rear anti-roll bar, is it an option?
Discussion
I was wondering about adding a rear anti-roll bar to my Griff 4.0.
Can you fit a Griff 500 rear anti-roll bar to a Griff 4.x? Was the front anti-roll bar stiffened when the rear one was added to the 500? Has anyone done it and if so, is it worth the effort? Are the Chimera and Griff anti-roll bars the same?
Anyone got any Griff or Chimera rear uprights with hubs going spare?
Also can the front brakes be swapped over between a Griff 500 and a Griff 4.x? What is the donar car for the front discks and calipers on the Griff 500?
Thanks in advance for any answers.
Cheers,
Neil
Can you fit a Griff 500 rear anti-roll bar to a Griff 4.x? Was the front anti-roll bar stiffened when the rear one was added to the 500? Has anyone done it and if so, is it worth the effort? Are the Chimera and Griff anti-roll bars the same?
Anyone got any Griff or Chimera rear uprights with hubs going spare?
Also can the front brakes be swapped over between a Griff 500 and a Griff 4.x? What is the donar car for the front discks and calipers on the Griff 500?
Thanks in advance for any answers.
Cheers,
Neil
True, whilst the increase in additional roll stiffness would reduce over-all body roll. My Griff seems to understeer a little at present and I'm not brave enough or a good enough driver to spend every corner pushing the rear around on the throttle. I assumed that the addition of the rear bar would make the car a little more neutral in its handling.
clive f said:
Pupp said:
Stange world... you guys without are queuing to add rear ARBs, whereas I couldn't get rid quick enough... 
whats it like without then Pupp??I refer the honourable gentleman to this post I submitted earlier to our Chimaera bretheren:
shpub said:
I refer the honourable gentleman to this post I submitted earlier to our Chimaera bretheren:
shpub said:
There are three configurations:
1. Standard setup with rear ARB and rubber drop links.
2. No rear ARB
3. ARB with SH drop links.
I've tried them all. Setup 1 as normal makes the car twitchy as the rear ARB applies its correcting force in big dollops. Instead of a gradual progressive correction force, it effectively over compensates.
Setup 2 removes the twitchiness because there is no ARB. However it does let the rear of the car roll more and this in itself does cause problems on the limit. The rear of the car wants to roll more than the front and this can cause some interesting effects when cornering on the limit in terms of stability. What is normally done is to stiffen the rear shocks/springs to compensate for the lack of the ARB. Difficult to do with a standard setup and also a bit frought in getting the balance right as the rear suspension is now stiffer and may be stiffer than the front. This causes issues with weight transfer etc as typically the front needs to be a bit stiffer to compensate. In other words, it really should be done only if the rest of the car suspension is upgraded to compensate. When the car rolls, it reduces the tyre contact patch as well which can reduce traction. The cure for this is to increase camber but this reduces the contact patch when the car isn't cornering i.e. straight line. So taking the ARB off solves one issue but introduces other issues so it is not a panacea for all suspension problems.
I have tried it on my Griff and Cerbera. With the Griff, while it was an improvement over the standard setup, it traded one set of problems for another in that the increased roll made it slower through complex corners and roundabouts. It felt like the front and rear were fighting each other. I suspect that the front ARB was trying to compensate for the front and rear at the same time and not doing a good job. On the Cerbera, I have experienced similar characteristics which doesn't give me the same confidence in the car and so the rear ARB is going back on. As I said, with adjustable shocks and changing springs these problems can be addressed but usually at the expence of a stiffer and harsher ride as the suspension is doing the additional job of the ARB.
Setup 3 lets the ARB work progressively. What is interesting is than many people have been able to soften the rear suspension when the SH droplinks have been fitted because the rear shocks/springs no longer need to compensate for the ARB issues. This results in a softer and more complient ride without increasing roll and so on. This does give some indication of the amount of work the ARB actually does in terms of effect. It doesn't change the amount of stiffness on the rear at all because the ARB controls the roll progressively so only the amount of correction needed for the roll is applied. It may seem as if a stiffer rear ARB has been fitted compared to the standard version because the car rolls less. However the ARB stiffness is determined by the ARB dimensions and that has not changed. What has changed is how the correction force is applied. With the standard setup, it is a very coarse application. With the SH droplinks it is progressive. To use a shopping trolley metaphor, one steers the trolley by kicking it from the side and then kicking it from the other side when the trolley turns too much and repeating the operation. The other steers the trolley by applying just enough force to turn it the right amount. One is smooth and the other extremely twitchy.
So what do you do? Personally I wouldn't remove the rear ARB unless it was part of a suspension upgrade where the springs and shocks have been changed to compensate for the missing ARB. It doesn't turn it into a dangerous car for normal restrained driving but it trades the ARB induced twitchyness for increased roll and some peculiar pitching and movement which can be very unpleasant, especially with high speed corners or direction change.
If you do keep the rear ARB, fitting the SH droplinks will remove the twitchyness and make the back end more stable i.e. the suspension works as it was intended to.
shpub said:
There are three configurations:
1. Standard setup with rear ARB and rubber drop links.
2. No rear ARB
3. ARB with SH drop links.
I've tried them all. Setup 1 as normal makes the car twitchy as the rear ARB applies its correcting force in big dollops. Instead of a gradual progressive correction force, it effectively over compensates.
Setup 2 removes the twitchiness because there is no ARB. However it does let the rear of the car roll more and this in itself does cause problems on the limit. The rear of the car wants to roll more than the front and this can cause some interesting effects when cornering on the limit in terms of stability. What is normally done is to stiffen the rear shocks/springs to compensate for the lack of the ARB. Difficult to do with a standard setup and also a bit frought in getting the balance right as the rear suspension is now stiffer and may be stiffer than the front. This causes issues with weight transfer etc as typically the front needs to be a bit stiffer to compensate. In other words, it really should be done only if the rest of the car suspension is upgraded to compensate. When the car rolls, it reduces the tyre contact patch as well which can reduce traction. The cure for this is to increase camber but this reduces the contact patch when the car isn't cornering i.e. straight line. So taking the ARB off solves one issue but introduces other issues so it is not a panacea for all suspension problems.
I have tried it on my Griff and Cerbera. With the Griff, while it was an improvement over the standard setup, it traded one set of problems for another in that the increased roll made it slower through complex corners and roundabouts. It felt like the front and rear were fighting each other. I suspect that the front ARB was trying to compensate for the front and rear at the same time and not doing a good job. On the Cerbera, I have experienced similar characteristics which doesn't give me the same confidence in the car and so the rear ARB is going back on. As I said, with adjustable shocks and changing springs these problems can be addressed but usually at the expence of a stiffer and harsher ride as the suspension is doing the additional job of the ARB.
Setup 3 lets the ARB work progressively. What is interesting is than many people have been able to soften the rear suspension when the SH droplinks have been fitted because the rear shocks/springs no longer need to compensate for the ARB issues. This results in a softer and more complient ride without increasing roll and so on. This does give some indication of the amount of work the ARB actually does in terms of effect. It doesn't change the amount of stiffness on the rear at all because the ARB controls the roll progressively so only the amount of correction needed for the roll is applied. It may seem as if a stiffer rear ARB has been fitted compared to the standard version because the car rolls less. However the ARB stiffness is determined by the ARB dimensions and that has not changed. What has changed is how the correction force is applied. With the standard setup, it is a very coarse application. With the SH droplinks it is progressive. To use a shopping trolley metaphor, one steers the trolley by kicking it from the side and then kicking it from the other side when the trolley turns too much and repeating the operation. The other steers the trolley by applying just enough force to turn it the right amount. One is smooth and the other extremely twitchy.
So what do you do? Personally I wouldn't remove the rear ARB unless it was part of a suspension upgrade where the springs and shocks have been changed to compensate for the missing ARB. It doesn't turn it into a dangerous car for normal restrained driving but it trades the ARB induced twitchyness for increased roll and some peculiar pitching and movement which can be very unpleasant, especially with high speed corners or direction change.
If you do keep the rear ARB, fitting the SH droplinks will remove the twitchyness and make the back end more stable i.e. the suspension works as it was intended to.
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