ABS and all that stuff.
Discussion
I'm just a bit curious as to how much we actually use all this technology.
I've had several cars with ABS and currently have one with traction control. When the ABS kicks in, you know about it. I've tried it just for a laugh but I don't think I've ever activated it in real life. I was out having a bit of fun in the snow recently and a light came on. This was the traction control and it was the first time I've seen it. It's a 4WD diesel, so that may explain it
.
Everyone harps on about how dangerous TVRs are due to the lack of modern control systems, but do we really need or use them? Given the choice, I would rather hit an airbag than a steering wheel, but apart from that...........
I've had several cars with ABS and currently have one with traction control. When the ABS kicks in, you know about it. I've tried it just for a laugh but I don't think I've ever activated it in real life. I was out having a bit of fun in the snow recently and a light came on. This was the traction control and it was the first time I've seen it. It's a 4WD diesel, so that may explain it
. Everyone harps on about how dangerous TVRs are due to the lack of modern control systems, but do we really need or use them? Given the choice, I would rather hit an airbag than a steering wheel, but apart from that...........
Think its mainly down to common sense really (and sometimes just poor badluck)
If you saw 6 inches of snow outside you would not grab the TVR keys and drive round like
a looney! You would be getting out in something more safe like 4WD or ABS/Traction control etc...
Drive it safe enough and you'll be fine. Drive like a looney on the track. where you would be turning
off all the safety features on the car if it had them!
Yes at the end of the day a airbag would be nice.
If you saw 6 inches of snow outside you would not grab the TVR keys and drive round like
a looney! You would be getting out in something more safe like 4WD or ABS/Traction control etc...
Drive it safe enough and you'll be fine. Drive like a looney on the track. where you would be turning
off all the safety features on the car if it had them!
Yes at the end of the day a airbag would be nice.
TVR Dan said:
Think its mainly down to common sense really (and sometimes just poor badluck)
If you saw 6 inches of snow outside you would not grab the TVR keys and drive round like
a looney! You would be getting out in something more safe like 4WD or ABS/Traction control etc...
Drive it safe enough and you'll be fine. Drive like a looney on the track. where you would be turning
off all the safety features on the car if it had them!
Yes at the end of the day a airbag would be nice.
Absolutely. Electronic driving aids can be very beneficial in certain areas and for certain people - every driver is different and some have no mechanical sympathy for their car or respect for the conditions or appreciation of the risks, so in these cases, great. If you saw 6 inches of snow outside you would not grab the TVR keys and drive round like
a looney! You would be getting out in something more safe like 4WD or ABS/Traction control etc...
Drive it safe enough and you'll be fine. Drive like a looney on the track. where you would be turning
off all the safety features on the car if it had them!
Yes at the end of the day a airbag would be nice.
captsideways said:
However with a powerful rwd car you'd be amazed how fool proof the latest stability control stuff is, it really is astonishingly good :nod: Imagine a TVR you granny could drive safely thats just how good it is.
Yes, of course these things can help but the point IMHO is that I would not want them on my TVR (and I most certainly wouldn't want my granny driving it
). Don't you think that things will reach the point where real driving ability will be degraded by widespread use. i.e. People will expect the car to take control when errors are made and so may not concentrate as hard as they would have to without them.Driving aids are not foolproof and don't work in every situation.
AlexanderV8 said:
TVR Dan said:
Think its mainly down to common sense really (and sometimes just poor badluck)
If you saw 6 inches of snow outside you would not grab the TVR keys and drive round like
a looney! You would be getting out in something more safe like 4WD or ABS/Traction control etc...
Drive it safe enough and you'll be fine. Drive like a looney on the track. where you would be turning
off all the safety features on the car if it had them!
Yes at the end of the day a airbag would be nice.
Absolutely. Electronic driving aids can be very beneficial in certain areas and for certain people - every driver is different and some have no mechanical sympathy for their car or respect for the conditions or appreciation of the risks, so in these cases, great. If you saw 6 inches of snow outside you would not grab the TVR keys and drive round like
a looney! You would be getting out in something more safe like 4WD or ABS/Traction control etc...
Drive it safe enough and you'll be fine. Drive like a looney on the track. where you would be turning
off all the safety features on the car if it had them!
Yes at the end of the day a airbag would be nice.
captsideways said:
However with a powerful rwd car you'd be amazed how fool proof the latest stability control stuff is, it really is astonishingly good :nod: Imagine a TVR you granny could drive safely thats just how good it is.
Yes, of course these things can help but the point IMHO is that I would not want them on my TVR (and I most certainly wouldn't want my granny driving it
). Don't you think that things will reach the point where real driving ability will be degraded by widespread use. i.e. People will expect the car to take control when errors are made and so may not concentrate as hard as they would have to without them.Driving aids are not foolproof and don't work in every situation.
Far Eastender said:
I have a 4X4 Audi and when it snowed here last year I had no chance of stopping using the brakes. The ABS kicked in, but I didn't slow down....
I think this is one area where the car manufacturers have got it wrong. ABS doesn't work in snow and ice. You get the ABS constantly kicking in and out and even at very low speeds you don't stop. this is especially prevalent if you have for arguments sake stopped half way up a bank and you need to slowly descend backwards to have another crack.Traction control on the other hand is very good and really does help cars get a grip.
I live high up in the hills and some driver aids can be tested quite well in the conditions I live in.
Modern cars are not suited to snow and ice.
One funny thing happened last week. I was tip toeing to Hexham and behind me with non of the driving aids was an old Dolomite 1850. he had much more grip and traction than me on his narrow little tyres and no ABS.
Funny thing technology.
N.
Used ABS once in anger, and yes, I think it saved me from a minor smash. Car in L1 decides to move out to L2, (where I was almost alongside his back end about to pass him), obviously he didn't look, and just pulled straight out, hit the brake pedel, chunk chunk chunk, as the ABS came on.
Wheather or not I would have skidded without it, don't know. I see it as a safety feature, which on the roads these days is not to be sneezed at the way some drivers (minority I know) choose to drive.
Wheather or not I would have skidded without it, don't know. I see it as a safety feature, which on the roads these days is not to be sneezed at the way some drivers (minority I know) choose to drive.
heebeegeetee said:
heightswitch said:
Modern cars are not suited to snow and ice.
They work just fine in snowy and icy parts of the world though. I believe volvo etc offer the opportunity of switching off the system on non UK spec cars destined for the norweigen / swedish climates for just a reason.
its the old problem of cars today are optimised for UK fine weather roads, we don't get the harsh winters we used to but when we have a heavy frost people really struggle. partly due to skill loss of the populus and partly due to the cars.
I have seen BMw's stuck on the 5 degree slip road at hexham on the A69 due to RWD and wide tyres.
N.
heightswitch said:
its the old problem of cars today are optimised for UK fine weather roads, we don't get the harsh winters we used to but when we have a heavy frost people really struggle. partly due to skill loss of the populus and partly due to the cars.
Er, don't forget that the cars available here are available throughout Europe and the wider world, and are working just fine in areas like the Alps. Probably a change of tyres transforms them. But whatever it is, the problems only exist here, probably because we just don't get enough snow and ice to warrant spending much money on the problem.[quote=heebeegeetee
Er, don't forget that the cars available here are available throughout Europe and the wider world, and are working just fine in areas like the Alps. Probably a change of tyres transforms them.
[/quote]
You mean a forced change to winter tyres and the legal requirement in many countries affected by snow to carry snow chains? Hardly qualifies saying the cars we have here work fine in the Alps...not without the proper equipment they don't.
Er, don't forget that the cars available here are available throughout Europe and the wider world, and are working just fine in areas like the Alps. Probably a change of tyres transforms them.
[/quote]
You mean a forced change to winter tyres and the legal requirement in many countries affected by snow to carry snow chains? Hardly qualifies saying the cars we have here work fine in the Alps...not without the proper equipment they don't.
I've never quite understood the anti abs thing, I've been involved in car manufacturer demo's of such widgetry, have done countless miles of snow & winter driving, had a few cars with switchable abs (some that I fitted) I guarantee from high'ish speed on ice/snow it's nigh on impossible to pull a car up straight without it trying to loose control. So imagine a situation where you suddenly realise the road is covered in ice & something is ahead...
As a guide & I know its not your average situation! at 100mph on a snow packed runway I could'nt stop an non abs equipped car in straight line most times it'd go for terminal spin, with abs on it pulled up straight every time. If it was a motorway I'd have been in the barriers, a different lane, or up the banking, That taught me something & I do this stuff for a living!!!
As a guide & I know its not your average situation! at 100mph on a snow packed runway I could'nt stop an non abs equipped car in straight line most times it'd go for terminal spin, with abs on it pulled up straight every time. If it was a motorway I'd have been in the barriers, a different lane, or up the banking, That taught me something & I do this stuff for a living!!!
Edited by cptsideways on Tuesday 16th December 08:58
timmybob said:
[quote=heebeegeetee
Er, don't forget that the cars available here are available throughout Europe and the wider world, and are working just fine in areas like the Alps. Probably a change of tyres transforms them.
You mean a forced change to winter tyres and the legal requirement in many countries affected by snow to carry snow chains? Hardly qualifies saying the cars we have here work fine in the Alps...not without the proper equipment they don't.Er, don't forget that the cars available here are available throughout Europe and the wider world, and are working just fine in areas like the Alps. Probably a change of tyres transforms them.
heebeegeetee said:
I don't see how anyone can say that cars designed and built in europe are optimised for the UK, I think that's very far from the truth.
I agree. I'd taken what he said originally to mean optimised for non-snow (if that makes sense). UK cars do tend to carry different spec tyres to those in mainland Europe. And living in the NRW region of Germany where there is hardly any snow, most people have already switched to winter tyres.ABS, airbags, etc are all things that have been invented to help out in emergency, or near emergency situations. The idea being that you hopefully never have to use them, but they can make the difference if they are ever required.
Thing like traction control, ESP, well they are just for people who either don't have the skills, or are too lazy to drive the car them self! :P
Thing like traction control, ESP, well they are just for people who either don't have the skills, or are too lazy to drive the car them self! :P
[quote=jammy_basturd]ABS, airbags, etc are all things that have been invented to help out in emergency, or near emergency situations. The idea being that you hopefully never have to use them, but they can make the difference if they are ever required.
Thing like traction control, ESP, well they are just for people who either don't have the skills, or are too lazy to drive the car them self! :P[/quote
I disagree.
Driving a 2wd Audi TD SE in snow high up in the hills of Northumberland the Traction control makes one hell of a difference in terms of the slopes possible and indeed the ability to pull away from a standing start if stopped behind a stuck vehicle. The use of TC is a revelation in circumstances like this. On a car fitted without, once stopped you just cannot get traction again to get moving.
The ABS works against in the opposite manner. Don't get me wrong I think it is the single most important and useful driver aid ever invented and in poor rainy weather where full force braking is required it cannot be beaten.
My issue is that in very snowy and icy conditions The ability not to be able to lock the brakes at very very slow speeds actually makes stopping distances much much longer than cars without ABS because the computer is fooled and perpetually keeps unlocking the wheels. As ever it is a compromise but for snowy conditions it would be good to be able to disable it. In my opinion that is.
Has no one else ever experienced what I mean?
N.
Thing like traction control, ESP, well they are just for people who either don't have the skills, or are too lazy to drive the car them self! :P[/quote
I disagree.
Driving a 2wd Audi TD SE in snow high up in the hills of Northumberland the Traction control makes one hell of a difference in terms of the slopes possible and indeed the ability to pull away from a standing start if stopped behind a stuck vehicle. The use of TC is a revelation in circumstances like this. On a car fitted without, once stopped you just cannot get traction again to get moving.
The ABS works against in the opposite manner. Don't get me wrong I think it is the single most important and useful driver aid ever invented and in poor rainy weather where full force braking is required it cannot be beaten.
My issue is that in very snowy and icy conditions The ability not to be able to lock the brakes at very very slow speeds actually makes stopping distances much much longer than cars without ABS because the computer is fooled and perpetually keeps unlocking the wheels. As ever it is a compromise but for snowy conditions it would be good to be able to disable it. In my opinion that is.
Has no one else ever experienced what I mean?
N.
heightswitch said:
My issue is that in very snowy and icy conditions The ability not to be able to lock the brakes at very very slow speeds actually makes stopping distances much much longer than cars without ABS because the computer is fooled and perpetually keeps unlocking the wheels. As ever it is a compromise but for snowy conditions it would be good to be able to disable it. In my opinion that is.
It's not a nice feeling when the ABS just turns the brakes off on you and you're heading straight towards something rather solid and not slowing down. You only need to turn it off if you're driving on the sortof slippery surface you shouldn't be driving on though. I don't get to see snow very often but the sort of sudden inputs that disable the brakes aren't really the sort of thing I remembr doing on snow.Gassing Station | General TVR Stuff & Gossip | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff