Any Hi-Fi Experts out there? DAC Converters
Discussion
I'm thinking of buying a MF V-DAC box for my hi-fi system.
Have an old CD player (Kenwood 10 years old, but with an optical output) and an average Amp (Kenwood 3020).
I was thinking that I could kill two birds with one stone, by buying this DAC converter,
because I can use it to improve the sound of the CD player and use it to play my MP3 files
through.
Am I correct?
Are they worth it?
BG
Have an old CD player (Kenwood 10 years old, but with an optical output) and an average Amp (Kenwood 3020).
I was thinking that I could kill two birds with one stone, by buying this DAC converter,
because I can use it to improve the sound of the CD player and use it to play my MP3 files
through.
Am I correct?
Are they worth it?
BG
Diderot said:
guffhoover said:
/\ Agreed unless you are going for a very top end audiophile system (which you're not)
Even then, unless you've properly acoustically treated your room and are using balanced cables, it's absolutely pointless. It will improve it but you'll have to listen to decide if the improvement is worth it in that system. As for MP3's that will only work if the player is MP3 compatible. If you are thinking of using a MP3 player as the feed then you will have to make sure it has a digital output. Ipod's for example do but it's a difficult one to access and only Wadia have a dock that allows it. And that's £350.
Edited by telecat on Tuesday 23 December 14:10
telecat said:
It will improve it but you'll have to listen to decide if the improvement is worth it in that system. As for MP3's that will only work if the player is MP3 compatible. If you are thinking of using a MP3 player as the feed then you will have to make sure it has a digital output. Ipod's for example do but it's a difficult one to access and only Wadia have a dock that allows it. And that's £350.
Decent studio quality DACs cost thousands and thousands of quid. A little box for £150 will make no difference whatever, especially in a living room. End of. Edited by telecat on Tuesday 23 December 14:10
'If' you were going to stick bass traps up in all the corners, clouds on the ceiling, get rid of parallel walls, treat the floor, put diffusers and absorption at the reflection points, use balanced cables, buy proper active monitoring (3k+) and you have good pair of ears, then you might be able to hear the difference between an average DAC for £1k and a great 8 channel one for £9k.
Honestly, honestly, you'd be far better off buying 150 quid's worth of beer and pissing it up a wall.
HTH
They can improve the sound but try before you buy.
I bought a second hand Arcam Delta black box DAC for £100 (£700 new)and fitted it to my old Rotel CD player( it was a well regarded player when new) and it totally transformed the sound, I was expecting an improvement but it vastly exceeded my expectations.
I bought a second hand Arcam Delta black box DAC for £100 (£700 new)and fitted it to my old Rotel CD player( it was a well regarded player when new) and it totally transformed the sound, I was expecting an improvement but it vastly exceeded my expectations.
20 years ago, when my ears could tell the difference, I sat in a listening suite trying to work out whether a Linn Numerik on the back of a Linn Karik was worth the money over the Karik-standalone. Even then, with a "tuned" ear, I couldn't tell the difference and these are two high-end items.
Nowadays I can hardly tell the difference between an MP3 player and CD player. 25 years of playing drums and battering my senses wth loud cars has put paid to that... however I'm happier as I'm more easily pleased. As long as it's loud and the speakers are large-enough to move some air, I'm happy.
Nowadays I can hardly tell the difference between an MP3 player and CD player. 25 years of playing drums and battering my senses wth loud cars has put paid to that... however I'm happier as I'm more easily pleased. As long as it's loud and the speakers are large-enough to move some air, I'm happy.
There are other things you could do which would improve things, like (as has been mentioned) bass trapping, monitor (speaker) placement, decoupling of monitors from the surface they're standing on by the use of isolation pads, filling the stands with shot or dry sand (in bags usually) - if your speakers are on stands, that is. Or you could treat yourself to a good pair of headphones (next on my list are some AKG 701/702's):
http://www.akg.com/site/press_center/powerslave,id...
You might find this forum helpful:
http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/postlist.php?Boa...
Usually, the cheapest but most effective way to get more from your music is actually to treat the room itself, rather than use additional technologies. The Sound on Sound forum will give you all of the information you'll need if you decide to look at acoustc treatments. Ready Traps are particularly easy to work with.
http://www.akg.com/site/press_center/powerslave,id...
You might find this forum helpful:
http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/postlist.php?Boa...
Usually, the cheapest but most effective way to get more from your music is actually to treat the room itself, rather than use additional technologies. The Sound on Sound forum will give you all of the information you'll need if you decide to look at acoustc treatments. Ready Traps are particularly easy to work with.
Edited by markoos on Tuesday 23 December 19:37
Amazingly, many of those studio grade DACs use Burr-Brown chips which cost under £5, however the OPA627 amplifier chips are $12-56 each depending on grade, and you need at least 2. The clock sources and output bugger/amps can be equally (if not more) important. Instead of a new external DAC, maybe look into getting a clock, op-amp and capacitor upgrade kit.
Diderot said:
telecat said:
It will improve it but you'll have to listen to decide if the improvement is worth it in that system. As for MP3's that will only work if the player is MP3 compatible. If you are thinking of using a MP3 player as the feed then you will have to make sure it has a digital output. Ipod's for example do but it's a difficult one to access and only Wadia have a dock that allows it. And that's £350.
Decent studio quality DACs cost thousands and thousands of quid. A little box for £150 will make no difference whatever, especially in a living room. End of. Edited by telecat on Tuesday 23 December 14:10
'If' you were going to stick bass traps up in all the corners, clouds on the ceiling, get rid of parallel walls, treat the floor, put diffusers and absorption at the reflection points, use balanced cables, buy proper active monitoring (3k+) and you have good pair of ears, then you might be able to hear the difference between an average DAC for £1k and a great 8 channel one for £9k.
Honestly, honestly, you'd be far better off buying 150 quid's worth of beer and pissing it up a wall.
HTH
And what are you on about with regard to an Eight Channel DAC?? There are Dolby 7.1 amps out there but the quality just is not comparable to a Good Stereo DAC. More to the point that is a Blu-Ray spec and is not relevant to CD.
I use an external DAC on my computer, sounds infinitely better. My Dad has an old Pioneer PD-91 CD player which although was amazing in 1989 is quite old by today's standards, but as he likes it he fed it through a modern external DAC and it now has a modern and very good sound.
It basically depends upon how crap your existing CD player is as to how much better it'll sound.
It basically depends upon how crap your existing CD player is as to how much better it'll sound.
I have no idea where the above posters get their info on re "it's pointless, you need cables and room accoustic treatment etc"
IMO, a load of twaddle.
I've had the MF Xdac and X24k (which was lurverly), both added consierable detail and enjoyment to my system - which used a DVD as a transport. The DAc is the bit that takes the 0's and 's from the CD mech, and converts them to line level analogue on RCA's (phono plugs). By adding an external DAC, you'll you'll replace both the nuber crunching bit, AND the output stage - and those musical fidelity boxes are really quite good.
Finally, make sure you get some decent interconnects between the dac and amp, but don't worry about the optical lead - they're all the same performance wise.
Graham
IMO, a load of twaddle.
I've had the MF Xdac and X24k (which was lurverly), both added consierable detail and enjoyment to my system - which used a DVD as a transport. The DAc is the bit that takes the 0's and 's from the CD mech, and converts them to line level analogue on RCA's (phono plugs). By adding an external DAC, you'll you'll replace both the nuber crunching bit, AND the output stage - and those musical fidelity boxes are really quite good.
Finally, make sure you get some decent interconnects between the dac and amp, but don't worry about the optical lead - they're all the same performance wise.
Graham
telecat said:
Diderot said:
telecat said:
It will improve it but you'll have to listen to decide if the improvement is worth it in that system. As for MP3's that will only work if the player is MP3 compatible. If you are thinking of using a MP3 player as the feed then you will have to make sure it has a digital output. Ipod's for example do but it's a difficult one to access and only Wadia have a dock that allows it. And that's £350.
Decent studio quality DACs cost thousands and thousands of quid. A little box for £150 will make no difference whatever, especially in a living room. End of. Edited by telecat on Tuesday 23 December 14:10
'If' you were going to stick bass traps up in all the corners, clouds on the ceiling, get rid of parallel walls, treat the floor, put diffusers and absorption at the reflection points, use balanced cables, buy proper active monitoring (3k+) and you have good pair of ears, then you might be able to hear the difference between an average DAC for £1k and a great 8 channel one for £9k.
Honestly, honestly, you'd be far better off buying 150 quid's worth of beer and pissing it up a wall.
HTH
And what are you on about with regard to an Eight Channel DAC?? There are Dolby 7.1 amps out there but the quality just is not comparable to a Good Stereo DAC. More to the point that is a Blu-Ray spec and is not relevant to CD.
The reality is that these pieces of kit are simply pointless; any so called subjective improvements to the sound will be obliterated by acoustical issues in your room and inherent compromises in equipment.
I often use a very famous studio which is designed from the ground up to eliminate many of the most common acoustical gremlins found in listening environments; this a studio which has £150k's worth of monitors, £90k's worth of DACs, a £400k desk etc. In such places small differences between DACs etc are discernible - you can hear that some DACs have less clock jitter, some have a more stable stereo image, less colouration etc; to your average punter in an average living room, such differences would not be discernible at all - let alone with a £150 DAC.
Edited by Diderot on Wednesday 24th December 11:01
what is this fella on about?
The MF DAC / output stages will be several generations newer, and 3 times the basic cost of the circuity in the Kenwood player. The OP is not asking about 10's of thousands worth of kit FFS!
Re. room accoustics, it IS nice when you've got a room sorted, but the kit in it is still important, lol.
Finally, you CAN like hifi without growing a beard and buying upgrade kits from Russ Andrews - the snake oil business is only part of the industry.
oh, and some of the RA kit definately works, I've tried it
The MF DAC / output stages will be several generations newer, and 3 times the basic cost of the circuity in the Kenwood player. The OP is not asking about 10's of thousands worth of kit FFS!
Re. room accoustics, it IS nice when you've got a room sorted, but the kit in it is still important, lol.
Finally, you CAN like hifi without growing a beard and buying upgrade kits from Russ Andrews - the snake oil business is only part of the industry.
oh, and some of the RA kit definately works, I've tried it
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