Had my first drive in an Elise today
Discussion
I am suitably impressed - as I imagined I would be. It was a 57-plate R with an awful lime green and pink interior but the drive was absolutely incredible.
I am going to try a VX220 Turbo for comparision, but I suspect a 111R will find its way into my garage next Spring.
I am deeply envious of those of you fortunate enough to own one of these already.
I am going to try a VX220 Turbo for comparision, but I suspect a 111R will find its way into my garage next Spring.
I am deeply envious of those of you fortunate enough to own one of these already.
The VXT ain't as sharp as the Elise on standard wheels - many VXT owners swap the wheels for the same size as the Elise (17 inch rear, 16 inch front - the VX220 has 17 all round) and that transforms the car's handling... You'll probably prefer the Elise handling to the standard VXT, but the VXT with different wheels is a completely different animal... if you don't like thrashing the engine to go quick then a suitably modified VXT is a very good car.
Yeah, the VXT is making a compelling case for itself. £50/month cheaper to insure, which is a lot when you're 25 and have a mortgage to pay by yourself. I'll see how different it is. I'm tempted by a VXT for a couple of years until I get a company car, then get an Elise/Exige as a weekend toy to stay in the garage.
In terms of wheels, what is the recommendation in terms of 16" fronts? What are the items on the VX N/A?
In terms of wheels, what is the recommendation in terms of 16" fronts? What are the items on the VX N/A?
steveavxt said:
True but the money you save in insurance pays for a new magic tree every week 
Damn, I didn't think that through...TTwiggy said:
and all VXTs smell of poo!
(well, we haven't had 'the old row' for a while now)...
(well, we haven't had 'the old row' for a while now)...
I always make a point of waving/flashing VXs, you get some really startled looks from some drivers!
chevronb37 said:
Yeah, the VXT is making a compelling case for itself. £50/month cheaper to insure, which is a lot when you're 25 and have a mortgage to pay by yourself. I'll see how different it is. I'm tempted by a VXT for a couple of years until I get a company car, then get an Elise/Exige as a weekend toy to stay in the garage.
In terms of wheels, what is the recommendation in terms of 16" fronts? What are the items on the VX N/A?
S1, VXT and S2 Exige owner here In terms of wheels, what is the recommendation in terms of 16" fronts? What are the items on the VX N/A?
Vauxhall insisted on 17 inch front wheels (the S2 Elise and the VX220 / VXT all have 17 inch rear wheels), presumably for aesthetics, and Lotus didn't mind as it made the handling worse than the Elise. All you have to do to get Elise-quality handling from a VX220 or VXT is to get a set of 17-rear 16-front wheels and Lotus spec tyres, and it'll be fantastic. Then get the geometry tweaked to your driving style and it'll be as good as an Elise. There's a slight difference in weight, balance front to rear and (most noticeable) engine performance (don't need to rev the engine as hard in a VX vs. a Lotus) but you'll be in the same ballpark as the Lotus drivers.
In terms of absolute performance, the VXT, appropriately tuned, is faster in the real world than any of the Lotus cars. I've got an Exige S and my VXT was faster in general road driving (i.e. not thrashing the hell out of it). On track, when you can keep the engine on cam everywhere, the Lotuses are always faster... but the low-rev torque of the VXT makes it a very quick car cross-country and easily as fast in an average driver's hands as the fastest Lotuses. Hell, on the motorway coming back from Brighton I kept a Honda-engined S2 behind me and nearly kept up with an Audi-engined S1... but that's not what these cars are about really.
Note that the low-rev stomp of the VXT is also the reason why so many of them get stacked by inexperienced owners. With the earlier Elises, power oversteer is not that common on the road, and most get binned by lift-off oversteer or sheer momentum (i.e. too fast for the grip). The VXT will happily light up its rear wheels in the first three gears and will also move around on lift-off. Get some practice in, I found mine to handle more like a 911 than an Elise - something I never got to the bottom of, since the weight distribution of the VXT is more central than even the Lotus editions - I was expecting the iron block engine to give a heavy tail, thus giving the 911-feeling... but it hasn't. Definitely drives like one though - trail brake into corners to hook up the front, power out etc.
Due to the VX220 using Vauxhall hubs, which have 5 bolts (versus the Elise / Exige, which have 4 bolt hubs), you can't use Lotus wheels. You have to get specially made wheels in these sizes. The usual choice is either the Team Dynamics wheels (I had them on my VXT) from Thorney Motorsport, or a set of the OEM wheels from the VXR, which are rare and expensive (and not that light, either, really, IIRC). Once you've got the right wheels, you can choose the same tyres as the Lotus owners.
The problem with the standard wheels (regardless of what you do with the suspension geometry) is that only Bridgestone make a front tyre to fit. And it's rubbish. So you really need the 16 inch fronts to make the car as good to drive as an Elise. Vauxhall realised as such with the VXR, which has the correct size fronts...
And as to ex-VX220 owners on this forum, I always asked questions on this forum rather than the Vauxhall forum on PH because the VXT has a lot more in common with the Elise than it does with other Vauxhalls... there are a few of us on here, don't be shy. You'll get better responses from the open-minded people on here than the (very slow) traffic on the PH VX forum, so if you want a VX-specific forum then try the vx220.org.uk forums, remember though that the forum is owned and run by John Thorne, who is the owner of Thorney Motorsport. So his products are usually recommended (to be fair, I had Thorney do stuff on my VXT and no complaints whatsoever).
If all you want is a taste of Elise driving on a budget without needing to be a spanner expert, then a VX220 makes a lot more sense than, say, an early cheap S1 that requires more maintenance. However if you want the same 'feel' as a Lotus then you'll need to swap those wheels. If you want to be competitive on track then Lotus all the way (unless you heavily modify the VX), but the VX editions make a lot of sense as road cars.
Dude, I must thank you for a most comprehensive response. It made for interesting reading. I was deeply impressed by the 111R, its composure was startling given how wet it was when I drove it. The traction was very impressive - I saw the red line in second and then third without any squirming or hesitation from the rear tyres, which surprised me. I would expect that, given the extra torque of the VXT, it might be a bit less tractable in those kind of conditions.
I am very intrigued by the idea of a VXT on 16" fronts. I think the standard wheels are OK, but not much to look at really, so aesthetically I'd happily see them go. What did they fit to the VXR? Are they available off the shelf? The steering and pointability (did I just invent that word?!) of the Elise were startling. Probably what attracts so many people to them so I would be keen to maintain that as much as possible. I love the power delivery in my Type-R and the same was apparent in the 111R, but on a day-to-day basis, a torquier balance would prove more relaxing. The car would need to get me to work every day and 20-odd trips to race tracks annually. It's great fun bouncing off the rev limiter, but it can get wearing when you've had a long day at work and just want to get home.
I will try to get a test drive and see if I can find any bargains out there. As awful as it sounds - and I hate to bring money into the equation - the VX is appealling purely for financal reasons. The money I save on insurance I could save towards an Exige in a couple of years! Interesting you make the comparison with a 911 - I haven't driven one, but I understand that they have that distinctive "nose bobbing" thing going on which requires that you appraise your own driving and refine it to suit. Sounds magic.
I am very intrigued by the idea of a VXT on 16" fronts. I think the standard wheels are OK, but not much to look at really, so aesthetically I'd happily see them go. What did they fit to the VXR? Are they available off the shelf? The steering and pointability (did I just invent that word?!) of the Elise were startling. Probably what attracts so many people to them so I would be keen to maintain that as much as possible. I love the power delivery in my Type-R and the same was apparent in the 111R, but on a day-to-day basis, a torquier balance would prove more relaxing. The car would need to get me to work every day and 20-odd trips to race tracks annually. It's great fun bouncing off the rev limiter, but it can get wearing when you've had a long day at work and just want to get home.
I will try to get a test drive and see if I can find any bargains out there. As awful as it sounds - and I hate to bring money into the equation - the VX is appealling purely for financal reasons. The money I save on insurance I could save towards an Exige in a couple of years! Interesting you make the comparison with a 911 - I haven't driven one, but I understand that they have that distinctive "nose bobbing" thing going on which requires that you appraise your own driving and refine it to suit. Sounds magic.
No problemo - it's just that there's quite a lot of snobbery in the Lotus world about the Vauxhall derivatives, and since I've owned both sides and have no axe to grind, I usually tend to pop up in civil discussions as to the merits and failings of both types, because they're all different.
Lotus appear to prefer the low torque, high-revving, high-power approach in their cars. Even the Exige S, which I currently own, has very little torque for a supercharged engine (I've supercharged both one of my old 993 porsches and my current V8 MG ZT, and there's usually a massive hike in torque throughout the low-mid part of the rev range). It delivers most of the power at the upper end of the rev range, just like the aspirated version, but 'more so', if that makes any sense.
The Vauxhall editions, on the other hand, went for cubes or turbos and are a more relaxed, torquey engine delivery. The aspirated VX220 has a 2.2 litre engine (compared to 1.8 for both K and Toyota engined Elises) and considerably more mid-range torque. The VXT has the Z20LET engine which is a tough, tunable engine. Its failing is its weight - Lotus chose the K for the Elise because it was so light (the usual Colin Chapman philosophy), whereas the Z20LET has an iron block and is a considerably heavier engine. It is, however, turbocharged, and a simple stage 2 chip tune will give you 240 lb ft torque and up to 240 bhp. There are plenty of Lotuses out there with the power, but not many of them have more than 200 lb ft of torque - and that's the main difference with the 'feel'.
The VXT is all out of puff by 6000 rpm. This is where the Toyota engined Elises / Exiges are just starting to wake up! The VXT has a nice slug of torque coming in around 2500 rpm, as you suggest, it's possible to break traction so it's important to treat the car with some respect. Lotus, with the linear delivery and low-torque, high-power approach, don't have this problem.
The main issue with the VX220, IMO, is the wheel choice. Some people can't live with the Vauxhall badge, but I don't give a damn about that - AFAIAC the VX220 is an S1.5 Lotus Elise that got extra QC, so is a bargain because of badge snobbery. But those 17" front wheels, and the lack of tyre choice, let the car down. So 16" fronts are a must. The VXR was a limited edition high-performance VXT, with a different zorst and engine map, special wheels (16" fronts) and trackday stickies like the Exige is supplied with (I can't remember whether the standard fitment was A048R or Toyo 888s), along with better suspension dampers, some alcantara in the cabin, etc. They didn't make many so the wheels aren't readily available - the usual choice is to get the aftermarket Team Dynamics multi-spoke wheels. A 'ghetto' approach is to use the standard VXT rear wheels with Astra 16" fronts (which have a similar spoke design) - this is very cheap to do but looks a bit 'cheap', if you know what I mean. The TDs are reasonably light and well proven, TD make the wheel for many different cars and I've seen them on Elises as well.
The other big deal with the VXT is the ABS. The Vauxhall editions had servo brakes (like the current Lotus editions) but had an early derivative of the ABS system - a 2-channel unit that is notoriously unpredictable and has been a factor in a few 'moments' and accidents. It's NOT a good braking system. I personally don't like the unservoed brakes on the S1 and early K-engined S2 Elises, but many people love them. The VXT brakes, however, are almost universally treated with suspicion. Good pads and standard discs (I used Mintex 1144) give good response and strong braking (it's a light car, after all) but god help you if the ABS kicks in... many people disconnect it for trackdays. It's just the ABS ECU that is the problem - it is apparently a straight swap to plug in the S2 Exige unit and get 4-channel ABS. I've thoroughly tested the ABS on my S2 Exige S and it is *phenomenally* good, compared to the VXT.
Only other problems with VXTs? Well the clams are heavier than the Lotus editions, and some were painted before all the solvent evaporated from the composite matrix, causing delamination... this may be covered by Vauxhall warranty but is a right pain in the arse since the clams aren't exactly common, a replacement often means the car is off the road for a long time. The car is heavier than an S1 Elise, and heavier than the S2 Elise. It's about the same weight as an S2 Exige, but has significantly more torque and around the same power. This isn't worth getting steamed up about unless you really want the ultimate lightweight experience, in which case you'll only be satisfied with an S1. The looks are an aesthetic judgement, some people love them, some people hate them. I love the VXT with a hardtop fitted, it's more angular than any of the Lotus editions and doesn't have the curvy 'cuteness' of the Elise - it's a little bit more aggressive. YMMV. Lastly, the VXT drinks fuel - a turbo engine usually overfuels to cool combustion and prevent det - even though a lightly driven (off-boost) VXT on a long run can easily post 35 mpg or more, the aspirated Lotuses are even more economical. Not really a cause for concern though - insurance and tyres (if you choose 888s and take it on track) will cost more than the fuel.
It really is a case of trying the different editions in your budget and seeing which one you like best. The VX220 is more or less an S1.5 Elise - many of the lessons learnt from the VX220 were put into practice in the S2 Elise, and due to quality control issues with the S1 Elise, Vauxhall insisted on separate after-build QC for the VX220. So, age for age and miles for miles, any VX220 should be better screwed together than an equivalent S1 Elise. An enthusiast owned Elise, however, may have all niggles ironed out by the previous owner. Be careful with VX220s that the owners have been enthusiasts - there are a few that were bought by the Novadose crew 'upgrading' to a 'proper sports car' Vauxhall and not been well driven. This applies in a different fashion to the S1 Elises... cars that have been used as cheap track-s1ags will feel tired.
All of the different versions are tremendously rewarding drivers' cars, even on standard wheels the VX isn't bad... it's just so much better on proper Lotus sized rims. And all of the cars have been developed over time so there are plenty of upgrades available and lots of advice on all the forums for when the car does eventually develop a fault.
As to my comment about the 911 - I have owned three 993s in my time and love them, the VXT had that similar feel of having to manage the weight distribution and transfer when cornering - much more so than the Elise and the Exige. I think this may be just down to the fact that the VX suspension is a bit softer than the Lotus editions, and the suspension on mine being set up for the 17" fronts when in fact I had lighter 16" fronts fitted... also the much augmented midrange torque allowed tail adjustment mid corner. With the Exige I'm finding it prefers a much tidier and precise driving style, but everyone is different and all of the cars can be driven like hooligans, you just need more skill to do it in the Elise!!!
Coming from any other 'normal' car, even the softest standard-spec VXT will feel like a kart in comparison, all the way to the Sport 190 Elise S1 (which is a bit hardcore). And even though you read the banter (and sometimes outright rude snobbishness) from Lotus owners about the VX editions, I found that the vast majority of Elise drivers wave back when waved at in the real world, on the road
The way I see it is that the VX editions are great value for money. They're not the best version Lotus made, but they are quick, well screwed together and cheap. I loved mine, and whilst there is no argument that my current Exige S is a better car, it was also £10k more expensive. Try a few out and make a decision. Ideally see if someone in the VX220.org club with 16" fronts will take you out for a ride, the wheels make a vast difference to the handling, but remember that it'll cost you around £1200 to buy a new set with decent tyres (cost of my black TDs with Toyo 888s from Thorney).
Lotus appear to prefer the low torque, high-revving, high-power approach in their cars. Even the Exige S, which I currently own, has very little torque for a supercharged engine (I've supercharged both one of my old 993 porsches and my current V8 MG ZT, and there's usually a massive hike in torque throughout the low-mid part of the rev range). It delivers most of the power at the upper end of the rev range, just like the aspirated version, but 'more so', if that makes any sense.
The Vauxhall editions, on the other hand, went for cubes or turbos and are a more relaxed, torquey engine delivery. The aspirated VX220 has a 2.2 litre engine (compared to 1.8 for both K and Toyota engined Elises) and considerably more mid-range torque. The VXT has the Z20LET engine which is a tough, tunable engine. Its failing is its weight - Lotus chose the K for the Elise because it was so light (the usual Colin Chapman philosophy), whereas the Z20LET has an iron block and is a considerably heavier engine. It is, however, turbocharged, and a simple stage 2 chip tune will give you 240 lb ft torque and up to 240 bhp. There are plenty of Lotuses out there with the power, but not many of them have more than 200 lb ft of torque - and that's the main difference with the 'feel'.
The VXT is all out of puff by 6000 rpm. This is where the Toyota engined Elises / Exiges are just starting to wake up! The VXT has a nice slug of torque coming in around 2500 rpm, as you suggest, it's possible to break traction so it's important to treat the car with some respect. Lotus, with the linear delivery and low-torque, high-power approach, don't have this problem.
The main issue with the VX220, IMO, is the wheel choice. Some people can't live with the Vauxhall badge, but I don't give a damn about that - AFAIAC the VX220 is an S1.5 Lotus Elise that got extra QC, so is a bargain because of badge snobbery. But those 17" front wheels, and the lack of tyre choice, let the car down. So 16" fronts are a must. The VXR was a limited edition high-performance VXT, with a different zorst and engine map, special wheels (16" fronts) and trackday stickies like the Exige is supplied with (I can't remember whether the standard fitment was A048R or Toyo 888s), along with better suspension dampers, some alcantara in the cabin, etc. They didn't make many so the wheels aren't readily available - the usual choice is to get the aftermarket Team Dynamics multi-spoke wheels. A 'ghetto' approach is to use the standard VXT rear wheels with Astra 16" fronts (which have a similar spoke design) - this is very cheap to do but looks a bit 'cheap', if you know what I mean. The TDs are reasonably light and well proven, TD make the wheel for many different cars and I've seen them on Elises as well.
The other big deal with the VXT is the ABS. The Vauxhall editions had servo brakes (like the current Lotus editions) but had an early derivative of the ABS system - a 2-channel unit that is notoriously unpredictable and has been a factor in a few 'moments' and accidents. It's NOT a good braking system. I personally don't like the unservoed brakes on the S1 and early K-engined S2 Elises, but many people love them. The VXT brakes, however, are almost universally treated with suspicion. Good pads and standard discs (I used Mintex 1144) give good response and strong braking (it's a light car, after all) but god help you if the ABS kicks in... many people disconnect it for trackdays. It's just the ABS ECU that is the problem - it is apparently a straight swap to plug in the S2 Exige unit and get 4-channel ABS. I've thoroughly tested the ABS on my S2 Exige S and it is *phenomenally* good, compared to the VXT.
Only other problems with VXTs? Well the clams are heavier than the Lotus editions, and some were painted before all the solvent evaporated from the composite matrix, causing delamination... this may be covered by Vauxhall warranty but is a right pain in the arse since the clams aren't exactly common, a replacement often means the car is off the road for a long time. The car is heavier than an S1 Elise, and heavier than the S2 Elise. It's about the same weight as an S2 Exige, but has significantly more torque and around the same power. This isn't worth getting steamed up about unless you really want the ultimate lightweight experience, in which case you'll only be satisfied with an S1. The looks are an aesthetic judgement, some people love them, some people hate them. I love the VXT with a hardtop fitted, it's more angular than any of the Lotus editions and doesn't have the curvy 'cuteness' of the Elise - it's a little bit more aggressive. YMMV. Lastly, the VXT drinks fuel - a turbo engine usually overfuels to cool combustion and prevent det - even though a lightly driven (off-boost) VXT on a long run can easily post 35 mpg or more, the aspirated Lotuses are even more economical. Not really a cause for concern though - insurance and tyres (if you choose 888s and take it on track) will cost more than the fuel.
It really is a case of trying the different editions in your budget and seeing which one you like best. The VX220 is more or less an S1.5 Elise - many of the lessons learnt from the VX220 were put into practice in the S2 Elise, and due to quality control issues with the S1 Elise, Vauxhall insisted on separate after-build QC for the VX220. So, age for age and miles for miles, any VX220 should be better screwed together than an equivalent S1 Elise. An enthusiast owned Elise, however, may have all niggles ironed out by the previous owner. Be careful with VX220s that the owners have been enthusiasts - there are a few that were bought by the Novadose crew 'upgrading' to a 'proper sports car' Vauxhall and not been well driven. This applies in a different fashion to the S1 Elises... cars that have been used as cheap track-s1ags will feel tired.
All of the different versions are tremendously rewarding drivers' cars, even on standard wheels the VX isn't bad... it's just so much better on proper Lotus sized rims. And all of the cars have been developed over time so there are plenty of upgrades available and lots of advice on all the forums for when the car does eventually develop a fault.
As to my comment about the 911 - I have owned three 993s in my time and love them, the VXT had that similar feel of having to manage the weight distribution and transfer when cornering - much more so than the Elise and the Exige. I think this may be just down to the fact that the VX suspension is a bit softer than the Lotus editions, and the suspension on mine being set up for the 17" fronts when in fact I had lighter 16" fronts fitted... also the much augmented midrange torque allowed tail adjustment mid corner. With the Exige I'm finding it prefers a much tidier and precise driving style, but everyone is different and all of the cars can be driven like hooligans, you just need more skill to do it in the Elise!!!
Coming from any other 'normal' car, even the softest standard-spec VXT will feel like a kart in comparison, all the way to the Sport 190 Elise S1 (which is a bit hardcore). And even though you read the banter (and sometimes outright rude snobbishness) from Lotus owners about the VX editions, I found that the vast majority of Elise drivers wave back when waved at in the real world, on the road
The way I see it is that the VX editions are great value for money. They're not the best version Lotus made, but they are quick, well screwed together and cheap. I loved mine, and whilst there is no argument that my current Exige S is a better car, it was also £10k more expensive. Try a few out and make a decision. Ideally see if someone in the VX220.org club with 16" fronts will take you out for a ride, the wheels make a vast difference to the handling, but remember that it'll cost you around £1200 to buy a new set with decent tyres (cost of my black TDs with Toyo 888s from Thorney).
steveavxt said:
Good post cyberface, as always.
I have a tuned VXT with R888's, racing suspension, 250bhp, track brakes and some lightweight bits.
On track I'd say it is very similar to the Exige S and only driving talent will set the two apart.
If you're at Brands on Friday then I'd like to see that! My VXT had the Miltek zorst and the Thorney stage 2 map but had something wrong with the engine and only produced 200 bhp (with 250 lb ft in the midrange)... only went fast road brakes and normal suspension.I have a tuned VXT with R888's, racing suspension, 250bhp, track brakes and some lightweight bits.
On track I'd say it is very similar to the Exige S and only driving talent will set the two apart.
Edited by steveavxt on Wednesday 17th December 14:36
I'll be the bloke with the bright yellow Exige S - in keeping with my old bright yellow VXT, it's the fastest colour
At croft I found I was pulling away from one Exige S everywhere (corners, straights, braking points) but I couldn't keep up with another one. The other one could have been modded but I suspect he just had bigger balls and was a better driver
I won't be at brands as it's a little too far (and wet) for me. Will be starting the tracking again in April some time. Happy to compare cars at a track in middle of england (im quite far up north).
I won't be at brands as it's a little too far (and wet) for me. Will be starting the tracking again in April some time. Happy to compare cars at a track in middle of england (im quite far up north).
Edited by steveavxt on Thursday 18th December 15:52
noodleman said:
cyberface said:
A 'ghetto' approach
Love it.Edited by noodleman on Thursday 18th December 18:12
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