Hello and advice required
Discussion
Good morning people, first post here but have been browsing for quite a while. Dunno if this is the correct section for my post, but advice required.
I drive a P reg 97 Astra GSi. It went in to the garage last week for surgery (brake disc and pads, rear coil springs, 2 tyres etc) and an MOT. I took the car to the garage that looks after the company fleet of cars and vans as they have a reasonable reputation in this area, and I could also put the bill on the company account and therefore get it a bit cheaper, and spread the cost over two or three months out of my wages. Anyway, I got the car back last thursday and all seemed well and good. Driving to the office this morning, it starts making an almighty racket so I did a u turn to take it back to the garage. The engine cut out and wouldn't restart or turn over, so phoned them up and they towed the car back to the garage. Within five minutes and without putting the car on the ramps, the mechanic comes out and tells me the water pump failed, which dislodged the timing belt, which has apparently knackered the engine as there is no compression. So, should this have been picked up when they MOT'd and serviced the car last week? Would a water pump failure knock out the timing belt? I was doing approx 20mph when the engine cut, will it have caused that much engine damage?
As you may imagine, am right royally peed off. i eventually got a lift to the office and found on my desk the repair bill for £689.82, plus a warning that there was "noise from the timing belt cover".
So, what next?
Thanks people.
I drive a P reg 97 Astra GSi. It went in to the garage last week for surgery (brake disc and pads, rear coil springs, 2 tyres etc) and an MOT. I took the car to the garage that looks after the company fleet of cars and vans as they have a reasonable reputation in this area, and I could also put the bill on the company account and therefore get it a bit cheaper, and spread the cost over two or three months out of my wages. Anyway, I got the car back last thursday and all seemed well and good. Driving to the office this morning, it starts making an almighty racket so I did a u turn to take it back to the garage. The engine cut out and wouldn't restart or turn over, so phoned them up and they towed the car back to the garage. Within five minutes and without putting the car on the ramps, the mechanic comes out and tells me the water pump failed, which dislodged the timing belt, which has apparently knackered the engine as there is no compression. So, should this have been picked up when they MOT'd and serviced the car last week? Would a water pump failure knock out the timing belt? I was doing approx 20mph when the engine cut, will it have caused that much engine damage?
As you may imagine, am right royally peed off. i eventually got a lift to the office and found on my desk the repair bill for £689.82, plus a warning that there was "noise from the timing belt cover".
So, what next?
Thanks people.
JRM said:
but not sure I can see how the whole engine gets knackered if the timing belt stops?
The timing belt controls the motion of the valves and the piston. If it's an interference engine, then the valves and pistons occupy the same phycsical spaces but at different times. If, for instance, the belt snaps while the engine is running then the valves and pistons can run into each other. Bent valves = badly damaged engine!JRM said:
.
but not sure I can see how the whole engine gets knackered if the timing belt stops?
Know much about engines ? but not sure I can see how the whole engine gets knackered if the timing belt stops?
This is fairly classic I am afraid and actually £700 doesn't sound too bad. It can cause engines to be completely wrecked.
Firstly I would check - have the replaced the timing belt, the pulleys etc and the water pump ?
Secondly if there are still "noises" from the valves then chances are you have a bent valve which needs replacing.
Ask them if you can pay for the parts and half the labour ?
Edit to add - beaten to it
Edited by Gargamel on Wednesday 17th December 12:09
Quite likely that the timing belt failure has caused the valves to clash with the pistons. This will mean that the valves will have bent, and will not seat properly - hence no compression.
You may be able to salvage it with a head rebuild, depending how hard the pistons took the whack. It's probably worth splitting the engine and taking a look IMO - I managed to rebuild my RS head myself for about 200 quid after losing a cambelt some years ago.
You may be able to salvage it with a head rebuild, depending how hard the pistons took the whack. It's probably worth splitting the engine and taking a look IMO - I managed to rebuild my RS head myself for about 200 quid after losing a cambelt some years ago.
The MOT would not have picked up any problem with the timing belt, it's nothing to do with an MOT.
If it is the 2 litre 8 valve engine same as the one they fitted to Cavaliers around L-reg then it is non-interference so the engine should not be internally damaged. I only know this because I had such a Cavalier and had a timing belt fail, 18,000 miles after being replaced.
The failure in my case was due to the tensioner wheel failing, I replaced that and fitted a new belt and it cost about £40. Plus a day off work to fit it myself.
If it is the 2 litre 8 valve engine same as the one they fitted to Cavaliers around L-reg then it is non-interference so the engine should not be internally damaged. I only know this because I had such a Cavalier and had a timing belt fail, 18,000 miles after being replaced.
The failure in my case was due to the tensioner wheel failing, I replaced that and fitted a new belt and it cost about £40. Plus a day off work to fit it myself.
Thanks so far.
I am just wandering how they managed to diagnose a water pump failure so quick, with no water peeing out that I could see. And also the comment about noise from timing belt cover. Sounds to me like the timing belt cover was loose and maybe caught in the timing belt, and if it was loose, why they didn't tighten it etc etc. Oh, and its the 16 valve ecotec engine.
I am just wandering how they managed to diagnose a water pump failure so quick, with no water peeing out that I could see. And also the comment about noise from timing belt cover. Sounds to me like the timing belt cover was loose and maybe caught in the timing belt, and if it was loose, why they didn't tighten it etc etc. Oh, and its the 16 valve ecotec engine.
Nolar Dog said:
Timing belt would not and can not be checked on an MOT.
That's your responsibilty.
Timing belt snapping or water pump problems on an Astra GSi will destroy the engine.
That's your responsbility.
Sorry.
Is the right answer, not the news you want to hear, but it is right nonetheless. Just a large dose of bad luck for you I'm afraid mate. Still, its Christmas soon.That's your responsibilty.
Timing belt snapping or water pump problems on an Astra GSi will destroy the engine.
That's your responsbility.
Sorry.
Can you clarify exactly what you asked them to do initially?
In the first part of your post you say it went in for "surgery...tyres etc." and then further down you ask if they should have picked up the problem when they MOT'd and serviced the car.
What were your instructions to the garage? Just to carry out the repairs that you listed or to carry out a full service?
In the first part of your post you say it went in for "surgery...tyres etc." and then further down you ask if they should have picked up the problem when they MOT'd and serviced the car.
What were your instructions to the garage? Just to carry out the repairs that you listed or to carry out a full service?
it's normally standerd practice to ask about cam belt history when you service a car for the first time. though some will put the question on the bottom of the invoice.
A broken belt and the cause are usually pretty obvious. Very rarely is it a belt failure. more often a tensioner or water pump or something else that causes the belt to break.
TBH the garage should have investigated the noise further, rather than just noting it.
But it is some times difficult for the garage when you have a first time customer and already have a £700 bill on a car that's not worth much more and they have to suggest you spend another 2-300 on a belt. They don't want to come across as just wanting to take your money.
Keep calm, wait 'til you get an estimate and ask why they didn't investigate the noise further when they serviced it. then ask for a discount on the labour.
A broken belt and the cause are usually pretty obvious. Very rarely is it a belt failure. more often a tensioner or water pump or something else that causes the belt to break.
TBH the garage should have investigated the noise further, rather than just noting it.
But it is some times difficult for the garage when you have a first time customer and already have a £700 bill on a car that's not worth much more and they have to suggest you spend another 2-300 on a belt. They don't want to come across as just wanting to take your money.
Keep calm, wait 'til you get an estimate and ask why they didn't investigate the noise further when they serviced it. then ask for a discount on the labour.
The MOT is a roadwortyness test NOT a service so doesn't cover such items. I get this all the time at work when a car has broken down and the customer says it's just been Mot'd how come they didn't spot it. I'm sure some people think that their car gets a full service every time it's put through an Mot. As for the service it will depend on what you asked them to do. Was it just an oil and filter change or did you ask for a detailed inspection? Both will vary the costs quite considerably.
Water pump failure on the 16v ecotec engines is a common fault which will of course take the timing belt with it. Most garages always advise to have it changed when the timing belt gets changed but invariably customers will have a tight attack or think the garage is pulling one so decline. Sure as eggs are eggs the water pump fails and they complain that the garage didn't fit the timing belt correctly.
PS when the car makes an almighty racket then switch it off and do not try to restart it until it's been checked. As it sounds like the water pump gave way which would be the initial noise and then when you continued to try and drive it the timing belt broke which would damage the valves as they were struck by the pistons. Possibly a lesson to learn for the future.
Water pump failure on the 16v ecotec engines is a common fault which will of course take the timing belt with it. Most garages always advise to have it changed when the timing belt gets changed but invariably customers will have a tight attack or think the garage is pulling one so decline. Sure as eggs are eggs the water pump fails and they complain that the garage didn't fit the timing belt correctly.
PS when the car makes an almighty racket then switch it off and do not try to restart it until it's been checked. As it sounds like the water pump gave way which would be the initial noise and then when you continued to try and drive it the timing belt broke which would damage the valves as they were struck by the pistons. Possibly a lesson to learn for the future.
Edited by wolf1 on Wednesday 17th December 12:58
Edited by wolf1 on Wednesday 17th December 13:01
Thanks again. Think it's time to accept and cut my loses. Spent £280 on a new exhaust for it last month too!! So that's the best part of £1k on a car probably worth £1k before the engine went pop. I guess spending another £600 quid to get the engine fixed is just throwing good money after bad. Time to grovel to someone for some cash for a runaround. Her indoors left me last month and took half the house contents with her, so could have done without this expence and I ain't looking forward to Christmas. Roll on next year, warmer dry days, the open road and my FZ1.
My apologies Tim i didn't notice the bit about the warning re noise from timing cover. Now technically they did warn you of some sort of impending doom however being an experienced outfit the correct thing to have done would be to have a chat with you about it and explain than it needs to be addressed, as this engine has a history of belt failures due to water pump and tensioner failure.
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