Mandela (the early years) ?

[surfeit]

Over the years I've heard rumours he was less than sweetness & light,


so what were his good/bad points

[bigandclever]

There aren't "rumours"...

Sabotage, conspiracy to kill, fund raising for a terrorist organisation, treason (well, equivalent of it in SA), planned guerilla warfare, violated human rights (eg the Church Street Massacre), complicit in torture at ANC 're-education camps' in Angola, Uganda and Tanzania. And so on.

[DWP]

Read The Long Walk To Freedom, his autobiography, yes it's his words. But what comes over is an icy determination, on his part. He was as hard as nails. Just discover his time boxing. Then read any more recent interviews with his children and you'll find out they are not big fans. Hardly surprising, he spent 27 years in prison and then ran the country, not much time in his life for them. Like most large figures in history he was as heavy as he needed to be, when it was required. Otherwise he'd still be a struggling bloke working on the Reef in Jo'berg.

[Blue Meanie]

That gerry Adams is a lovely fellow as well, not to mention Martin McGuiness. Lovely fellows, who had a struggle and dealt with it. Bless them.

[Celt]

27 years in jail and never reoffended just goes to show the prison system works

Edited by Celt on Sunday 7th December 19:21

[FPC]

He was a leading figure in the ANC which at the time was involved in an armed struggle: bombings, sabotage etc. To be fair, he had tried for some time to bring an end to apartheid politically but had got nowhere. I get the impression that whatever the ANC did, it was overshadowed massively by atrocities committed by the SA governments of the day.

[minimatt1967]

I though that Winnie was the real nasty piece of work!

[mybrainhurts]

Ex wife Winnie was keeping up the family tradition a few years ago with a spot of kidnap and death by fire...

[surfeit]

The 'Winnie Mandela football team' (or thugs) were the bunch protecting her on our TV screens in the 90's

I knew nothing of NM beyond a possibly mis-guided popsong and his being used as a symbol of oppresion on his release

[Simpo Two]

He only approached 'sainthood' because the Western Left adopted him as their anti-racism underdog hero symbol. But as African leaders go I have to say he seems better than most!

[minimatt1967]

Simpo Two said:

But as African leaders go I have to say he seems better than most!

Not exactly difficult!

[blackburnbmw]

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, and vice versa.

[tinman0]

blackburnbmw said:

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, and vice versa.

And generally a left wing lie. Its a way of dehumanising the tragic consequences of murdering innocent people in the name of a bankrupt cause.

[elster]

He was a murdering scum bag!

All in the name of politics though. I mean we all love those Muslim terrorists that are blowing themselves up, as the current system isn't right. The IRA are still all loved after all the innocent people they killed as well.

Mugabe is only killing innocent people in the name of politics, as was Hitler.

(Maybe slight exaggeration, but you get the idea)

Edited by elster on Sunday 7th December 20:53

[Simpo Two]

tinman0 said:

blackburnbmw said:

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, and vice versa.

And generally a left wing lie. Its a way of dehumanising the tragic consequences of murdering innocent people in the name of a bankrupt cause.

Depends where you're standing. If you happened to be a soldier in the German army occupying France, you'd have considered the French Resistance to be terrorists. And yet from our (victorious) POV they were heroes.

[tinman0]

Simpo Two said:

Depends where you're standing. If you happened to be a soldier in the German army occupying France, you'd have considered the French Resistance to be terrorists. And yet from our (victorious) POV they were heroes.

cmon, do you really believe that? That a German army officer based in France legitimately believes that the French Resistance is a terrorist rather than the officer understanding that he's part of an invading army?

[Blue Meanie]

tinman0 said:

Simpo Two said:

Depends where you're standing. If you happened to be a soldier in the German army occupying France, you'd have considered the French Resistance to be terrorists. And yet from our (victorious) POV they were heroes.

cmon, do you really believe that? That a German army officer based in France legitimately believes that the French Resistance is a terrorist rather than the officer understanding that he's part of an invading army?

We consider the insurgency to be terrorist.

[Captain Cadillac]

Blue Meanie said:

tinman0 said:

Simpo Two said:

Depends where you're standing. If you happened to be a soldier in the German army occupying France, you'd have considered the French Resistance to be terrorists. And yet from our (victorious) POV they were heroes.

cmon, do you really believe that? That a German army officer based in France legitimately believes that the French Resistance is a terrorist rather than the officer understanding that he's part of an invading army?

We consider the insurgency to be terrorist.

Yes but said insurgency is not mainly Iraqi, most of the "insurgents" are Syrian, Saudi, Pakistani, Iranian, etc.

Cousin's back over in Iraq, he's an MP over there.

[Mannginger]

Captain Cadillac said:

Cousin's back over in Iraq, he's an MP over there.

Military MP or a member of the Parliament? If the latter that's quite interesting and it be great to understand his view point on life if possible