OUTRIGHT GTR PERFORMANCE
Discussion
Hi all,
I've recently returned to the performance car world after a few years racing bikes and to be honest after looking around there seems to be nothing that comes close to the performance of the GTR. I've been trawling various build sites and studying this forum like a hawk and am desperate to build a high power ultima.
However there is a thought in my mind that maybe the GTR might not be the best route to take for my quest in outright fast street/track driving. My vision of the perfect car needs the following attributes in no particular order:
- Must be able to crack 200mph.
- 1/4 mile in the low 10's or quicker (litre bike territory)
- Need to do 10,000 miles without re-build (LS7 as appose to SBC maybe???)
- Handle like a race car on and off track.
- Capable of driving to and from a circuit.
- Accelerate on the road quicker than all standard road bikes. (love to out accelerate road riders who think they are the quickest thing on the road.)
I dont think this is too much to ask for but have a few options that im thinking about but always come back to the ultima. options that i keep considering are.
- High power evo / skyline / supra
- Audi/elise
- Honda turbo elise.
My BIGGEST concern after watching loads of video clips on you tube is the point to point ability of the ULTIMA GTR. I know it holds loads of world records but do you need to be the stig to get that performance from it? It seems that with all that power and torque it becomes dificult to get good traction hence slower lap times. If the factory GTR 720 is such a rocket and excellent handling car then why dont we see it go in the TIME ATTACk series and kick some japanese arse. There are bigger power Ultimas out there than the factory 720 but nobody seems to bother taking them and putting them up against the best of the countrys tuned cars. Is it because the average GTR owner is a little bit older and is not into that sort of thing???? (luckyP exempt)
Please feel free to knock me down, but i am only after some advise from like minded people that know what performance is all about.
Thanks .
Johnny B
-
I've recently returned to the performance car world after a few years racing bikes and to be honest after looking around there seems to be nothing that comes close to the performance of the GTR. I've been trawling various build sites and studying this forum like a hawk and am desperate to build a high power ultima.
However there is a thought in my mind that maybe the GTR might not be the best route to take for my quest in outright fast street/track driving. My vision of the perfect car needs the following attributes in no particular order:
- Must be able to crack 200mph.
- 1/4 mile in the low 10's or quicker (litre bike territory)
- Need to do 10,000 miles without re-build (LS7 as appose to SBC maybe???)
- Handle like a race car on and off track.
- Capable of driving to and from a circuit.
- Accelerate on the road quicker than all standard road bikes. (love to out accelerate road riders who think they are the quickest thing on the road.)
I dont think this is too much to ask for but have a few options that im thinking about but always come back to the ultima. options that i keep considering are.
- High power evo / skyline / supra
- Audi/elise
- Honda turbo elise.
My BIGGEST concern after watching loads of video clips on you tube is the point to point ability of the ULTIMA GTR. I know it holds loads of world records but do you need to be the stig to get that performance from it? It seems that with all that power and torque it becomes dificult to get good traction hence slower lap times. If the factory GTR 720 is such a rocket and excellent handling car then why dont we see it go in the TIME ATTACk series and kick some japanese arse. There are bigger power Ultimas out there than the factory 720 but nobody seems to bother taking them and putting them up against the best of the countrys tuned cars. Is it because the average GTR owner is a little bit older and is not into that sort of thing???? (luckyP exempt)
Please feel free to knock me down, but i am only after some advise from like minded people that know what performance is all about.
Thanks .
Johnny B
-
Johnny,
As a bike rider, racer and 2x Ultima builder, here's my 2p:
- Must be able to crack 200mph - do-able, but harder than you think in terms of enough power and gearing to do it
- 1/4 mile in the low 10's or quicker (litre bike territory) - again, do-able, but making a drag car may compromise it for other things, like twisty track use
- Need to do 10,000 miles without re-build (LS7 as appose to SBC maybe???) - do-able. But the higher the performance, the more (relatively) fragile the engine. I'd go LS in this regard over the SBC simply because the EFI is probably more versatile for tuning.
- Handle like a race car on and off track. - well, some race cars handle like cack and would be terrible on the road! However, yes, if you're coming from where I think you are
- Capable of driving to and from a circuit. - definitely
- Accelerate on the road quicker than all standard road bikes. (love to out accelerate road riders who think they are the quickest thing on the road.) - do-able. Whilst I've had several 'sports' bikes (R1 etc.), the Ultima can defintely give them a surprise - especially as the mph figures rise as the Ult is better aerodynamically (and as you know, you feel like the wind is trying to tear your head off once you get well into 3 figures on a bike)
- High power evo / skyline / supra - good for a drag car, but will require monster tuning and will therefore be monster fragile. Aerodynamically poor and dynamics on track nowhere near as good as they're heavy (relatively) too
- Audi/elise - again, you need to tune the nuts off them. Elise will run out of puff - no idea what Audi you would use short of an R8? See my vids for relative performance of Ultimas (GTR and Can-Am) vs. Elise/Caterham etc.etc. - it dusted them all (even a 400hp Can-Am)
- Honda turbo elise - fast, but fragile.
For point to point, you will be pushed to beat something like a Caterham - but there's the compromise. Light weight, means it will out corner the Ultima, but you'll lose out on top speed (unless you buy something like Caparo T1 which is a) damned expensive and b) very fragile!)
Budget of course comes into play too - how much do you want to spend?
There are a myriad of variables here, depending on what's more important to you.
For example, park an Ultima in a street filled with any of the cars you cite as alternatives and onlookers will flock to the Ultima.
Take an Ultima to a drag strip and it 'may' beat a 1000hp Skyline - or it may not. But the Skyline will be crap for anything other than 1/4 mile runs
Take an Ultima to a circuit and it will be quicker than most cars there. Then again, get someone who's handy behind a wheel and give them an 85bhp Caterham (or Ariel Atom etc) and the Ultima will struggle to beat it. The Ult will demolish it on the straights, but the flyweights will be up it's chuff in the corners.
Simply put, as a high performance (as in horsepower, speed, handling) car, the Ultima is very hard to beat as a 'package'. You can make it better (or worse) for track or road depending on what you want to use it for - but doing one, will affect the other.
It's all about compromise!
As a bike rider, racer and 2x Ultima builder, here's my 2p:
- Must be able to crack 200mph - do-able, but harder than you think in terms of enough power and gearing to do it
- 1/4 mile in the low 10's or quicker (litre bike territory) - again, do-able, but making a drag car may compromise it for other things, like twisty track use
- Need to do 10,000 miles without re-build (LS7 as appose to SBC maybe???) - do-able. But the higher the performance, the more (relatively) fragile the engine. I'd go LS in this regard over the SBC simply because the EFI is probably more versatile for tuning.
- Handle like a race car on and off track. - well, some race cars handle like cack and would be terrible on the road! However, yes, if you're coming from where I think you are
- Capable of driving to and from a circuit. - definitely
- Accelerate on the road quicker than all standard road bikes. (love to out accelerate road riders who think they are the quickest thing on the road.) - do-able. Whilst I've had several 'sports' bikes (R1 etc.), the Ultima can defintely give them a surprise - especially as the mph figures rise as the Ult is better aerodynamically (and as you know, you feel like the wind is trying to tear your head off once you get well into 3 figures on a bike)
- High power evo / skyline / supra - good for a drag car, but will require monster tuning and will therefore be monster fragile. Aerodynamically poor and dynamics on track nowhere near as good as they're heavy (relatively) too
- Audi/elise - again, you need to tune the nuts off them. Elise will run out of puff - no idea what Audi you would use short of an R8? See my vids for relative performance of Ultimas (GTR and Can-Am) vs. Elise/Caterham etc.etc. - it dusted them all (even a 400hp Can-Am)
- Honda turbo elise - fast, but fragile.
For point to point, you will be pushed to beat something like a Caterham - but there's the compromise. Light weight, means it will out corner the Ultima, but you'll lose out on top speed (unless you buy something like Caparo T1 which is a) damned expensive and b) very fragile!)
Budget of course comes into play too - how much do you want to spend?
There are a myriad of variables here, depending on what's more important to you.
For example, park an Ultima in a street filled with any of the cars you cite as alternatives and onlookers will flock to the Ultima.
Take an Ultima to a drag strip and it 'may' beat a 1000hp Skyline - or it may not. But the Skyline will be crap for anything other than 1/4 mile runs
Take an Ultima to a circuit and it will be quicker than most cars there. Then again, get someone who's handy behind a wheel and give them an 85bhp Caterham (or Ariel Atom etc) and the Ultima will struggle to beat it. The Ult will demolish it on the straights, but the flyweights will be up it's chuff in the corners.
Simply put, as a high performance (as in horsepower, speed, handling) car, the Ultima is very hard to beat as a 'package'. You can make it better (or worse) for track or road depending on what you want to use it for - but doing one, will affect the other.
It's all about compromise!
Why aren't Ultimas in Time Attack? Why would they be, there's no need or point, just as there are no high end Porsches and the like. Different market I think.
What Stig has said is generally true, not sure about the Elise/Exige fragile comments though. Scuffers will surely be in a better position to comment. I think it's probably fair to say if you spent the same modding an Elise as you would on buying an Ultima, you'd have a very very quick track tool, that shouldn't be unreliable. Probably easier to use day to day than an Ultima too.
Best value overall engine package for power and reliability has got to be an Ls3 twin turbo I'd have thought. Fairly reliable 650hp?
What Stig has said is generally true, not sure about the Elise/Exige fragile comments though. Scuffers will surely be in a better position to comment. I think it's probably fair to say if you spent the same modding an Elise as you would on buying an Ultima, you'd have a very very quick track tool, that shouldn't be unreliable. Probably easier to use day to day than an Ultima too.
Best value overall engine package for power and reliability has got to be an Ls3 twin turbo I'd have thought. Fairly reliable 650hp?
- Must be able to crack 200mph.
This is achievable with a reasonably high spec engine and right transaxle but you will still need a good strip of road. Shame ‘Fighting Torque’ weren’t able to measure over a mile this year as that would have given a good indication how close a couple of the cars were.
- 1/4 mile in the low 10's or quicker (litre bike territory)
Example of the Ultima running a 9.941 at Santa Pod on Ultima website
- Need to do 10,000 miles without re-build (LS7 as appose to SBC maybe???)
Don’ t see why you should not be able to do this – many on here have – much may depend on the tuning level and as you suggest LS may be a better option.
- Handle like a race car on and off track.
You have to compromise here with any car – stiffer springs help on track but aren’t ideal for road. It only takes about 20 mins to swap these out at the trackside though.
- Capable of driving to and from a circuit.
This goes without saying for most Owners and all the factory record attempts.
- Accelerate on the road quicker than all standard road bikes.
I never found any problem shocking bikers.
“It seems that with all that power and torque it becomes difficult to get good traction hence slower lap times” - sorry but that is just an excuse for someone who gets it wrong. The Ultima has amazing traction especially with track biased tyres such as the Kumho but any body with a heavy right foot and no feeling will spin up the tyres (I have got it wrong a few times but you soon get a feel for the grip levels). It is the torque of these bigger engines that make the Ultima easy to drive.
http://www.pistonheadstv.com/videos/1187.mpg
Sounds like your looking at a relatively high spec. The good thing for me is that a relatively low spec Ultima should ensure reliability (similar to mine at 311 rwhp) and can still compete against highly tuned Honda/Audi supercharged Elise and similar.
You can go fast in an Ultima without pushing it and get enjoyment but I believe that on a leisurely yet fast drive it is easier to be complacent and therefore get caught out by little things such as spinning the rear wheels. On the other hand if you push hard you are likely to have a much higher concentration level and feel for the car and as such are prepared for most events – the rewards can be huge and the car is relatively easy to drive on the limits even for a novice like me.
All Ultimas are quick – but the biggest variant in an Ultima and the thing that really decides how quick it gets off the line or how fast it gets round the bend is the Driver not the Engine.
This is achievable with a reasonably high spec engine and right transaxle but you will still need a good strip of road. Shame ‘Fighting Torque’ weren’t able to measure over a mile this year as that would have given a good indication how close a couple of the cars were.
- 1/4 mile in the low 10's or quicker (litre bike territory)
Example of the Ultima running a 9.941 at Santa Pod on Ultima website
- Need to do 10,000 miles without re-build (LS7 as appose to SBC maybe???)
Don’ t see why you should not be able to do this – many on here have – much may depend on the tuning level and as you suggest LS may be a better option.
- Handle like a race car on and off track.
You have to compromise here with any car – stiffer springs help on track but aren’t ideal for road. It only takes about 20 mins to swap these out at the trackside though.
- Capable of driving to and from a circuit.
This goes without saying for most Owners and all the factory record attempts.
- Accelerate on the road quicker than all standard road bikes.
I never found any problem shocking bikers.
“It seems that with all that power and torque it becomes difficult to get good traction hence slower lap times” - sorry but that is just an excuse for someone who gets it wrong. The Ultima has amazing traction especially with track biased tyres such as the Kumho but any body with a heavy right foot and no feeling will spin up the tyres (I have got it wrong a few times but you soon get a feel for the grip levels). It is the torque of these bigger engines that make the Ultima easy to drive.
http://www.pistonheadstv.com/videos/1187.mpg
Sounds like your looking at a relatively high spec. The good thing for me is that a relatively low spec Ultima should ensure reliability (similar to mine at 311 rwhp) and can still compete against highly tuned Honda/Audi supercharged Elise and similar.
You can go fast in an Ultima without pushing it and get enjoyment but I believe that on a leisurely yet fast drive it is easier to be complacent and therefore get caught out by little things such as spinning the rear wheels. On the other hand if you push hard you are likely to have a much higher concentration level and feel for the car and as such are prepared for most events – the rewards can be huge and the car is relatively easy to drive on the limits even for a novice like me.
All Ultimas are quick – but the biggest variant in an Ultima and the thing that really decides how quick it gets off the line or how fast it gets round the bend is the Driver not the Engine.
Edited by Chewy on Thursday 4th December 12:51
I totally agree with Stig's comment on compromise. Yes the Ultima will do all you crave but its not 100% at all. I have driven a Canam nearly 20,000 miles and is it a comfortable long distance cruiser no!. I have done many track days and driven to and from every one (except one mainly my own doing). Will it out run everything on the track, with me at the wheel no, but it is more than capable of passing most supercars. It has been great fun to receive complaints from organisers about drivers who having spent 2-3 times the cost of an Ultima on their P&J, to see one one sail past them on a track.
What I have learnt over the years is supercar performance comes at a price, if you start using them then bits wear or break, on track the lighter the car the less the wear and tear. I have however met many non Ultima Supercar owners who constanly have issues with reliability. The point being how much does it cost to run one of these machines. Road use, not so much, on track the harder you push the more it costs. This maybe not true with some of the Porsches.
The absolute answer is not to mix track with road, if you must then the Ultima should be fairly high up your list.
What I have learnt over the years is supercar performance comes at a price, if you start using them then bits wear or break, on track the lighter the car the less the wear and tear. I have however met many non Ultima Supercar owners who constanly have issues with reliability. The point being how much does it cost to run one of these machines. Road use, not so much, on track the harder you push the more it costs. This maybe not true with some of the Porsches.
The absolute answer is not to mix track with road, if you must then the Ultima should be fairly high up your list.
deadscoob said:
What Stig has said is generally true, not sure about the Elise/Exige fragile comments though. Scuffers will surely be in a better position to comment. I think it's probably fair to say if you spent the same modding an Elise as you would on buying an Ultima, you'd have a very very quick track tool, that shouldn't be unreliable. Probably easier to use day to day than an Ultima too.
To qualify my Elise/fragile comments, I meant in the same way as any tuned vehcile is more prone to wear/tear/failure. The more you rag it, the more likely it is to break 
You're probably right about the money thing too. Though I'd have the Ultima over one for the same outlay!
Personally speaking, I rate both the Elise and the Exige very highly, as I would Caterham/Ariel etc.etc.etc.
Everything is great at something, but nothing (IMHO) is great at everything.
As a car enthusiast, i had the chance to own many super cars (Ferrari, Lambo, Maserati,...)
I'm also the lucky owner of a CSR 260 and a 996 GT2 (643 hp) and i'm officially racing with
them. So I can compare my lap times with my Ultima.
For example, last race on HTTT with the CSR 260 (and slicks): 2'22'' (finished 2nd).
Last race on HTTT with the GT2 (Toyo R888) : 2'25'' (finished 1st).
Last track day with the Ultima on HTTT (Toyo R888) : 2'26''.
Don't forget you win 1.2sec/km with slicks on this fast track.
And after checking the Ultima on the bench, my SBC from AS deemed to be 540 hp was 406 hp...
My feelings behind the wheel are that the Ultima has a great potential (I'm on the way for
a 650 hp LS7 - am i not GulfLS7 ?) and the CSR cannot be used on the road.
Definitely it's a great car if improved on some points. Despite I've been overtaken...by a F1 !
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7jzqh_httt-paul-...
I'm also the lucky owner of a CSR 260 and a 996 GT2 (643 hp) and i'm officially racing with
them. So I can compare my lap times with my Ultima.
For example, last race on HTTT with the CSR 260 (and slicks): 2'22'' (finished 2nd).
Last race on HTTT with the GT2 (Toyo R888) : 2'25'' (finished 1st).
Last track day with the Ultima on HTTT (Toyo R888) : 2'26''.
Don't forget you win 1.2sec/km with slicks on this fast track.
And after checking the Ultima on the bench, my SBC from AS deemed to be 540 hp was 406 hp...
My feelings behind the wheel are that the Ultima has a great potential (I'm on the way for
a 650 hp LS7 - am i not GulfLS7 ?) and the CSR cannot be used on the road.
Definitely it's a great car if improved on some points. Despite I've been overtaken...by a F1 !
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7jzqh_httt-paul-...
Edited by budala on Thursday 4th December 16:57
Edited by budala on Thursday 4th December 16:58
budala said:
As a car enthusiast, i had the chance to own many super cars (Ferrari, Lambo, Maserati,...)
I'm also the lucky owner of a CSR 260 and a 996 GT2 (643 hp) and i'm officially racing with
them. So I can compare my lap times with my Ultima.
For example, last race on HTTT with the CSR 260 (and slicks): 2'22'' (finished 2nd).
Last race on HTTT with the GT2 (Toyo R888) : 2'25'' (finished 1st).
Last track day with the Ultima on HTTT (Toyo R888) : 2'26''.
Don't forget you win 1.2sec/km with slicks on this fast track.
And after checking the Ultima on the bench, my SBC from AS deemed to be 540 hp was 406 hp...
My feelings behind the wheel are that the Ultima has a great potential (I'm on the way for
a 650 hp LS7 - am i not GulfLS7 ?) and the CSR cannot be used on the road.
Definitely it's a great car if improved on some points. Despite I've been overtaken...by a F1 !
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7jzqh_httt-paul-...
some nice cars there you lucky manI'm also the lucky owner of a CSR 260 and a 996 GT2 (643 hp) and i'm officially racing with
them. So I can compare my lap times with my Ultima.
For example, last race on HTTT with the CSR 260 (and slicks): 2'22'' (finished 2nd).
Last race on HTTT with the GT2 (Toyo R888) : 2'25'' (finished 1st).
Last track day with the Ultima on HTTT (Toyo R888) : 2'26''.
Don't forget you win 1.2sec/km with slicks on this fast track.
And after checking the Ultima on the bench, my SBC from AS deemed to be 540 hp was 406 hp...
My feelings behind the wheel are that the Ultima has a great potential (I'm on the way for
a 650 hp LS7 - am i not GulfLS7 ?) and the CSR cannot be used on the road.
Definitely it's a great car if improved on some points. Despite I've been overtaken...by a F1 !
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7jzqh_httt-paul-...
Edited by budala on Thursday 4th December 16:57
Edited by budala on Thursday 4th December 16:58
I agree with what Stig has said, what you are wanting you can get with a good spec LS7 powered Ultima IMO.
It wont be cheap because you will need to spec fairly carefully to get a sub 11's quarter mile car, but if you tune an LS7 to 650bhp and CAREFULLY spec your gearbox then these quarters will definatelly be acheivable along with 200mph.
I had a 500bhp SBC powered Ultima and could do quarters in 11.4's and it was capable of well over 200mph (could never reach it legally anywere in the UK tho) and that was all with setup for track handling rather than drag strip.... Also Im hardly a driving god but I did find the Ultima easy to drive both on and off the track and it suited both brilliently IMO.
It wont be cheap because you will need to spec fairly carefully to get a sub 11's quarter mile car, but if you tune an LS7 to 650bhp and CAREFULLY spec your gearbox then these quarters will definatelly be acheivable along with 200mph.
I had a 500bhp SBC powered Ultima and could do quarters in 11.4's and it was capable of well over 200mph (could never reach it legally anywere in the UK tho) and that was all with setup for track handling rather than drag strip.... Also Im hardly a driving god but I did find the Ultima easy to drive both on and off the track and it suited both brilliently IMO.
andygtt said:
I agree with what Stig has said, what you are wanting you can get with a good spec LS7 powered Ultima IMO.
It wont be cheap because you will need to spec fairly carefully to get a sub 11's quarter mile car, but if you tune an LS7 to 650bhp and CAREFULLY spec your gearbox then these quarters will definatelly be acheivable along with 200mph.
I had a 500bhp SBC powered Ultima and could do quarters in 11.4's and it was capable of well over 200mph (could never reach it legally anywere in the UK tho) and that was all with setup for track handling rather than drag strip.... Also Im hardly a driving god but I did find the Ultima easy to drive both on and off the track and it suited both brilliently IMO.
what ratios would you recommend in a 5 speed G50?It wont be cheap because you will need to spec fairly carefully to get a sub 11's quarter mile car, but if you tune an LS7 to 650bhp and CAREFULLY spec your gearbox then these quarters will definatelly be acheivable along with 200mph.
I had a 500bhp SBC powered Ultima and could do quarters in 11.4's and it was capable of well over 200mph (could never reach it legally anywere in the UK tho) and that was all with setup for track handling rather than drag strip.... Also Im hardly a driving god but I did find the Ultima easy to drive both on and off the track and it suited both brilliently IMO.
thanks Kyle
LuckyP said:
I'd buy a 996 GT2 for £50K.
200mph - yep
Reliable - yep
10 sec 1/4 - no, 11.high prob
to and from track - yes, and to SofF and to work and to shops.
was thinking along the same lines, just a 993 GT2.... (Personally rate these way above 996's)200mph - yep
Reliable - yep
10 sec 1/4 - no, 11.high prob
to and from track - yes, and to SofF and to work and to shops.
As for the Elise comments, 200Mph would take some doing, Aero is not their strong point.
Scuffers said:
LuckyP said:
I'd buy a 996 GT2 for £50K.
200mph - yep
Reliable - yep
10 sec 1/4 - no, 11.high prob
to and from track - yes, and to SofF and to work and to shops.
was thinking along the same lines, just a 993 GT2.... (Personally rate these way above 996's)....200mph - yep
Reliable - yep
10 sec 1/4 - no, 11.high prob
to and from track - yes, and to SofF and to work and to shops.
Whilst iconic an rawer, the 3GT is gonna set ya back a whole heap more.
LuckyP said:
Scuffers said:
LuckyP said:
I'd buy a 996 GT2 for £50K.
200mph - yep
Reliable - yep
10 sec 1/4 - no, 11.high prob
to and from track - yes, and to SofF and to work and to shops.
was thinking along the same lines, just a 993 GT2.... (Personally rate these way above 996's)....200mph - yep
Reliable - yep
10 sec 1/4 - no, 11.high prob
to and from track - yes, and to SofF and to work and to shops.
Whilst iconic an rawer, the 3GT is gonna set ya back a whole heap more.
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