrome and they have a winner. (no overstocking or wrong variant issues - just make them in different colours!)

3) discontinue the current XJ - free up resources to quick step the design of the new one and get it out there ASAP- a petrol and a diesel both below 226g kkm and then a a nice V8- a luxury variant and a sports variant for all engine options

4) XK8- new interior and a diesel option- 20 inch sentas a must - emissions below 226- no more crap wood options

5) 5 year warranty and service pack on all cars

It's very hard for a car company to survive without lower models, do you think bmw would get rid of the 316 or 318? you need something to introduce people to the brand at a lower price, i've spoken to a whole load of x-type owners who love them and didn't want something german, i may not like the styling and it needs to be redone but jaguar always used to have a cheap intro model, hence the mark I/II

big wheels are not the answer to everything, ali is heavier then air hence more unsprung weight, low profile may be an advantage for cornering but are not good for tyre noise or ride comfort, if people want big wheels the option is there, if they agree with your taste they can change it
the variant and options are how they make their money, you hook people in with one price and then by the time you add the options you want it's much more then you originally planned, the germans are king of this, do you really think it costs so much more to produce the higher models?

the present xj continues to sell, i assume you've owned one? personally i've had the equivalent merc, bmw and audi for a couple of weeks each and was glad to get back to my xj. The new XJ is coming, but to rush it out would be suicide it needs to be developed properly it will be a very different car, the present xj is the last of this design ( i would say classic design, i know not all people like it, but never understand why it's acceptable for the germans to just tweak a design, look what happened with Bangle) the new one will be bigger and more expensive, think 100k for the top model, i'm not sure how stopping production and sales helps bring the new one out sooner? I think people spending 50k on a car don't care too much abut the banding, if you want a big engine, even with the £400 road tax, it's an extra £100-150 a year, less then a gallon of fuel a week, questions need to be asked why the same car can be remapped and suddenly drop it's co2 production, either the original was burning extra fuel on purpose or the new one is sub optimal

the present warranty is 4 years or 50,000 miles, which is pretty much standard, the servicing is cheap but in my opinion like most modern servicing they've replaced cheap with thorough, this results in longer service intervals, it means the car survives the warranty period but runs into problems soon after, this is soon known which hits second hand prices which then makes the car more expensive for the original purchasers, i can see the point of a 5 year warranty to give the owner confidence, but servicing packages are cheap for a reason.

what would you like instead of wood? easily scratched ali? of carbon fibre? both great materials but when used for a purpose, an all carbon fibre zonda looks great, because there is a reason it's carbon fibre, it saves weight, to add a chunk of carbon fibre to look "sporty" is just naff beyond belief, why shouldn't people be able to choose wood if they want wood?

[Jaguar steve]

x200sxy said:

a8hex said:

"OK you've had the car for 12 years, when are you thinking of replacing it?"

I took my XJS past the local dealer a few months ago and the salesman asked much the same except it was "it IS time you were replacing that, why do you want to drive that rather than a new XK?"

Apart from the fact I can't afford a new XK the XJS is one of the most instantly recognisable shapes there is of course. I told him it would probably be with me for the rest of my days.

I called at my local Jaguar dealer some while ago now, to pick up some parts in my Series 3 XJ. The service manager came over and asked if he could take their apprentice out to have a look at it as he'd never seen one...

[a8hex]

x200sxy said:

a8hex said:

"OK you've had the car for 12 years, when are you thinking of replacing it?"

I took my XJS past the local dealer a few months ago and the salesman asked much the same except it was "it IS time you were replacing that, why do you want to drive that rather than a new XK?"

Apart from the fact I can't afford a new XK the XJS is one of the most instantly recognisable shapes there is of course. I told him it would probably be with me for the rest of my days.

OK, I can't pretend I could afford a new XK at the moment, but even when I could afford to change my current XJ I couldn't see any reason to. I've driven the new XJ and it's an outstanding car. The NA 4.2 is pretty quick and SC ones go like stink. But my train of thought was that is it £50K better than my current XJ?
I prefer mine's looks and I prefer the feel of driving mine, it feels more connected. Other than that the new one is great, the ride is unbelievable, at least the one I've had out in the US was. But justifying the price of a new or very nearly new one compared with my current XJ just didn't add up. It might make sense to replace the Mrs Merc with an XJ Diesel, but only coz the Merc's component build quality is on a par with 70s BL.


JS, last time I was in at the main deeler, they wanted me to bring my XK150 down too. Can we put it in the showroom for a while?

[a8hex]

piquet said:

questions need to be asked why the same car can be remapped and suddenly drop it's co2 production, either the original was burning extra fuel on purpose or the new one is sub optimal

The whole emission thing is just a big con.

Emissions out == function of fuel used.
That function is going to be different for petrol and diesel, but it's still a pretty straight function.

For octane you burn one molecule of octane (c8H18) which bonds in to a whole load of oxygen and you get our 8 molecules of CO2 and 9 of water. Sorry I can't be arsed to find out what the average hydro-carbon molecule in the average tank of diesel is.

C8H18 has an atomic weight of 8*12 + 18*1 = 114
CO2 has an atomic weight of 1*12 + 2*16 = 44
H2O has an atomic weight of 2*1 + 1*16 = 18
The CO2 you get out weighs in at 8*44, 256
And you get 9*18, 162 of water.

So for every 114g of octane you put in the tank you get out 256g of CO2. You also raise the sea levels to the tune of 162g of water. Most of what comes out of your exhaust pipe is actually nitrogen which went in at one end straight out of the other without really adding anything in the middle except stealing a whole load of the available energy since it all needed compressing and heating up.

Emmissions == consumption.

So why the change in basing tax on emissions?
Well partly because that's the latest baddie in the world
But mostly because no one can argue with it because the man in the street can't measure it. The trip computer tells you what your fuel consumption is so if you car ends up in one band and you always get better economy then you'd give the taxman a hard time because you'd know he was just mugging you. It would be a piece of piss for manufactures to add the emissions figures to the trip computer - I wonder why they've never bothered!

[900T-R]

piquet said:

big wheels are not the answer to everything, ali is heavier then air hence more unsprung weight, low profile may be an advantage for cornering but are not good for tyre noise or ride comfort, if people want big wheels the option is there, if they agree with your taste they can change it

Jaguars major on refinement, ride quality and fluency - the XFs saving grace in the press is that everyone realises you don't need to have the 18s which severely compromise all of the above.

[NST]

Paracetamol said:

Short term ways that I would use to turn Jaguar around..

1) rebadge the X type under some other TATA brand and sell in China, India and Russia at knock down prices (using the falling pound)

2) Make only 2 variants of XF petrol or diesel and load fully with big wheels etc (a al Lexus)- no XF should leave a showrooom with small wheels - they look crap- it has to hit the road looking glamerous. Slight face lift to get rid of the square front and the Focus convertible rear chrome and they have a winner. (no overstocking or wrong variant issues - just make them in different colours!)

3) discontinue the current XJ - free up resources to quick step the design of the new one and get it out there ASAP- a petrol and a diesel both below 226g kkm and then a a nice V8- a luxury variant and a sports variant for all engine options

4) XK8- new interior and a diesel option- 20 inch sentas a must - emissions below 226- no more crap wood options

5) 5 year warranty and service pack on all cars

1) agree with that! If jaguar had got round to creating the X-type R it would have been a different matter. the x-type has no halo product.

2)XF, agree looks so much nicer with 19/20in alloys. the front could do with a slight redesign to bring it closer to the concept. get the v6 diesel to be under 180g. ahigh end diesel which the new 3.0 should do the job) drop the 3.0 v6.. it doesn't cut the mustard against the competition -unless a better unit can be sourced? 280bhp with fat torque curve is required that is economical.. if the 4.2 can be made to be economical (Direct Injection?) with co2 under 226g that could be even better. or maybe a updated supercharged/turbo charged v6? then the 5.0L N/A and supercharged units at the top of the tree. if jag can start introducing alu to the doors/bonnet etc to bring the weight down that would be ideal. imho the light weight programme that jag have taken with the XJ and XK has imho help jag stay competitive even the though the engines aren't so great (not referring to the V8!)

3) introduce the 3.0L diesel into the XK. introduce a GT3 type version that is light weight, using carbon fibre for the roof, lightweight brake discs/alloys etc try and remove 100kg. this will sit at top with the 550bhp supercharged engine.

4)XJ update the v6 petrol (same in XF)in the short term, and improve the Co2 of the diesel. introduce the more powerful diesel unit. the new updated exterior can't come soon enough. new 5.0 will make a welcome update when the exterior is is update.

5) 5 year 100K + service pack (optional). nothing says more about reliability than a solid warranty!

6) don't take away the wood/leather feeling from jags. people actually like it. if a jag didn't have the option of wood it would be a jag.. it would look like another dark interior german car..

[mondayo]

Surely Jag/TATA need to decide what direction they want the company to go in? Do they want to try and compete with the 3 german brands, or be slightly smaller and build fewer different cars.
I think they have the ability and capability to take the Germans on, but it's not going to happen overnight.

1) According to an inside source, X-type numbers are currently on the up! Maybe down to the recent upgrade/facelift and surely helped by the addition of an auto on the 2.2 diesel. Once the new XJ has been signed off, they need to focus on a new X-type....I mean if they want to be successfully, they have to have a volume seller in the range, and no matter how good the other cars are, you're never going to see that many big exec cars.
They also need to sell different variants of it...4 door saloon, estate, convertible to compete with the 3 series on every level, they also need a "halo" car, and a 6 cylinder diesel.

2) XF can continue as is at the moment....its already very popular. It just needs a bigger diesel and I believe the XF-R is already on its way.

3) Isnt the Xj well on its way?

4) XK, as much as it pains me to say it, it does need a big smooth and powerfull diesel. As well as the new 5.0 supercharged unit.

I think that overall Jag make good cars, but have had to on a shoestring budget over the last few years. They should try and make their USP that they make lightweight/sporty/efficient cars so they can offer a viable alternative to the germans. They need to be making cars that are at least as good as a BMW to make people want to switch!

Well, thats my 2 penneth anyway.

[900T-R]

I feel fuel economy/CO2 emissions not being competitive with the Germans for a given size/performance level might well be the downfall of Jaguar if they don't update their engine technology pronto. They might want to buy in direct injection petrol technology, brake energy regeneration, start/stop systems etc. PDQ. Accepting that aluminium spaceframe techology has proven to be too costly for models below the XJ, I feel they have to look for ways to make lightweight build methods trickle down to the lower positioned models - 1,800+ kg XFs are simply too much.

[piquet]

interestingly i've met someone who's working on the regenerative breaking for jaguar, the idea is kind of a partial hybrid, so when you slow down the power is stored when the engine is stationary it's charging and then when you pull off the stored electricity does all the work with the engine kicking in when it's got going, i guess you even have the option of using both, i was told it was for a model coming very soon, draw your own conclusions

this seems like sensible energy management rather then going down the lines of a hybrid

the new xj won;t have the air suspension either, going over the the magnetic dampners

[Paracetamol]

I wanted to clarify my positon on the wood options. I've nothing against wood but there are nice matt options and different ones to burr walnut (e.g black ash). The XF is offering these.

The point on the wheels is that no Jag should ever look under tyred. They should always look drop dead gorgeous. Each time an XF is seen it should take your breath away (or at least look as good as it can). On the XF that means big wheels. On the the XK that means big wheels- and I havent seen one faclift XJ on the road to have an opinion!! In terms of ride compromise- I've driven the XK on 20s and it feels beautifully compliant- no issues whatsoever