Brake Pads and Tyres
Discussion
Well after all of the searching on everyones opinions it looks as though EBC Yellowstuff pads is the way to go. So I have ordered some today from JRT-Automotive (£97.50) and will fit them first thing in the new year. Have only run the standard pas up until now and had a bad experience with Pagid RS42s squealing and had to take them off!
Question on tyres now. I have been very pleased with my Yoko AD07s but want to reduce understeer on the front. Can I 195 section tyres to my standard 6 spoke S2 wheels or is a better geo set up recommended?
Question on tyres now. I have been very pleased with my Yoko AD07s but want to reduce understeer on the front. Can I 195 section tyres to my standard 6 spoke S2 wheels or is a better geo set up recommended?
Let me know how you get on with the Yellow pads. I was under the impression that Yellow weren't road legal i.e. race / rally only, and took a while to warm up with such a light car.
I want to swap my pads but cannot stand brake squeal and need to retain 'road-legal' brakes just in case of an accident and subsequent insurance investigation (using non-road-legal brakes won't be good news with the insurers as they're a fundamental safety item, however 'better' the race pads may be).
I used Mintex 1144 on the VXT and they worked well, but not sure if they're hard enough for track work. Both the 'sensible' (blue RS42) and the 'race' (black RS14) Pagids are marked 'track use only' in the Lotus accessories catalogue and by resellers (e.g. Hangar 111) so apart from being expensive, it's not clear whether they are road legal or not.
(I'm quite aware that a sensible driver with decent hard pads will get them warm as part of any drive and will therefore be safer, but insurance companies don't approach these things with common sense. I'm perfectly capable of ensuring my brakes are warm enough to be safe in all conditions, and besides if you run into someone in town due to the brakes being cold, then you're going too fast in town. Even full-race pads will stop you with a heavy foot on the brake from dead cold, in a car as light as an Elise. But insurance companies and MOT have rules...)
I've used EBC Green (both on unservoed S1 Elises, servoed VXT, and an MX-5) and found them utter rubbish, to the point that I actively recommend people avoid Greenduff pads. However it's not an EBC thing, because I ran EBC Red pads on my blown 993 and they were very strong, no squeal, and no fade even at a summer trackday at Brands GP on trackday tyres. The Reds were a bit grumbly, you could feel the extra abrasion and I don't think the discs would last as long, but they were an excellent road and session trackday pad on a 1400 kg car. I'm not sure if they'd like constant hours on track - my car couldn't put up with more than 10 laps in a go anyway due to heat soak and no chargecooler.
I chose the Reds on the basis of the indie specialist that serviced all my 911s recommending them, they used them in their 944 race car in full-race conditions. They said the Reds were adequate for the temperatures they were seeing in races. They certainly worked well on my car. But then again, my Exige S feels like it could lap all day long without a break - apart from the brakes getting hot and grumbly. So whether the Reds would be enough given that the Exige is a lot lighter than the Porker, up for grabs. Working fine for a 20 lap race with the 944s is all well and good but the 944 was a stripped race car and considerably lighter than the 993. Assuming 20 laps at a time is enough on a trackday (often is for me) I reckon the Reds would be the best compromise for my car, unless the Yellows bite from cold *and* are road legal
I'd appreciate it if you write up what you think of the Yellows when you get them on - both in terms of road driving in the winter (from cold) and ultimate bite. I guess you won't be able to tell whether the pads are too much for the heat dispersal capacity of the discs and calipers until you do a brake-heavy trackday though (Snetterton?). I'll be going to the next two LoT days (Snetterton and Brands Indy again IIRC) and may swap the pads after Snet.
I'm sure the standard pads on an Exige are man enough for the job but I have absolute paranoia about braking (which ruins my absolute lap times, I'm reasonably quick through the corners but always brake too early) due to one of my brake discs snapping in two at Goodwood in a souped up trackday 205 GTi... one or two seconds earlier and I'd have been killed. So I always like utterly OTT brakes that can take an absolute hammering. I always had confidence in my Porsches as their brakes were huge and powerful. The Exige is much lighter and doesn't need overkill brakes but for peace of mind... Would like to get away from drilled discs as well - the failure in the 205 was caused by weaknesses due to the holes
ETA - Tim makes a good point regarding driver training and geo. However you can bung 195s on the front and on their own, they *will* reduce understeer, but the best bet is to then have the geometry looked at again. This can dial in as much or as little understeer as you wish. You can dial in a tailhappy car but you have to be comfortable with this, it's a bit edgy on the road. The VX220 turbo I had started life with 175 Bridgestone fronts which were the only available tyre (17" fronts, you see). Too much understeer, even though they were comfy, so I got an Exige-sized set of wheels (16" fronts) and bunged on 195 width Toyo 888 trackday stickies. The car transformed from a mild-understeer floaty thing into a tramlining, incredibly responsive steering, throttle adjustable missile. Best thing I ever did to that car. It didn't handle substantially differently from my current Exige S apart from the VXT having softer springs and slower weight transfer within bends; it was a bit easier to gently oversteer as long as you didn't let the turbo spool up while you were balancing the power. So I reckon you'd have the same increase in sharpness by putting fatter front tyres on. I'm pretty sure Lotus deliberately put skinny fronts on the S2 because too many people were stacking the neutral S1 and they deliberately wanted it to understeer at the limit. What Tim is saying is that you don't need new tyres for that, you can change the geometry to achieve it. But for real track speed you'll want wider fronts and potentially stickies like A048Rs or 888s.
I want to swap my pads but cannot stand brake squeal and need to retain 'road-legal' brakes just in case of an accident and subsequent insurance investigation (using non-road-legal brakes won't be good news with the insurers as they're a fundamental safety item, however 'better' the race pads may be).
I used Mintex 1144 on the VXT and they worked well, but not sure if they're hard enough for track work. Both the 'sensible' (blue RS42) and the 'race' (black RS14) Pagids are marked 'track use only' in the Lotus accessories catalogue and by resellers (e.g. Hangar 111) so apart from being expensive, it's not clear whether they are road legal or not.
(I'm quite aware that a sensible driver with decent hard pads will get them warm as part of any drive and will therefore be safer, but insurance companies don't approach these things with common sense. I'm perfectly capable of ensuring my brakes are warm enough to be safe in all conditions, and besides if you run into someone in town due to the brakes being cold, then you're going too fast in town. Even full-race pads will stop you with a heavy foot on the brake from dead cold, in a car as light as an Elise. But insurance companies and MOT have rules...)
I've used EBC Green (both on unservoed S1 Elises, servoed VXT, and an MX-5) and found them utter rubbish, to the point that I actively recommend people avoid Greenduff pads. However it's not an EBC thing, because I ran EBC Red pads on my blown 993 and they were very strong, no squeal, and no fade even at a summer trackday at Brands GP on trackday tyres. The Reds were a bit grumbly, you could feel the extra abrasion and I don't think the discs would last as long, but they were an excellent road and session trackday pad on a 1400 kg car. I'm not sure if they'd like constant hours on track - my car couldn't put up with more than 10 laps in a go anyway due to heat soak and no chargecooler.
I chose the Reds on the basis of the indie specialist that serviced all my 911s recommending them, they used them in their 944 race car in full-race conditions. They said the Reds were adequate for the temperatures they were seeing in races. They certainly worked well on my car. But then again, my Exige S feels like it could lap all day long without a break - apart from the brakes getting hot and grumbly. So whether the Reds would be enough given that the Exige is a lot lighter than the Porker, up for grabs. Working fine for a 20 lap race with the 944s is all well and good but the 944 was a stripped race car and considerably lighter than the 993. Assuming 20 laps at a time is enough on a trackday (often is for me) I reckon the Reds would be the best compromise for my car, unless the Yellows bite from cold *and* are road legal
I'd appreciate it if you write up what you think of the Yellows when you get them on - both in terms of road driving in the winter (from cold) and ultimate bite. I guess you won't be able to tell whether the pads are too much for the heat dispersal capacity of the discs and calipers until you do a brake-heavy trackday though (Snetterton?). I'll be going to the next two LoT days (Snetterton and Brands Indy again IIRC) and may swap the pads after Snet.
I'm sure the standard pads on an Exige are man enough for the job but I have absolute paranoia about braking (which ruins my absolute lap times, I'm reasonably quick through the corners but always brake too early) due to one of my brake discs snapping in two at Goodwood in a souped up trackday 205 GTi... one or two seconds earlier and I'd have been killed. So I always like utterly OTT brakes that can take an absolute hammering. I always had confidence in my Porsches as their brakes were huge and powerful. The Exige is much lighter and doesn't need overkill brakes but for peace of mind... Would like to get away from drilled discs as well - the failure in the 205 was caused by weaknesses due to the holes
ETA - Tim makes a good point regarding driver training and geo. However you can bung 195s on the front and on their own, they *will* reduce understeer, but the best bet is to then have the geometry looked at again. This can dial in as much or as little understeer as you wish. You can dial in a tailhappy car but you have to be comfortable with this, it's a bit edgy on the road. The VX220 turbo I had started life with 175 Bridgestone fronts which were the only available tyre (17" fronts, you see). Too much understeer, even though they were comfy, so I got an Exige-sized set of wheels (16" fronts) and bunged on 195 width Toyo 888 trackday stickies. The car transformed from a mild-understeer floaty thing into a tramlining, incredibly responsive steering, throttle adjustable missile. Best thing I ever did to that car. It didn't handle substantially differently from my current Exige S apart from the VXT having softer springs and slower weight transfer within bends; it was a bit easier to gently oversteer as long as you didn't let the turbo spool up while you were balancing the power. So I reckon you'd have the same increase in sharpness by putting fatter front tyres on. I'm pretty sure Lotus deliberately put skinny fronts on the S2 because too many people were stacking the neutral S1 and they deliberately wanted it to understeer at the limit. What Tim is saying is that you don't need new tyres for that, you can change the geometry to achieve it. But for real track speed you'll want wider fronts and potentially stickies like A048Rs or 888s.
Edited by cyberface on Monday 29th December 20:33
Thanks for the feedback. I didn't think there were such things as non-road legal pads - is this correct? In terms of an MOT they measure brake performance and providing that is within tolerance then this is a pass? The info from Tipper and a few others was that performance from cold was excellent and they did not need to be up to race temperature to be effective. He also uses them on the road no problems and has very little dust problems and concludes they are better than the standard Lotus pads. I think everyone agrees that the Greenstuff pads seem to be pants.
On the tyres front I dive my car every day and is not just for trackdays so perhaps I will stick with 175 fronts and adjust geo to suit a bit better (don't fancy the semi slicks for the winter driving - although my friend that runs them says they are great fun for sliding). Where is the best place for geo - Plans Motorsport? Is there anyone else close to Christchurch who knows what they are doing?
On the tyres front I dive my car every day and is not just for trackdays so perhaps I will stick with 175 fronts and adjust geo to suit a bit better (don't fancy the semi slicks for the winter driving - although my friend that runs them says they are great fun for sliding). Where is the best place for geo - Plans Motorsport? Is there anyone else close to Christchurch who knows what they are doing?
The guys that owns/runs EBC came onto this site a few months back after he felt a few people were rubbishing EBC in general rather than specific products.
He went onto great detail about what pads were available and what his opinion was on which were suitable for what conditions for the Elige.
A few people that were part of the original conversation were lucky enough to have the relvant pads to their use, sent to them FOC, I was one of them. I received Yellow, as I believe most did and have been extremely pleased with them. They are far better then the OEM and overall I think others have said better than Mintex.
If I can find the orignal post I will edit this and add a link
Here's one but not the original
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
Here is the original, Andy Freeman, the owner of EBC, has his comments on page 2 of the thread
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
He went onto great detail about what pads were available and what his opinion was on which were suitable for what conditions for the Elige.
A few people that were part of the original conversation were lucky enough to have the relvant pads to their use, sent to them FOC, I was one of them. I received Yellow, as I believe most did and have been extremely pleased with them. They are far better then the OEM and overall I think others have said better than Mintex.
If I can find the orignal post I will edit this and add a link
Here's one but not the original
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
Here is the original, Andy Freeman, the owner of EBC, has his comments on page 2 of the thread
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
Edited by Beachbum on Monday 29th December 21:32
Edited by Beachbum on Monday 29th December 21:40
I've never been an EBC basher - I definitely bash their Green pad but I've always liked the Red pad. However I thought the Yellow pad wasn't road legal - it's described as 'full race' on their website and there's no mention of the R-90 EC certification required to be a road legal brake pad.
If I'm wrong, I'd love to be corrected because I'd probably go for the yellow pads...
If I'm wrong, I'd love to be corrected because I'd probably go for the yellow pads...
LRGS2 said:
had a bad experience with Pagid RS42s squealing and had to take them off!
Funny how opinions of these vary.DamienCBR ain't a huge fan, experiencing squealing.
I personally think they're the absolute mutts nuts. I hardly ever experience squealing with mine, and when I do, its very minor indeed.
Maybe the type of disc the Pagids are mated to makes a difference? I have the Eliseparts ali-belled jobbies on. Coupled with the RS42's, the car stops as though you've chucked a dozen anchors out the back.
EBC Greens on Elises - bad
EBC Yellows on Elises - by all accounts very good, road and track
If you're not a fan of EBC for whatever reason, don't want Pagids for another, then consider SBS Protrack. Very very good pad, similar to a Pagid RS42 in my experience, but a lot less expensive. If I got another Elise, that's what I'd continue to use. Nothing bad to say about them.
Re: Plans - they've geo'd all my cars and I heartily recommend them. Very helpful in getting the most out of the car for whatever application you desire.
EBC Yellows on Elises - by all accounts very good, road and track
If you're not a fan of EBC for whatever reason, don't want Pagids for another, then consider SBS Protrack. Very very good pad, similar to a Pagid RS42 in my experience, but a lot less expensive. If I got another Elise, that's what I'd continue to use. Nothing bad to say about them.
Re: Plans - they've geo'd all my cars and I heartily recommend them. Very helpful in getting the most out of the car for whatever application you desire.
cyberface said:
I've never been an EBC basher - I definitely bash their Green pad but I've always liked the Red pad. However I thought the Yellow pad wasn't road legal - it's described as 'full race' on their website and there's no mention of the R-90 EC certification required to be a road legal brake pad.
If I'm wrong, I'd love to be corrected because I'd probably go for the yellow pads...
Andy Chapman (head honcho at EBC) said that plod use yellowstuffs on traffic cars. To be honest its highly unlikely that the type of brake pads would ever be picked up in the event of an insurance investigation following an accident.If I'm wrong, I'd love to be corrected because I'd probably go for the yellow pads...
Anyway they work very well on the Elise and have stood up OK to light track use (better than Mintexx 1144). I've no problems with squeel and the yellows throw off a lot less dust than the Mintex 1144. For no reason other than wanting to see what they're like I'm trying out RS42s next.
TIPPER said:
cyberface said:
I've never been an EBC basher - I definitely bash their Green pad but I've always liked the Red pad. However I thought the Yellow pad wasn't road legal - it's described as 'full race' on their website and there's no mention of the R-90 EC certification required to be a road legal brake pad.
If I'm wrong, I'd love to be corrected because I'd probably go for the yellow pads...
Andy Chapman (head honcho at EBC) said that plod use yellowstuffs on traffic cars. To be honest its highly unlikely that the type of brake pads would ever be picked up in the event of an insurance investigation following an accident.If I'm wrong, I'd love to be corrected because I'd probably go for the yellow pads...
Anyway they work very well on the Elise and have stood up OK to light track use (better than Mintexx 1144). I've no problems with squeel and the yellows throw off a lot less dust than the Mintex 1144. For no reason other than wanting to see what they're like I'm trying out RS42s next.
Ta.
Regards the RS42's, I experienced absolutely hellish squealing from these.
Removed them & fitted the adhesive backing pads, virtually no squealing at all now, even on track.
You can get a backing gel as well, but the pads work for me.
Only complaint I have with the RS42's is the amount of brake dust they give off. My wheels are now more raspberry than pink!
Wallsy
Removed them & fitted the adhesive backing pads, virtually no squealing at all now, even on track.
You can get a backing gel as well, but the pads work for me.
Only complaint I have with the RS42's is the amount of brake dust they give off. My wheels are now more raspberry than pink!
Wallsy
I'd stick with the standard tyres designed for the Elise S2 - as I recently posted on another thread, Lotus are the best in the world at ride and handling and spend months painstakingly working out exactly which compound to use, the result being bespoke tyres for the S2 Elise. However, I think Lotus do have some wheel/tyre recommendations for changing the handling balance and reactions of the car.
Without wishing to sound critical, maybe first off you could modify the way that you're driving the car? I've never found understeer to be an issue in my S2 111S and I've tracked it in all conditions from a hilariously wet November day at Bedford Autodrome to 30 degrees of heat at the ring. It's all to do with the way you turn in and manage the weight transfer and steering angles etc in the corner.
Without wishing to sound critical, maybe first off you could modify the way that you're driving the car? I've never found understeer to be an issue in my S2 111S and I've tracked it in all conditions from a hilariously wet November day at Bedford Autodrome to 30 degrees of heat at the ring. It's all to do with the way you turn in and manage the weight transfer and steering angles etc in the corner.
LRGS2 said:
Question on tyres now. I have been very pleased with my Yoko AD07s but want to reduce understeer on the front. Can I 195 section tyres to my standard 6 spoke S2 wheels or is a better geo set up recommended?
I've been having the same problem with my S2 on track,too much understeer.Apparently its been designed like this by Lotus to stop newbies losing the rear and sticking them in hedgerows.
I'm going down the geo route,most likely at Back on Track in Guildford(friend of mine has just had his done there and was very happy)so i'll report back when its done
Will be fitting Pagid RS42's shortly too
Maybe see you at Goodwood one day LRGS2,i'm not too far from there and have started coming down a bit more
I've had several full geo's done at Plans, Very pleased with the results.
I had Pagids fitted to my Noble, they were awsome and only squealed when cold and in slow moving traffic not a pad for the easily embarrased.
All in all the pagids were worth the extra noise.IMO.
I'm going to fit Pagid's in the Spring to my S2 Exige (might as well get a bit of use out of the OEM's).
F.C.
I had Pagids fitted to my Noble, they were awsome and only squealed when cold and in slow moving traffic not a pad for the easily embarrased.
All in all the pagids were worth the extra noise.IMO.
I'm going to fit Pagid's in the Spring to my S2 Exige (might as well get a bit of use out of the OEM's).
F.C.
I have 42's all round on my Exige S and the improvement in braking feel and power over the OE set up is well worth a wee bit of screeching when in traffic (not the Exiges' ideal location anyway) - I kind of like it, adds to the whole "this car is a bit different" syndrome? Plus the levels of brake dust are way lower than OE.
My Yoko's are well on the way out, fronts near/at the markers (were on the car when I bought it 5k miles ago) and the rears are getting close after only 3k road use only. The car is very "light on its' toes", in this sub-zero snap we are experiencing - I am going to try the 888's for no other reason than they are about £100 cheaper and I am hoping they will eliminate a noise from the rear that sounds like the wheel bearings are shot, which they aren't?
My Yoko's are well on the way out, fronts near/at the markers (were on the car when I bought it 5k miles ago) and the rears are getting close after only 3k road use only. The car is very "light on its' toes", in this sub-zero snap we are experiencing - I am going to try the 888's for no other reason than they are about £100 cheaper and I am hoping they will eliminate a noise from the rear that sounds like the wheel bearings are shot, which they aren't?
I have tried EBC (green, yellow and red) in my race car (not an elise but similar weight, power, cornering speed etc) several times and always ended up throwing them away after a couple of races. In short they took too many laps to get a decent amount of stopping ability, a new set of pads was cheaper than a new front end on the car!
I've always ended up back on Ferodo DS3000's although have been happy with Mintex M1144 and M1155's in the past.
I am going to have a chat with performance friction at the Autosport show, might give them a try.
I've always ended up back on Ferodo DS3000's although have been happy with Mintex M1144 and M1155's in the past.
I am going to have a chat with performance friction at the Autosport show, might give them a try.
denisb said:
I have tried EBC (green, yellow and red) in my race car (not an elise but similar weight, power, cornering speed etc) several times and always ended up throwing them away after a couple of races. In short they took too many laps to get a decent amount of stopping ability, a new set of pads was cheaper than a new front end on the car!
I've always ended up back on Ferodo DS3000's although have been happy with Mintex M1144 and M1155's in the past.
I am going to have a chat with performance friction at the Autosport show, might give them a try.
How long ago? EBC changed the compound on the yellows this year.I've always ended up back on Ferodo DS3000's although have been happy with Mintex M1144 and M1155's in the past.
I am going to have a chat with performance friction at the Autosport show, might give them a try.
TIPPER said:
denisb said:
I have tried EBC (green, yellow and red) in my race car (not an elise but similar weight, power, cornering speed etc) several times and always ended up throwing them away after a couple of races. In short they took too many laps to get a decent amount of stopping ability, a new set of pads was cheaper than a new front end on the car!
I've always ended up back on Ferodo DS3000's although have been happy with Mintex M1144 and M1155's in the past.
I am going to have a chat with performance friction at the Autosport show, might give them a try.
How long ago? EBC changed the compound on the yellows this year.I've always ended up back on Ferodo DS3000's although have been happy with Mintex M1144 and M1155's in the past.
I am going to have a chat with performance friction at the Autosport show, might give them a try.
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