Has Boris gone PC?

[s2art]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7760372.stm

[Strangely Brown]

Speaking of his People Carrier Boris said:

I intend to keep it on the road for another year, for two years, for three years - for however long it takes the car manufacturers to
produce a zero emission electric family car.

Zero emissions eh? Does he not realise there is no such thing? Where does he think the electrickery comes from that charges the bloody thing up?

[ewenm]

Sensible stuff for a city living person.

[elster]

No he wants something that will do the job properly and is electric.

Wont be anything for years, so I don't think there is much of a worry.

Is a good way to get his greenies on side, when really he isn't doing anything.

[OJ]

Strangely Brown said:

Speaking of his People Carrier Boris said:

I intend to keep it on the road for another year, for two years, for three years - for however long it takes the car manufacturers to
produce a zero emission electric family car.

Zero emissions eh? Does he not realise there is no such thing? Where does he think the electrickery comes from that charges the bloody thing up?

Power stations that aren't located in heavily populated, high pollution areas like london. There is a good case for electric vehicles in urban areas

[FourWheelDrift]

BBC said:

"Mr Johnson said: "My Toyota people mover is so old and tired that if it were a dog, you would have it put down. "I intend to keep it on the road for another year, for two years, for three years - for however long it takes the car manufacturers to produce a zero emission electric family car. "

In other words he's not going to drive one of the current boring piles of crap until they make something interesting, worthwhile and actually does what it's supposed to do without running out of power every 2hrs. For Central London that does make sense.

[s2art]

ewenm said:

Sensible stuff for a city living person.

But do the math. How many power stations would it take to charge up (say) 5 million cars every day? (5 million is just a guess at the number of cars in London). How would all the cars in London get to a charger? Where is the infrastructure (heavy duty electricity supply) to do this? etc.

[Zod]

it's a combination of his admitting to himself that he's a crap driver and pragmatic (I'd say cynical if he were a leftie) pandering to the green lobby.

[s2art]

OJ said:

Strangely Brown said:

Speaking of his People Carrier Boris said:

I intend to keep it on the road for another year, for two years, for three years - for however long it takes the car manufacturers to
produce a zero emission electric family car.

Zero emissions eh? Does he not realise there is no such thing? Where does he think the electrickery comes from that charges the bloody thing up?

Power stations that aren't located in heavily populated, high pollution areas like london. There is a good case for electric vehicles in urban areas

Even with modern cars producing bugger all polution? Its the trucks, buses and diesel taxis churning out the nasties.

[sjg]

In his own words:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/environment/35...

Worth noting that he has four kids - and afaik no-one even makes a hybrid 6/7 seater yet.

[OJ]

s2art said:

Even with modern cars producing bugger all polution? Its the trucks, buses and diesel taxis churning out the nasties.

Modern cars might produce not a lot of particulates and NOx, but they still produce some, particularly when they're operating in modes of low efficiency, which tends to be low speed, stop start scenarios. Compound with massive traffic density and you still have a fairly poor air quality. London is much better than it used to be but it's still not fantastic

Dirty trucks are now pretty much prohibited from london, the rest, along with all the Buses and newly built TX4 taxis (the 4 stands for Euro 4), have all been upgraded to meet the same Euro 4 emissions standards as all modern cars. That's what all that 'low emmission zone' signage is about.

Electric vehicles offer excellent efficiency all through their speed range and some are capable of harvesting a significant amount of braking energy. Their drivelines are likely to be at least 4 times as efficient as most cars are around town. Overall that's a significant drop in emmissions, even with coal fired power, and a total elimination of urban emmissions.

Edited by OJ on Tuesday 2nd December 14:45

[s2art]

OJ said:

s2art said:

Power stations that aren't located in heavily populated, high pollution areas like london. There is a good case for electric vehicles in urban areas

Even with modern cars producing bugger all polution? Its the trucks, buses and diesel taxis churning out the nasties.

Modern cars might produce not a lot of particulates and NOx, but they still produce some, particularly when they're operating in modes of low efficiency, which tends to be low speed, stop start scenarios. Compound with massive traffic density and you still have a fairly poor air quality. London is much better than it used to be but it's still not fantastic

Dirty trucks are now pretty much prohibited from london, the rest, along with all the Buses and newly built TX4 taxis (the 4 stands for Euro 4), have all been upgraded to meet the same Euro 4 emissions standards as all modern cars. That's what all that 'low emmission zone' signage is about.

Last time I saw anything on this was Clarkson demonstrating that a Porsche turbo was putting cleaner air out through its exhaust than the air being inducted. I note that Oxford has more bad pollution alerts now than before they banned cars from the centre.

[Strangely Brown]

OJ said:

Strangely Brown said:

Speaking of his People Carrier Boris said:

I intend to keep it on the road for another year, for two years, for three years - for however long it takes the car manufacturers to
produce a zero emission electric family car.

Zero emissions eh? Does he not realise there is no such thing? Where does he think the electrickery comes from that charges the bloody thing up?

Power stations that aren't located in heavily populated, high pollution areas like london. There is a good case for electric vehicles in urban areas

I wasn't questioning the wisdom of electric city-cars. I was stating that there is no such thing as a zero-emission electric family car (yet). It has to be charged from somewhere.

Edited by Strangely Brown on Tuesday 2nd December 14:47

[ewenm]

s2art said:

ewenm said:

Sensible stuff for a city living person.

But do the math. How many power stations would it take to charge up (say) 5 million cars every day? (5 million is just a guess at the number of cars in London). How would all the cars in London get to a charger? Where is the infrastructure (heavy duty electricity supply) to do this? etc.

MathS! The word is mathematicS.

Of course it would require investment in infrastructure, hence why Johnson's comments are relevant - he says in "years" not tomorrow. How did we move from horse & cart to petrol? By investing in infrastructure (private and public). If we are to move to alternative fuels at ANY time in the future, then that will need to happen. It's another reason we need to invest in nuclear asap.

[OJ]

s2art said:

Last time I saw anything on this was Clarkson demonstrating that a Porsche turbo was putting cleaner air out through its exhaust than the air being inducted. I note that Oxford has more bad pollution alerts now than before they banned cars from the centre.

That only really applies to really nasty places like Shanghai or L.A. Turbo cars also tend to be exceptionally clean. Why Oxford would have more bad pollution alerts now is beyond me, although I'd hazard a guess that it's because all their buses aren't fitted with all the emmissions gear the TfL ones have

[s2art]

OJ said:

s2art said:

Even with modern cars producing bugger all polution? Its the trucks, buses and diesel taxis churning out the nasties.

Modern cars might produce not a lot of particulates and NOx, but they still produce some, particularly when they're operating in modes of low efficiency, which tends to be low speed, stop start scenarios. Compound with massive traffic density and you still have a fairly poor air quality. London is much better than it used to be but it's still not fantastic

Dirty trucks are now pretty much prohibited from london, the rest, along with all the Buses and newly built TX4 taxis (the 4 stands for Euro 4), have all been upgraded to meet the same Euro 4 emissions standards as all modern cars. That's what all that 'low emmission zone' signage is about.

Electric vehicles offer excellent efficiency all through their speed range and some are capable of harvesting a significant amount of braking energy. Their drivelines are likely to be at least 4 times as efficient as most cars are around town. Overall that's a significant drop in emmissions, even with coal fired power, and a total elimination of urban emmissions.

Edited by OJ on Tuesday 2nd December 14:45

Not really. You have to factor in the efficiency of charging the vehicles. There are transmission losses as well. Assuming normal power station efficiencies the total efficiency is about 30-35%. Now add in the charging losses. Total efficiency is little or no better than a petrol car and probably worse than a modern diesel. So it doesnt work for fossil fuel power plants.

[s2art]

ewenm said:

s2art said:

ewenm said:

Sensible stuff for a city living person.

But do the math. How many power stations would it take to charge up (say) 5 million cars every day? (5 million is just a guess at the number of cars in London). How would all the cars in London get to a charger? Where is the infrastructure (heavy duty electricity supply) to do this? etc.

MathS! The word is mathematicS.

Of course it would require investment in infrastructure, hence why Johnson's comments are relevant - he says in "years" not tomorrow. How did we move from horse & cart to petrol? By investing in infrastructure (private and public). If we are to move to alternative fuels at ANY time in the future, then that will need to happen. It's another reason we need to invest in nuclear asap.

And how long will it take to build all those extra power stations? His people carrier will be only a faint memory by the time they arrive.

[OJ]

Strangely Brown said:

I wasn't questioning the wisdom of electric city-cars. I was stating that there is no such thing as a zero-emission electric family car (yet). It has to be charged from somewhere.

The electric car itself has no emmissions, therefore in my book it is a zero emmissions car. One doesn't take into account the power consumption required to refine crude oil into petrol and the costs to ship it around the country when calculating gCO2/km figures, why should the electric vehicle be any different? The onus is then on the supplier to improve things, rather than the motorist, which is the way it should be IMO

If in your book the power station IS part of the car, then it might not be Zero emmissions, but it's still a massive, massive drop in CO2 emmissions

[s2art]

OJ said:

Strangely Brown said:

I wasn't questioning the wisdom of electric city-cars. I was stating that there is no such thing as a zero-emission electric family car (yet). It has to be charged from somewhere.

The electric car itself has no emmissions, therefore in my book it is a zero emmissions car. One doesn't take into account the power consumption required to refine crude oil into petrol and the costs to ship it around the country when calculating gCO2/km figures, why should the electric vehicle be any different? The onus is then on the supplier to improve things, rather than the motorist, which is the way it should be IMO

If in your book the power station IS part of the car, then it might not be Zero emmissions, but it's still a massive, massive drop in CO2 emmissions

Cant see it. Efficiencies look similar. Modern diesel cars are probably better.

[Neil_H]

There's nothing wrong with electric cars for A to B city drivers.