Discussion
Hi Guys,
I am on the lookout to upgrade my Mondeo oil burner to a more serious car and the 2000/2001 E55, B5/B6 S4 and C5 S6 are the three that I am looking at.
The requirements are reasonably simple - a good quality quick car of a reasonable size, up to around £8k and a real joy to drive. My daily commute is only 17 miles each way, with 15 being on the motorway, the fuel economy is not a major issue.
I have already posted this on the Audi forum and have received many comments, I was wondering what the Merc forum members view on this was?
Cheers,
Graham
I am on the lookout to upgrade my Mondeo oil burner to a more serious car and the 2000/2001 E55, B5/B6 S4 and C5 S6 are the three that I am looking at.
The requirements are reasonably simple - a good quality quick car of a reasonable size, up to around £8k and a real joy to drive. My daily commute is only 17 miles each way, with 15 being on the motorway, the fuel economy is not a major issue.
I have already posted this on the Audi forum and have received many comments, I was wondering what the Merc forum members view on this was?
Cheers,
Graham
My S4 was the worst car I have ever owned, gear ratios made anything other than motorway driving a real chore. Oh, and because of those stupid ratios it is revving its nuts off at 90mph on the motorway and doing 18mpg!
The auto is far better in this respect.
Then there is the handling, you have to fight it round corners and because of that it just doesn't seem safe, which to me is the point of having the Quattro system in the first place.
A truly awful car in every respect!
Actually the interior is quite nice.
The auto is far better in this respect.
Then there is the handling, you have to fight it round corners and because of that it just doesn't seem safe, which to me is the point of having the Quattro system in the first place.
A truly awful car in every respect!
Actually the interior is quite nice.
I know you asked about the bigger cars, and you said reasonable size, but you never said what was reasonable...
How about a 7 series BMW, seems you don't mind the slightly older cars, and if I had that budget, I would definately be looking at the last shape 7 series with a big v8 or v12 engine....
Just thought I'd throw in a wildcard, sorry it doesn't help with your choices!
How about a 7 series BMW, seems you don't mind the slightly older cars, and if I had that budget, I would definately be looking at the last shape 7 series with a big v8 or v12 engine....
Just thought I'd throw in a wildcard, sorry it doesn't help with your choices!
Cheers for the addition Vinnie, I did spot an 03 745 that certainly made me think. Huge barge, total luxury but not the quickest off the marks. I really want something sub 6 to 60. [last quick car I had was a 165 brake R5 Turbo back in 98 when I was 18]. So time for something to fill the last decade of slow cars and oil burners.
Having said that, I have been made aware of the Jaguar S-Type R, 4.2 V8 Supercharged with 400bhp - cheapest insurance out of everything I am looking at so will be viewing these over the Christmas holidays.
Having said that, I have been made aware of the Jaguar S-Type R, 4.2 V8 Supercharged with 400bhp - cheapest insurance out of everything I am looking at so will be viewing these over the Christmas holidays.
gizlaroc said:
My S4 was the worst car I have ever owned, gear ratios made anything other than motorway driving a real chore. Oh, and because of those stupid ratios it is revving its nuts off at 90mph on the motorway and doing 18mpg!
The auto is far better in this respect.
Then there is the handling, you have to fight it round corners and because of that it just doesn't seem safe, which to me is the point of having the Quattro system in the first place.
Really? What do you mean by fighting it round corners?The auto is far better in this respect.
Then there is the handling, you have to fight it round corners and because of that it just doesn't seem safe, which to me is the point of having the Quattro system in the first place.
As for the gear ratios, isn't that the point? It's a sporty car so it has closer ratios?
Ive owned a 1998 E55 for nearly 3 years and i have done over 25k miles with it,it is a terrific car in all respects.I have taken it to the ring and european trips without major proplems.It has a moded ecu and no limiter,the performance is stunning and i use it every day.As an all round family car and a performance track day car it is hard to find better.
ShadownINja said:
Really? What do you mean by fighting it round corners?
As for the gear ratios, isn't that the point? It's a sporty car so it has closer ratios?
The under steer is just incredible, you feel like you are fighting every corner that is taken with any sort of pace, the front just doesn't want to go round. I put a bigger rear anti roll bar on which all the S4 guys recommend, but it didn't really make much, if any difference.
Regarding the gear ratios, they were set up to try and get the 0-60mph times down apparantly with a 3.9:1 final drive, where as Audi originally wanted a 3.6:1, however this would have meant the 0-60mph time was over 6 seconds, compare that with the M3 at 5 seconds and it didn't look good.
It would however have made a much, much nicer car to drive on anything but the drag strip.
The problem is round town you are constantly swapping gears, feels more like a diesel than a 4.2 litre V8, and very tiring. Most S4 owners say that it is best to use just 2nd, 4th and 6th, but to me that just proves how crap the ratios are.
If you look at the figures below they are for changing gear at at 4000 rpm (normal driving) and 6000rpm (having fun), (these are as close as I can see them using a chart, but should be within a couple of mph) and it shows you just how much nicer a 3.6:1 final drive would have been.
Final Drive 3.89:1
1st Gear Ratio3.67:1 20mph 30mph
2nd Gear Ratio2.05:1 40mph 55mph
3rd Gear Ratio1.46:1 50mph 78mph
4th Gear Ratio1.13:1 68mph 102mph
5th Gear Ratio0.92:1 83mph 123mph
6th Gear Ratio0.78:1 97mph 145mph
Final Drive 3.6:1
1st Gear Ratio3.67:1 24mph 38mph
2nd Gear Ratio2.05:1 43mph 64mph
3rd Gear Ratio1.46:1 60mph 90mph
4th Gear Ratio1.13:1 78mph 115mph
5th Gear Ratio0.92:1 93mph 142mph
Anbd what about making 6th a little shorter, 142mph ragging it should be fine for 99% of driving, so if 6th had a .65:1 ratio instead of 0.78:1 we would get the following figures...
6th Gear Ratio 0.65:1
4000rpm 130mph and at the limiter you would be doing 4800rpm.
You could sat crusing at 80mph at 2300rpm and at 100mph at 2900rpm.
This would see the S4 returning 29mpg at 100mph, and make it alot more useable through the gears.
Just my humble opinion and I am sure Audi know far better than me!
gizlaroc said:
ShadownINja said:
Really? What do you mean by fighting it round corners?
As for the gear ratios, isn't that the point? It's a sporty car so it has closer ratios?
The under steer is just incredible, you feel like you are fighting every corner that is taken with any sort of pace, the front just doesn't want to go round. I put a bigger rear anti roll bar on which all the S4 guys recommend, but it didn't really make much, if any difference.
the active suspension on the e55, which keeps it flat under acceleration and cornering, gives the illusion of a much smaller car - you can never get away from a car that weighs 2 tonnes, but they have done a very good job of hiding it.... The biggest concern in the E55 is throttle oversteer, because of the huge torque, you'll spin up the rears very often without wanting to!
vinnie83 said:
the active suspension on the e55, which keeps it flat under acceleration and cornering, gives the illusion of a much smaller car - you can never get away from a car that weighs 2 tonnes, but they have done a very good job of hiding it.... The biggest concern in the E55 is throttle oversteer, because of the huge torque, you'll spin up the rears very often without wanting to!
so anothe PH + for the Merc then 
would say Merc too, having owned a C36 of same era
vinnie83 said:
the active suspension on the e55, which keeps it flat under acceleration and cornering, gives the illusion of a much smaller car - you can never get away from a car that weighs 2 tonnes, but they have done a very good job of hiding it.... The biggest concern in the E55 is throttle oversteer, because of the huge torque, you'll spin up the rears very often without wanting to!
I dont think the E55 ever had active suspenshion unlike the SL55 AMG, it did/dose have air suspenshion with 3 `damper settings` for comfort, sports 1 and sports 2. Tuxman, Hi Mate, I like the new car, do you use the MB dealer in Peterborough ?
marc.l said:
I dont think the E55 ever had active suspenshion unlike the SL55 AMG, it did/dose have air suspenshion with 3 `damper settings` for comfort, sports 1 and sports 2.
I always thought it did! maybe I'm wrong, you are indeed correct about the damper settings, but I always thought it had some sort of self levelling system too....vinnie83 said:
marc.l said:
I dont think the E55 ever had active suspenshion unlike the SL55 AMG, it did/dose have air suspenshion with 3 `damper settings` for comfort, sports 1 and sports 2.
I always thought it did! maybe I'm wrong, you are indeed correct about the damper settings, but I always thought it had some sort of self levelling system too....I belive the latest E55 (W211?) has air suspension - comfort/sport/sport2 and all that. Certainly the E500 W211 has it as standard so I assume the E55 does too. Same systems seen on SL's and S classes.
The first gen E55 (W210) didn't. I think it might have had self levelling (maybe as an option?) but that was it IMHO.
The first gen E55 (W210) didn't. I think it might have had self levelling (maybe as an option?) but that was it IMHO.
The driving style of the big cube Mercs is wonderful: they develop very high torque over a wide engine speed range starting relatively low. My 1999 SL500 (which has a smaller capacity version of the M113 motor in the W210 E55 AMG) develops 335lb/ft from 2,750 to 4,000rpm. That makes it strong, lusty and keen to rev. It also means it will sit at 2,000rpm at 70mph.
The thing about the big Mercs is that the standard performance figures do not tell the whole story: in gear times and 50-70 or 60-90 times are extremely impressive. I find that in the 60 to 120mph range the engine has boundless energy.
The ratios on the Audi sound crap. Mine does 50 in 1st, 85 in 2nd, 125 in 3rd and 155 in 4th and 5th.
The thing about the big Mercs is that the standard performance figures do not tell the whole story: in gear times and 50-70 or 60-90 times are extremely impressive. I find that in the 60 to 120mph range the engine has boundless energy.
The ratios on the Audi sound crap. Mine does 50 in 1st, 85 in 2nd, 125 in 3rd and 155 in 4th and 5th.
Hi Angus
the sl had active suspenshion I think its called `ABC` for active body control and the main problem is when it gose wrong its normaly the suspenshion strut and there £1000 a throw. The e class I dont think ever had `ABC` (active body control) mine is air suspenshion and self leveling and also drops down at speed (w211 e55 amg) but is not active. You can tune the suspenshion on the SL55 by reprograming the `ABC` control ecu. You can not do this on a W211 E class, all you can do is use a lowering modual to lower the suspenshion.
I may be wrong with this as I`ve never owned a SL , but my understanding is that the SL had active (ABC) and the E class was air matic. If in wrong thanks for putting me right,
all the best marc
ps.
i dont want to start a war or fall out with anybody. I`m not to big to admit to being wrong if I am.
the sl had active suspenshion I think its called `ABC` for active body control and the main problem is when it gose wrong its normaly the suspenshion strut and there £1000 a throw. The e class I dont think ever had `ABC` (active body control) mine is air suspenshion and self leveling and also drops down at speed (w211 e55 amg) but is not active. You can tune the suspenshion on the SL55 by reprograming the `ABC` control ecu. You can not do this on a W211 E class, all you can do is use a lowering modual to lower the suspenshion.
I may be wrong with this as I`ve never owned a SL , but my understanding is that the SL had active (ABC) and the E class was air matic. If in wrong thanks for putting me right,
all the best marc
ps.
i dont want to start a war or fall out with anybody. I`m not to big to admit to being wrong if I am.
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