HELP HELP HELP - NIP Response required today!!

[upcreeknopaddle?]

Am starting to get rather worried that am right up sh*t creek and the paddles floating the other way if anyone can advise id be sooooo grateful cos i think im facing a ban otherwise.

I was sent an NIP on the 18/09/03 with details of time date & location of offence but no mention of how fast i was clocked at. it didnt say what method i was clocked with. I dont remember any flashes on the day in question.

I was originally told that recent case law had closed the loophole and that yorke&mawdesley now meant as the registered keeper i didnt have to sign the form for it to be considered a confession as the registered keeper. Somwewhat deflated i thought bollox ive no option but to fill in the form. I was just about to send it unsigned yesterday when i came across speedsafe and got the whole picture on the yorke compliancy.

my problem is that i have already filled in the form but not sent or signed it, so i cant get myself to be yorke compliant as i would have to change the form. does this leave me up the creek with no paddle?

is there anyway to avoid sending in the NIP today by sending something else or is there a way to get the NIP re-issued, eg sending in a unsigned photocopy as the original has been unavoidably destroyed/lost?

I spoke to Met's Central Driving Offences unit this morning to find out the logged speed. said id rec NIP for my car with no logged speed stated, she told me its 85 in a 40 so im potentially going to get hammered, answered no comment when she asked if i was driving.

what are the potential conseq of not answering the S172 notice in any capacity? can i still be prosecuted for the speeding offence? or is it just the S172? if it is just the s172 (because they dont have the evidence with which to proceed on the Speeding as there is no evidence as to driver ID) offence i will get hit for what is my max punishment?

any help hugely appreciated.

yours in panic & desperation!!

[outlaw]

[quote=upcreeknopaddle?]Am starting to get rather worried that am right up sh*t creek and the paddles floating the other way if anyone can advise id be sooooo grateful cos i think im facing a ban otherwise.

I was sent an NIP on the 18/09/03 with details of time date & location of offence but no mention of how fast i was clocked at. it didnt say what method i was clocked with. I dont remember any flashes on the day in question.

I was originally told that recent case law had closed the loophole and that yorke&mawdesley now meant as the registered keeper i didnt have to sign the form for it to be considered a confession as the registered keeper. Somwewhat deflated i thought bollox ive no option but to fill in the form. I was just about to send it unsigned yesterday when i came across speedsafe and got the whole picture on the yorke compliancy.

my problem is that i have already filled in the form but not sent or signed it, so i cant get myself to be yorke compliant as i would have to change the form. does this leave me up the creek with no paddle?

is there anyway to avoid sending in the NIP today by sending something else or is there a way to get the NIP re-issued, eg sending in a unsigned photocopy as the original has been unavoidably destroyed/lost?

I spoke to Met's Central Driving Offences unit this morning to find out the logged speed. said id rec NIP for my car with no logged speed stated, she told me its 85 in a 40 so im potentially going to get hammered, answered no comment when she asked if i was driving.

what are the potential conseq of not answering the S172 notice in any capacity? can i still be prosecuted for the speeding offence? or is it just the S172? if it is just the s172 (because they dont have the evidence with which to proceed on the Speeding as there is no evidence as to driver ID) offence i will get hit for what is my max punishment?

any help hugely appreciated.

yours in panic & desperation!!

[/quote]

the loop holes not closed they bullshit you.

fill it in quick and send it back UNSIGNED

dont sign it.

make shaw you send it by recorded post, thats very inportaint.

then do a search on herre for unsigned nips

you must get it back our there get you for s172 for not supplying the information.

[tonybav]

Yorke is something of a special case a signed NIP but not signed by the registered keeper but his representative. In this case his solicitor. You can just submit yours unsigned I have sent you a mail of the current position on unsigned NIP's, pre Yorke which as I say is a special case. A prosecution for speeding will not be successful unless the pictures identify you, mind you can be prosecuted for failure to identify the drive 172(3) RTA 1988, but that’s only 3 points and a big fine.

[outlaw]

read the safe speed site againg slowly this time m8.

and you will see its not closed at all It may have put em in a even bigger mess.

[upcreeknopaddle?]

thanks outlaw, ive already filled it in & its here ready to send unsigned, but the concern which sprang up when i read the judgement of york&mawdelsey on Safespeed it appeared to say that if it is filled in by my own hand, rather than an agents such as a solicitor or a spouse it amounts to a confession under PACE, so surely based on that it is likely that i would be found guilty of the offence & then would have to appeal against conviction on the basis of not receiving a caution?

[Plotloss]

If its unsigned, how would they know that you filled it in?

I'm confused...

[outlaw]

[quote=upcreeknopaddle?]thanks outlaw, ive already filled it in & its here ready to send unsigned, but the concern which sprang up when i read the judgement of york&mawdelsey on Safespeed it appeared to say that if it is filled in by my own hand, rather than an agents such as a solicitor or a spouse it amounts to a confession under PACE, so surely based on that it is likely that i would be found guilty of the offence & then would have to appeal against conviction on the basis of not receiving a caution?[/quote]

Yes that the point. Noone has been convited on them grounds sofar.

and there trying to keep it down.

If they bring it up, then still say no case to answer as its still inadmisable, as a confestion. I was not informed of my rights at the time.

do not at any time state you filled it in or take the stand.

you that they have recived the notice that complide with the law unsinged.

that where you proofe of post comes in.

If they ask you if you were driving just say the s172 has been legaly complied with.





the pace agument has not been tryed yet anywhere.

The cps just keep droping the cases.
In alot of places they dont even bother sending a summons and just give up.

or they just send out a Fixed fine notice as a last try and hope you dumb enoutgh to pay it.


peeps are still not signing them. all the time and getting away with it.

my personal view is I will allways fight it no mater what.

and that includes tell what hole to sick there fine up. Even if i am found guilty.

but what you do only you can decide.


>> Edited by outlaw on Tuesday 14th October 13:35

[mel]

I think Outlaw should set up a special PistonHeads NIP filling in service, not only would this mean that the Yorke case president could be applied, but we could bring the legal system to its knees with them all trying to translate

[206xsi]

mel said:

I think Outlaw should set up a special PistonHeads NIP filling in service, not only would this mean that the Yorke case president could be applied, but we could bring the legal system to its knees with them all trying to translate

Without wishing to appear to pick on Outlaw - that's a fantastic plan. I think it's already been discussed that you don't have to fill it in in English - however as 14 Station Road is 14 Station Road in most languages we'll have to resort to Greek or Cyrillic or something completely obscure?!

[outlaw]

LoL was just editing it.

but hey theres an idea. I, could make a nice earner out of it.

I would cost em a foutune ajerning all the cases while, I drive around the country. giveing evidence of filling in the nips.

of couse i wouldent come cheap
I demand the best of ever thing

[upcreeknopaddle?]

tonybav said:

Yorke is something of a special case a signed NIP but not signed by the registered keeper but his representative. In this case his solicitor. You can just submit yours unsigned I have sent you a mail of the current position on unsigned NIP's, pre Yorke which as I say is a special case. A prosecution for speeding will not be successful unless the pictures identify you, mind you can be prosecuted for failure to identify the drive 172(3) RTA 1988, but that’s only 3 points and a big fine.

thanks tonybav got your email. just phoned the driving offences unit again & established it was a mobile van unit with a rearward pic of the car so there cant be a positive id from that can there? my approach by the looks of things then is to send off the form unsigned & await the police bluff & bluster response, what then? write asking for an official caution as PACE entitles and then take my right to silence when offered?

[outlaw]

one note from what I know noone has ever been ID from a frount faceing pic to date as far as I know off.

sugesting there maybe legal problem for them there.

[jeffreyarcher]

upcreeknopaddle said:

my approach by the looks of things then is to send off the form unsigned & await the police bluff & bluster response, what then? write asking for an official caution as PACE entitles and then take my right to silence when offered?

Do not enter into further correspondence.
Reserve the PACE angle for the trial, it is as yet untested.

>> Edited by jeffreyarcher on Tuesday 14th October 14:00

[outlaw]

jeffreyarcher said:

[quote=upcreeknopaddle?]my approach by the looks of things then is to send off the form unsigned & await the police bluff & bluster response, what then? write asking for an official caution as PACE entitles and then take my right to silence when offered?

Do not enter into further correspondence.
Reserve the PACE angle for the trial, it is as yet untested.[/quote]


good advice they may just start coming round giving cautions, but I dout it. It would cost em.

[upcreeknopaddle?]

thanks guys for all your help. form is in envelope awaiting taking to the post office, will probably wait till tomorrow now anyway as its getting late & has to be with them by the 16th by my calcs if the NIP is dated 18.09.
if i go registered then its considered to be with them at the moment its posted anyway isnt it?

One last q, is there any mileage to be had in submitting a photocopy of the form on the premise the original has had coffee or something spilled on it, i have then provided the details per s172 and it can never be produced in court anyway as its a copy, they will then send an original and i can either ignore as ive provided details or go to a sol and make sure im yorke compliant, or am i risking more trouble?

[g_attrill]

For 85 in a 40 you are definately gonna get 6 points and a ban, and looking at the guidelines it would be at the top end of the scale, possibly *off* the scale, so you don't have a lot to lose, and even a s172 and big fine might be preferable (although the guidelines seem to indicate £210)


Gareth

[upcreeknopaddle?]

g_attrill said:

For 85 in a 40 you are definately gonna get 6 points and a ban, and looking at the guidelines it would be at the top end of the scale, possibly *off* the scale, so you don't have a lot to lose, and even a s172 and big fine might be preferable (although the guidelines seem to indicate £210) Gareth

yeah i know mate my jaw dropped when i heard the operator tell me the speed of the alleged offence, in fact she said oh my god, then went silent fir a sec and then told me, quite funny really!
am so glad i decided to ring the bastards and find out how fast i was going otherwise i might have signed hoping id just failed to slow enough for the fixed sites i know the position of on the A4 and it would be 3 pointer at 45 mph or something that would have been a right clanger.

If i cant get done for the speeding offence without a properly completed form and s172 is their only way to get me id take that anyway as i wont get a ban. but if outlaw is right then no one has been successfully convicted of failing to provide correct details under S172 if they merely didnt sign the form. with a bit of luck the c.p.s will put mine in the pot with the rest and by the time the law is "clarified" further a statute of limitations would prevent any summons issue after 6mths.

[jeffreyarcher]

upcreeknopaddleQ said:

I was sent an NIP on the 18/09/03 with details of time date & location of offence but no mention of how fast i was clocked at.

Just noticed this. Did the NIP give you no idea of the speed? If not, retain it. You may be able to use it as an additional defence if the worst comes to the worst and you get to court for speeding.
The Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988, Section 1.-
1.—(1) Subject to section 2 of this Act, where a person is prosecuted for an offence to which this section applies, he is not to be convicted unless—
(c) within fourteen days of the commission of the offence a notice of the intended prosecution specifying the nature of the alleged offence and the time and place where it is alleged to have been committed, was—
(ii) in the case of any other offence, served on him or on the person, if any, registered as the keeper of the vehicle at the time of the commission of the offence.
What constitutes 'nature' is up to the court to decide, but if they gave you no idea that it was 85 in a 40, I would submit that they haven't specified the nature.


>> Edited by jeffreyarcher on Tuesday 14th October 20:02

[flat in fifth]

206xsi said:

mel said: I think Outlaw should set up a special PistonHeads NIP filling in service, not only would this mean that the Yorke case president could be applied, but we could bring the legal system to its knees with them all trying to translate Without wishing to appear to pick on Outlaw - that's a fantastic plan. I think it's already been discussed that you don't have to fill it in in English - however as 14 Station Road is 14 Station Road in most languages we'll have to resort to Greek or Cyrillic or something completely obscure?!

Hej Svenska vore bra för mig.

Translation: Hello Swedish would be good for me.

Any good? Brilliant idea! What about Finnish? Even better?
There's gotta be a load of PH'ers who speak oddball languages.

Thread hijack alert!!
206xsi > any progress on our mutual friend at RGU Aberdeen?? you know who I mean!
FiF
/hijack.



>> Edited by flat in fifth on Tuesday 14th October 21:10

[bongomania]

Can I clarify, when filling in the NIP do you fill in section one giving the owners details
AND section two saying you were driving at the time of the alleged offence and then not sign?

Or just fill in section one and not sign?