Biases aside, greatest auto racing history?
Discussion
I really need help on this. I'm a young'n with no hardcore racing friends to consult and so I was wondering which car producer and or racing car producer has the greatest racing history in all time? I was thinking it had to be Porsche or Ferrari. It seems to me Porsche might have a greater history in racing. What do you think? F1 is important but there have been other forms of racing just as challenging. Also, I believe engineering "firsts" is important to.
IMO it has to be Lotus. They either invented, or made work, just about every concept used in motor racing today. And just look at their F1 cars - the 72 arrived when F1 cars were huge, clunky beasts that looked like vacuum-cleaners with slicks, and when everyone caught up, they released the 78 and so on.
And they were winners too. I know they're not in F1 today, but they still put up a plucky showing in GT racing. I'm still holding out hope that one day they will return, given the right backing, but as it's history we're talking about here, they have a lot to show.
And they were winners too. I know they're not in F1 today, but they still put up a plucky showing in GT racing. I'm still holding out hope that one day they will return, given the right backing, but as it's history we're talking about here, they have a lot to show.
PiB said:
I was wondering which car producer and or racing car producer has the greatest racing history in all time?
Difficult! The first-ever race is generally agreed to have been the Paris-Rouen 110 years ago.
That makes the all-time greatest a little hard to judge, but Mercedes would insist it was them!
They would probably be right, although Ferrari might protest....
Trouble is it goes in cycles, at one time it would have to be Alfa, then Bugatti, then MG, then Lotus and you have to spread it across all classes not just GP or even single seaters.
As Ian says Merc have been there from the start so they have to be front runners. It would certainly be tempting to include Ferrari and Porsche but they are post war Johnny come latelys as were Lotus and Cooper which makes 'all time great' a bit to all embracing. Perhaps we have to look a little further afield and consider the American car makers. Chevrolet, Buick and Ford were there at the birth of racing and still help to populate the ovals and short tracks all over the USA recording sucesses week after week.
Let me know when you have an answer, its all too difficult for me to get my aged head around.
As Ian says Merc have been there from the start so they have to be front runners. It would certainly be tempting to include Ferrari and Porsche but they are post war Johnny come latelys as were Lotus and Cooper which makes 'all time great' a bit to all embracing. Perhaps we have to look a little further afield and consider the American car makers. Chevrolet, Buick and Ford were there at the birth of racing and still help to populate the ovals and short tracks all over the USA recording sucesses week after week.
Let me know when you have an answer, its all too difficult for me to get my aged head around.
can you not look to see which manufacturers won the most titles (in as many forms of motrosport as you can find out info on) through decades until present.
Start at 1900 say and work each out. Tally up the end. Whilst i agree that Lotus have been extremely prolific in motorsport, i reckon it has to be someone like mercedes (so hate saying that!)
Porsche haven't been around as long as some of the bigger manufacturers, but of course have taken motorsport v. seriously and have been very scuccesful since 70's(?) in many categories. Bentley equalled mercedes before leaving motorsport in the 30's(?), so can't count have lost claim due to missing out all teh big titles of the later decades. This i imagine would be similar to the to all the other big British names.
Merc have been around since the year dot and have been racing in one form or another from about the start of their history.....
Start at 1900 say and work each out. Tally up the end. Whilst i agree that Lotus have been extremely prolific in motorsport, i reckon it has to be someone like mercedes (so hate saying that!)
Porsche haven't been around as long as some of the bigger manufacturers, but of course have taken motorsport v. seriously and have been very scuccesful since 70's(?) in many categories. Bentley equalled mercedes before leaving motorsport in the 30's(?), so can't count have lost claim due to missing out all teh big titles of the later decades. This i imagine would be similar to the to all the other big British names.
Merc have been around since the year dot and have been racing in one form or another from about the start of their history.....
How about asking Bill Boddy then? Author of 'History of Motor Racing' and Founder Editor of 'Motor Sport', he must be the ultimate authority on the question this side of the Atlantic.
Gnomesmith's quite right to remind us of the Americans though, so we'd have to find an American historian too!
If you want to get really confused have a look at this, and the NASCAR section of the same site!
www.sportsfacts.net/history/motor_racing/indycar/indianapolis_500/indy_500_winners.html
Still put my money on Merc...
Gnomesmith's quite right to remind us of the Americans though, so we'd have to find an American historian too!
If you want to get really confused have a look at this, and the NASCAR section of the same site!
www.sportsfacts.net/history/motor_racing/indycar/indianapolis_500/indy_500_winners.html
Still put my money on Merc...
... sorry McNab, couldn't help myself... 
Bodo said:
The most victorious race car is the Ferrari 250GTO IIRC
depends on your field of reference. GT racing possibly (though I think the even more gorgeous 250LM runs it pretty close). I'm sure the single most successful racing car (according to my books) is the McLaren MP/44 F1 car, which would give the victory either to Ford or Honda (can't remember which one) engine-wise. Ford has built more winning engines than any other car company.
v8thunder said:
I'm sure the single most successful racing car (according to my books) is the McLaren MP/44 F1 car, which would give the victory either to Ford or Honda (can't remember which one) engine-wise. Ford has built more winning engines than any other car company.
The McLaren MP4/4 won the most races in a single F1 season 15/16 and was on course to win the 16th until Senna tripped over Schessler (sp?) back in 1988, I'm starting to feel old now. Powered by Honda too.
I'd cast a vote for Lotus being the most influential and I believe still the 3rd most succesful F1 constructor in terms of championships despite having been gone for 9 seasons.
Perhaps some more opinions could be found on the Nostalgia Forum of www.atlasf1.com
Good debate though.
Definitely Lotus as the most influential F1 team, they invented the rear engined F1 car, downforce with the skirt technology, bigger surface area tyres, aircraft aerodynamics and build qualities, they even raced F1 cars with jet turbine engines.
In terms of Le Mans, two names for me, Ferrari and Ford. Ford because they couldn't buy Ferrari and Caroll Shelby came up trumps with the Cobra and the GT40 just for the hell of it. Even Rover-BRM deserve a mention, first ever jet turbine cars to race in the world and finished 8th and 10th and first in class !!!
Early days, Auto Union, now Mercedes revolutionised racing.
As for rallying, two cars, the John Cooper Works Mini in the Monte Carlo and the Audi Quattro in modern rallying we now today with an honourary mention for the Metro 6R4 because it was a mental car developed for practically pennies.
As for drivers, the best driver ever for me is still Fangio with 6 titles in I think only 8 seasons. There are many others. Stirling Moss for his ability to drive anything and race it including his impressive Mille win. Jackie Stewart for his silky driving skills and also his passion for safety in F1. Finally, Ayrton Senna, the gentleman of the track and for me, the greatest driver I've ever seen. Him, Prost and Mansell racing on a Sunday afternoon makes modern F1 looks like a girl guide jamboree.
Porsche really don't come into it.
>> Edited by Rovertron on Friday 17th October 09:21
In terms of Le Mans, two names for me, Ferrari and Ford. Ford because they couldn't buy Ferrari and Caroll Shelby came up trumps with the Cobra and the GT40 just for the hell of it. Even Rover-BRM deserve a mention, first ever jet turbine cars to race in the world and finished 8th and 10th and first in class !!!
Early days, Auto Union, now Mercedes revolutionised racing.
As for rallying, two cars, the John Cooper Works Mini in the Monte Carlo and the Audi Quattro in modern rallying we now today with an honourary mention for the Metro 6R4 because it was a mental car developed for practically pennies.
As for drivers, the best driver ever for me is still Fangio with 6 titles in I think only 8 seasons. There are many others. Stirling Moss for his ability to drive anything and race it including his impressive Mille win. Jackie Stewart for his silky driving skills and also his passion for safety in F1. Finally, Ayrton Senna, the gentleman of the track and for me, the greatest driver I've ever seen. Him, Prost and Mansell racing on a Sunday afternoon makes modern F1 looks like a girl guide jamboree.
Porsche really don't come into it.
>> Edited by Rovertron on Friday 17th October 09:21
Rovertron said:As much as I love Lotus, I think that was Cooper
Definitely Lotus as the most influential F1 team, they invented the rear engined F1 car,
Rovertron said:
As for drivers, the best driver ever for me is still Fangio with 6 titles in I think only 8 seasons.
Finally, Ayrton Senna, the gentleman of the track and for me, the greatest driver I've ever seen. Him, Prost and Mansell racing on a Sunday afternoon makes modern F1 looks like a girl guide jamboree.
I think Fangio had 5 titles, but I'm with you on the 1980's in F1, definately the best era for me. Bring back turbos, slicks and interesting drivers (well ok Mansell was only interesting in the car!)
Apologies for being a pedant, I'll crawl back into my
peetbee said:
Rovertron said:
Definitely Lotus as the most influential F1 team, they invented the rear engined F1 car,
As much as I love Lotus, I think that was Cooper
:
That depends, if you include all Grand Prix cars then you have to go back to the 1937 Auto Union. Lotus in fact were quite reluctant to move to rear engined cars and stuck to their Mini-Vanwall with its 'queerbox' long after Jonh Cooper's writing was well and truely on the wall.The first grown up racer introduced by Cooper was of course the front engined Cooper Bristol, he considered the engine too big to mount in the back and lacked a suitable gear box, so front engined it was.
We should not forget that Alfa produced a rear engined GP car, Tipo 512, in 1940, the 1949 Cisitalia was both rear engined and four wheel drive and featured Chapmans much loved parallel link rear suspension, the 1956 Bugatti Type 251 featured a transverse engine, nothing it seems is new under the sun.
Incidently the supposed link between modern Audi and Auto Union is more than a little shakey. Audi, Wanderer and Horch were victims of WW2. Auto Union/DKW survived with their little 3 cylinder 2 stroke until that died. Audi was a defunct name chosen by the VW group to badge an 'upmarket' brand they introduced to broaden their market range, its a bit like the reintroduced Invicta brand, a fine name but in reality an entirely new make.
My nomination for the greatest number of race victories goes to the Lotus/Caterham 7, its been clearing up every weekend since the 1950s.
>> Edited by gnomesmith on Thursday 23 October 13:28
zumbruk said:
Porsche.
There cannot be any debate.
Their F1 attempt was risable.
Do we need a best? In '88 McLaren were, indeed, the best and had Mansell been fit enough to drive in the Italian GP they would have won all 16. But they are not now. That doesn't make their achievements any the less.
Ferrari have a great record in F1 but they had years where they were dreadful. Their sports cars were very successful but then they gave up when it became difficult.
Lotus were the first team to use undercar aerodynamics but it was left to other teams to perfect it.
There is for and against every manufacturer. If you are a fan you remember the good times. Tyrell without the times he added lead to the petrol, Brabham without the heap of rubbish that the name was applied to at the end (or the BT54 which was given the delightful title of 'Tomorrow's technology - tomorrow' and Ferrari without their perennial appeals.
There is no 'best' but there are some great cars.
dont know about that Bodo me old fruit , shirly one of the Porsche 962 types would be Gassing Station | Motoring News | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff