Radical SR8 competitors

[edb49]

I am dreaming what my ultimate track day car would be.

What cars are in the same league as the Radical SR8 for a crazy track day car? What about Juno, Norma, etc? The SR8 does seem to have the advantage of being the only one with a bike V8, although I think Chiron might do an RST V8.

Given an unlimited budget, Radical-type car would be the one to go for?

[Davey S2]

Palmersport Jag?

Close to £50k though.

[juansolo]

edb49 said:

I am dreaming what my ultimate track day car would be.

What cars are in the same league as the Radical SR8 for a crazy track day car? What about Juno, Norma, etc? The SR8 does seem to have the advantage of being the only one with a bike V8, although I think Chiron might do an RST V8.

Given an unlimited budget, Radical-type car would be the one to go for?

Juno is in a different league to the Radical in all honesty. But none of them are particularly good track day cars, unless your idea of fun is dealing with a track full of traffic travelling half the speed you are.

As for the unlimited budget closed wheel car? probably a Audi R8 LeMans.

[edb49]

Is the Juno considerably better than the Radical then? I'd be interested to know in what way...

[juansolo]

edb49 said:

Is the Juno considerably better than the Radical then? I'd be interested to know in what way...

The Juno is a proper modern race car. The Radical under the skin is still a crude space frame chassis with a nice looking body and engine. Effective, no doubt. But as I say, a very different kettle of fish.

I've got some pics of a Juno under the skin at home. Very, very nice things.

Andy Deodera's you're man. Went from racing and trackdaying a top end SR3 and now has a full on Juno.

Edited by juansolo on Thursday 18th December 13:08

[edb49]

Is it just a case of refinement then? The Juno looks like it is the same kind of construction as the Radical, unless I've missed something. I wonder if the Powertec V8 fits in the Juno? There is something attractive about 10k rpm!

[juansolo]

The big, big Radical is a carbon full on thing that they bought in. The SR8 as far as I'm aware is essentially an SR3 with a V8 derived from a bike engine. Which means welded steel chassis like a Caterham with ali bits riveted to it with a fibreglass body. Damned effective, but archaic compared to the Juno.

Best pics I can find on the web at the moment...

Radical



Juno

Edited by juansolo on Thursday 18th December 13:39

[edb49]

Fair enough, so there is quite a big engineering difference between the Juno and Radical. What does this actually mean in terms of performance and on track feel though?

[juansolo]

edb49 said:

Fair enough, so there is quite a big engineering difference between the Juno and Radical. What does this actually mean in terms of performance and on track feel though?

Not the faintest idea. Which is why I've brought this thread to the attention of Andy who's run both. I would imagine the more modern, more highly developed car would be much more effective. But that's meerly speculation as sometimes the crude stuff can surprise you.

[edb49]

Cool. It would be good to get someone's opinion who has run both, and it would be interesting to see what their current choice is.

[juansolo]

edb49 said:

Cool. It would be good to get someone's opinion who has run both, and it would be interesting to see what their current choice is.

He's got a Juno SSE-CN at the moment and I believe he also considered the SR8 as the other option.

Edited by juansolo on Thursday 18th December 14:58

[juansolo]

Oooh and reading that the Juno is a spaceframe also! I'll have to dig out the pics as I say. Still, side by side, the engineering on the Juno really is very, very nice.

EDIT: from the horses mouth on the Radical forum

Edited by juansolo on Thursday 18th December 15:20

[AndrewD]

Thanks for the link juan! The car is now being painted a fetching shade of caparo T1 purple & frod focus ST orange ... can't wait to drive it again, we are looking into some winter testing somewhere warm prior to next season.

Ed, I've not driven an SR8 so I can't comment on it vs the Juno. However, the Juno in VdeV/UK SPEED series CN1 spec has a c. 250bhp high revving Honda engine, similar power to a top end SR3, and in my opinion is in another league (to be fair, also in another league cost wise). It seems to have much more downforce, and as I said on the other post, to me it is more adjustable in terms of setup. My 135mph down Craners first time out in a Juno vs around 125mph in an SR3 after a couple of years makes the point (at least in my hands!). I've seen the data of another Juno, making just over 140mph too so there's more to come. I suspect, though I've no proof, that a 250bhp Juno wouldn't be far off a 360bhp SR8 in terms of outright lap times on average. The Normas and Ligiers give the Juno a run for its money, but I'm led to believe that is also a driver thing and the gap is closing. Certainly the Junos have a good finishing record which is obviously important in endurance racing.

To run, on trackdays (racing requires a team anyway), the SR3 wasn't too bad but you had to be reasonably handy with a spanner. Those days are gone for me, too much faffing about, so I get Juno to run my car even on track days. To be honest, it is a step change from the Radical and to a relative mechanical numpty like me, I don't personally fancy running a Juno off the back of a trailer myself at a track day. Though it isn't really that difficult. Just more effort than say a top end Caterham, need a few tools, plus a friend to help with bodywork ideally.

As a pure track day proposition I think an SR3 is fine, no need to go to something like an SR8 or Juno - as Juansolo says you'll be held up a fair amount of the time anyway (though using open pitlane days with reputable track day companies I didn't find this too vexing). These other cars are a bit more full on and more suited to racing IMHO

Anyway, good luck!

[tertius]

AndrewD said:

Thanks for the link juan! The car is now being painted a fetching shade of caparo T1 purple & frod focus ST orange ... can't wait to drive it again, we are looking into some winter testing somewhere warm prior to next season.

Ed, I've not driven an SR8 so I can't comment on it vs the Juno. However, the Juno in VdeV/UK SPEED series CN1 spec has a c. 250bhp high revving Honda engine, similar power to a top end SR3, and in my opinion is in another league (to be fair, also in another league cost wise). It seems to have much more downforce, and as I said on the other post, to me it is more adjustable in terms of setup. My 135mph down Craners first time out in a Juno vs around 125mph in an SR3 after a couple of years makes the point (at least in my hands!). I've seen the data of another Juno, making just over 140mph too so there's more to come. I suspect, though I've no proof, that a 250bhp Juno wouldn't be far off a 360bhp SR8 in terms of outright lap times on average. The Normas and Ligiers give the Juno a run for its money, but I'm led to believe that is also a driver thing and the gap is closing. Certainly the Junos have a good finishing record which is obviously important in endurance racing.

To run, on trackdays (racing requires a team anyway), the SR3 wasn't too bad but you had to be reasonably handy with a spanner. Those days are gone for me, too much faffing about, so I get Juno to run my car even on track days. To be honest, it is a step change from the Radical and to a relative mechanical numpty like me, I don't personally fancy running a Juno off the back of a trailer myself at a track day. Though it isn't really that difficult. Just more effort than say a top end Caterham, need a few tools, plus a friend to help with bodywork ideally.

As a pure track day proposition I think an SR3 is fine, no need to go to something like an SR8 or Juno - as Juansolo says you'll be held up a fair amount of the time anyway (though using open pitlane days with reputable track day companies I didn't find this too vexing). These other cars are a bit more full on and more suited to racing IMHO

Anyway, good luck!

I think I was on the Bookatrack day at Donington where you were running the Juno - earl October I think?

It really was amazingly fast. Looked like a blast! But as you say much much faster than anything else, for me a lot of the fun in trackdays is the other cars that are at or about one's own pace.

If money is really no object what about a Caparo T1?

[edb49]

AndrewD said:

To run, on trackdays (racing requires a team anyway), the SR3 wasn't too bad but you had to be reasonably handy with a spanner. Those days are gone for me, too much faffing about, so I get Juno to run my car even on track days. To be honest, it is a step change from the Radical and to a relative mechanical numpty like me, I don't personally fancy running a Juno off the back of a trailer myself at a track day. Though it isn't really that difficult. Just more effort than say a top end Caterham, need a few tools, plus a friend to help with bodywork ideally.

I think this is quite critical really, I don't want to spend time worrying about fixing/adjusting things. I want to do an initial set-up, then turn up to a track day and roll it off a trailer, blat around all day, put it back on the trailer and leave it in the garage until the next day. Then maybe once/twice a year send it off to someone for a freshen up. Am I in dreamland thinking I could treat a Radical and/or Juno like this?

[juansolo]

A bit late and they're not very good pics, but as promised, some more Juno shottage:

[juansolo]

edb49 said:

AndrewD said:

To run, on trackdays (racing requires a team anyway), the SR3 wasn't too bad but you had to be reasonably handy with a spanner. Those days are gone for me, too much faffing about, so I get Juno to run my car even on track days. To be honest, it is a step change from the Radical and to a relative mechanical numpty like me, I don't personally fancy running a Juno off the back of a trailer myself at a track day. Though it isn't really that difficult. Just more effort than say a top end Caterham, need a few tools, plus a friend to help with bodywork ideally.

I think this is quite critical really, I don't want to spend time worrying about fixing/adjusting things. I want to do an initial set-up, then turn up to a track day and roll it off a trailer, blat around all day, put it back on the trailer and leave it in the garage until the next day. Then maybe once/twice a year send it off to someone for a freshen up. Am I in dreamland thinking I could treat a Radical and/or Juno like this?

Sadly, pretty much, yes. I have a friend that runs an old Radical Clubsport (probably the best bang-per-buck available when it comes to track cars), but it's very much not arrive and drive. You need to be competent with a spanner at the very least to do it on your own and if you were planning on running an old one, very competent. The newer ones I'll admit are probably less so, but these are full on racing cars and full on racing cars are usually fairly high maintenance. It comes with the territory.

If you want a fast arrive and drive, low maintenance track car, your best bet is to go for something light with as strong and as stock an engine in it as possible. The higher the state of tune, the more attention it's going to need and the more cash you're going to need to throw at it. A track spec Caterfield of some description would be a good place to start with a near stock (internally) Duratec or Zetec 2.0. That's going to give you in the region of 160-190 bhp in something around the 500kg mark and a strong as hell engine. It'll be quick, not as quick as any slicks and wings racers we've been on about admittedly, but then as we've mentioned before, that can be immensely frustrating on a track day as you'll be mixing with regular road cars. A decently pokey caterfield is a nice compromise and they're a sweet thing. Until they start allowing us to use open wheelers, they're about the most sensible trackday car there is. Otherwise I'd be pointing you in the direction of a Formula Ford Zetec.

[edb49]

Which bits actually require spannering though? I appreciate that a Caterfield with a road-spec Duratec will be very low maintenance, but an engine (from my POV) should just be a box that sits in the car, I pour petrol in and power comes out. I don't see a particular issue with getting the engine rebuilt every 30-60 hours for the Radicals; this is something that happens away from the track and doesn't require me spannering.

What would actually need to be done to run a Radical/Juno as a track day car?

[juansolo]

edb49 said:

Which bits actually require spannering though? I appreciate that a Caterfield with a road-spec Duratec will be very low maintenance, but an engine (from my POV) should just be a box that sits in the car, I pour petrol in and power comes out. I don't see a particular issue with getting the engine rebuilt every 30-60 hours for the Radicals; this is something that happens away from the track and doesn't require me spannering.

What would actually need to be done to run a Radical/Juno as a track day car?

Ok, I'm going from the point of view of helping out a friend with an old Radical so bear that in mind:

Before the track day prep:

Fill jerries, pack car with tools, jack, different silencers, etc
Body off, give the car a check, fluids, wotnot. Go around it just generally checking it over.
Fire it up make sure it's running right. Nothing's leaking.
Retrieve trailer and load it up with 2 sets of slicks, put wets on the car (the logic is that it's far nicer to fit the slicks in dry, than to arrive and find that it's pissing it down and you have to change tyres in the rain).
Pump all the tyres up with too much pressure (slicks tend to lose it and again, it's easier to let it out when they're on than to have to go around and pump them up).
Load up the car onto the trailer, fit the cover, hitch it up, go to bed.

On the day:

Find a mate (you'll need them to help you take off the bodywork).
Swap the tyres if it's dry, get the pressures right.
Oil the chain.
Refit bodywork.
Do the noise test then fit the appropriate silencer.

...and you're ready to go!

When you're done:

Return home, unload car, unload wheels, unload tools and wotnot.
Return trailer to store.

Go to bed...

Comparitively, a Caterfield:

Get up, get in car, drive to venue stopping for fuel on the way.

Drive around, refuel from local filling station when low.

Drive home, put car in garage.


Matey with the Radical has 3 engines in various states of build, the currently in use one is actually away at the moment having the gearbox rebuilt. It helps if you can at least remove and re-fit the engine yourself then you can just drop off and pick up.

EDIT: To be fair if it was a track only Caterfield you'd still have all the trailering ball ache and tyres if you're going to run slicks 'n' wets. So in that respect I suppose they'd be pretty similar.

Edited by juansolo on Saturday 20th December 10:04

[AndrewD]

edb49 said:

Which bits actually require spannering though? I appreciate that a Caterfield with a road-spec Duratec will be very low maintenance, but an engine (from my POV) should just be a box that sits in the car, I pour petrol in and power comes out. I don't see a particular issue with getting the engine rebuilt every 30-60 hours for the Radicals; this is something that happens away from the track and doesn't require me spannering.

What would actually need to be done to run a Radical/Juno as a track day car?

With something like an SR3 you won't need to do much in terms of setup if you're running it at track days, it will be quick enough. You'll just need to be able to adjust the dampers if running wets (very easy just turn the adjuster knob with the std dampers anyway). And possibly adjust the rear wing which is simple allen key stuff. As you push it harder you might want to start adjusting other things.

Spannering for a track day will involve a quick spanner check beforehand, around half an hour going round the car checking various bolts, links, brakes, etc. At the track day you'll want to do the usual stuff like tyre pressures (very critical). Torqueing the wheels if you change wheels requires a friend to sit in the car with foot on the brake. Then between sessions you'll want to take the back off and check for leaks etc just in case, plus a quick check of the oil level. Between every 2-3 track days you'll need to do an oil change, check brake fluid, coolant, etc. Engine and quaife gear drive will need a regular refresh probably over winter. The front splitter is quite exposed (eg. high curbs or run off) so on occasion you may find yourself having to drill out the rivets of a broken splitter, and then rivet a new one on.

So nothing major, but the cumulative total, including manhandling what is quite a wide low car onto the trailer before and after track days is more of a fag than say a Caterham. But then if you get your thrills from going faster, then ultimately it is more rewarding than a Cat too.

A Juno, being in my experience more adjustable and sensitive to setup, needs you to know what you're doing. It is a more sophisticated and complicated car, comparatively. Engine/gearbox refresh intervals are longer but can cost significantly more.

If I was going for a pure track day car I personally would get another SR3. Lots of bang for the buck. But probably get somebody to run it as I've done 2.5 years of running it myself.

Hope that helps.