Upgrade existing car or swap?

[Chris71]

Considering either splashing out on some new bits for the S3, or moving to a V8S or Griff. I'm pretty chuffed with the S on the whole, mostly just contemplating 'a' change and what to do with a recent windfall.

Things I like are:

• The steering feedback (really is excellent - way better than a certain Mazda roadster I came from)
• Steady state stability once you've set it up in a turn
• Throttle adjustability
• The fact you can have fun at pretty sensible speeds - both the engine and the chassis have attainable limits
• Ride is compliant enough for B-road use
• The noise

Things I don't like are:

• Car feels a bit reluctant to change direction - it's as good as any other S I've driven on standard suspension, but just feels a bit heavy on initial turn in [new ARB maybe?]
• Steering rack is too 'slow' rack IMHO - 4+ turns lock-to-lock leaves you really scrabbling to get enough lock on in time if the back end goes
• High speed stability - feels a bit floaty at motorway speeds and above, again no different to the other examples I've driven at that rate, but could be better
• Brakes could be a little sharper and more powerful perhaps [recently overhauled, so confident they're as good as they're going to get as standard]
• Would prefer a LSD for hooliganism, but not a big issue in the real world arguably

I think if I keep the car, the main thing I'll be looking at is a suspension overhaul and geometry setup. It also depends on the market to a certain extent - it may be a lot easier to upgrade the existing car than swap it to something different.

[Orophin]

Very true, it is much easier and possible more cost effective to change car. But bear in mind you'll probably keep upgrading whatever you have. Now is a good time to change car, due to the economic climate...our S's are maybe worth a little bit less a year ago but Griffiths have come down even more. I think Cerberas have come down the most, probably due to running costs but tempting none the less.

I think we all get to this stage whatever TVR we drive. I must admit I'm going through the traumatic experience in trying to decide what I want to do, upgrade or change cars. Still have got nowhere in deciding.

Edited by Orophin on Thursday 1st January 13:10

[Barkychoc]

If you want to quicken up the steering I have a recon chevette quick rack in my garage I think it is 2.4 turns lock to lock (It might be 2 I'll confirm if you're interested) - its not a straight swap you'd have to get a steering specialist to fit your track rods to it but its just kicking around in my garage gathering dust.
If you wanted to see if you could make it work make me an offer.

Mods if this is unacceptable then delete this post.

[martym]

Hi
How long have you owned your s ? I have only had mine 9wks & also came from owning Mazda mx5`s (which I did like to an extent). The thing you get with an S over mx`s is they are more exclusive & rare jmo.
The things you like-dislike about yours are very similar to my thoughts, must say am looking forward to driving in warm dry weather with roof off. After which I will be able to really say if I like my S & want to keep for good few years. Know me though I do get board with cars quite easy (have thought maybe a VX220 would be a nice NEXT car ???)

My car has had new suspension & prev owner who fitted it says it drives much better than when old standard stuff was on. mine has Gaz fitted which is adjustable (still not sure if mine is set right, guess down to individual whether its set hard or soft)
I have fitted new door mirrors which does make driving a little more pleasurable as rabbit type mirrors are crap imo)

[Chris71]

martym said:

Hi
How long have you owned your s ? I have only had mine 9wks & also came from owning Mazda mx5`s (which I did like to an extent). The thing you get with an S over mx`s is they are more exclusive & rare jmo.
The things you like-dislike about yours are very similar to my thoughts, must say am looking forward to driving in warm dry weather with roof off. After which I will be able to really say if I like my S & want to keep for good few years. Know me though I do get board with cars quite easy (have thought maybe a VX220 would be a nice NEXT car ???)

My car has had new suspension & prev owner who fitted it says it drives much better than when old standard stuff was on. mine has Gaz fitted which is adjustable (still not sure if mine is set right, guess down to individual whether its set hard or soft)
I have fitted new door mirrors which does make driving a little more pleasurable as rabbit type mirrors are crap imo)

I've had mine just under a year now, which is something of a record for me (I tend to get bored quickly too!)

I love the fact that it feels special even if you're sat in a traffic jam. The Mazda never had that sense of occasion. The increase in straight line oomph also feels bigger than the figures suggest and that's great for overtaking. Like I said, it also has steering feel far in advance of the MX5, it's just a pity about that it's so low ratio.

As for the suspension, I wonder if stiffer anti-roll bars may be an important part? The ride doesn't feel particularly soft or under-damped in bump, it's just in roll - there's that intial turn in (unsprung weight transfer for any vehicle dynamics geeks...) that doesn't feel as sharp as it could be.

Barkychoc said:

If you want to quicken up the steering I have a recon chevette quick rack in my garage I think it is 2.4 turns lock to lock (It might be 2 I'll confirm if you're interested) - its not a straight swap you'd have to get a steering specialist to fit your track rods to it but its just kicking around in my garage gathering dust.
If you wanted to see if you could make it work make me an offer.

Thanks Chris - it's an intersting idea, but I'd be slightly wary about trying it myself. It is a big heavy engine over the front end and I guess TVR had its reasons for fitting that rack with that geometry. I also don't really have much time for major mods - might even leave the suspension changes to someone else if I go ahead.

[Barkychoc]

Steve Heath drop links on the ARB might improve things LINK

And Poly ARB Bushes - here's the link to the manufacturers website LINK

Reading between the lines if you have a 26mm ARB thats the thickest there is.

[V8Smith]

Chris71 said:

martym said:

Hi
How long have you owned your s ? I have only had mine 9wks & also came from owning Mazda mx5`s (which I did like to an extent). The thing you get with an S over mx`s is they are more exclusive & rare jmo.
The things you like-dislike about yours are very similar to my thoughts, must say am looking forward to driving in warm dry weather with roof off. After which I will be able to really say if I like my S & want to keep for good few years. Know me though I do get board with cars quite easy (have thought maybe a VX220 would be a nice NEXT car ???)

My car has had new suspension & prev owner who fitted it says it drives much better than when old standard stuff was on. mine has Gaz fitted which is adjustable (still not sure if mine is set right, guess down to individual whether its set hard or soft)
I have fitted new door mirrors which does make driving a little more pleasurable as rabbit type mirrors are crap imo)

I've had mine just under a year now, which is something of a record for me (I tend to get bored quickly too!)

I love the fact that it feels special even if you're sat in a traffic jam. The Mazda never had that sense of occasion. The increase in straight line oomph also feels bigger than the figures suggest and that's great for overtaking. Like I said, it also has steering feel far in advance of the MX5, it's just a pity about that it's so low ratio.

As for the suspension, I wonder if stiffer anti-roll bars may be an important part? The ride doesn't feel particularly soft or under-damped in bump, it's just in roll - there's that intial turn in (unsprung weight transfer for any vehicle dynamics geeks...) that doesn't feel as sharp as it could be.

Barkychoc said:

If you want to quicken up the steering I have a recon chevette quick rack in my garage I think it is 2.4 turns lock to lock (It might be 2 I'll confirm if you're interested) - its not a straight swap you'd have to get a steering specialist to fit your track rods to it but its just kicking around in my garage gathering dust.
If you wanted to see if you could make it work make me an offer.

Thanks Chris - it's an intersting idea, but I'd be slightly wary about trying it myself. It is a big heavy engine over the front end and I guess TVR had its reasons for fitting that rack with that geometry. I also don't really have much time for major mods - might even leave the suspension changes to someone else if I go ahead.

As far as I know, the S rack is from a chevette, the V8S one is anyway?? I upgraded the V8S rack to the later Griff rack which improved things. Personally I would upgrade and buy a V8S, its a fantastic car, as a second car, cant be beaten for fun in my opinion, in my case anyway, it stopped me wanting to change up to a Griff etc.. I also had Gaz Gold shocks on the V8S this really helps the handling, means you can power round a bend with accuracy and turn in was very good.

Mike

[mep12345]

V8Smith said:

I upgraded the V8S rack to the later Griff rack which improved things.

Was this a straight swap? If so what is the Griff rack off originally as it may make a better option thatn recon for the rest of us if its available.

[CTE]

I bought my S1 about 5 years ago (having very fond memories of an S3 I owned 18 years ago)...little did I realise the minor but important differences. However, I have stuck with the car and gradually improved it, to the point now where its almost bloody fantastic. Sure there are dynamically superior cars out there, but for bang for buck, there is little that will touch them, never mind the rarity value etc.
The critical things are spring rate, damper settings, and tyre choice. My car is now very responsive to turn in, does not tramline, and rides reasonable well, but I know this can be improved with better quality shock adsorbers (££).
If I were in your position, I`d probably buy a V8S (and then fit stiffer springs etc), but I have fitted a BOA V6 Cosworth engine to my car, which I prefer to the Rover, although I do agree the Rover lump does sound nice.

[Barkychoc]

mep12345 said:

V8Smith said:

I upgraded the V8S rack to the later Griff rack which improved things.

Was this a straight swap? If so what is the Griff rack off originally as it may make a better option thatn recon for the rest of us if its available.

Don't forget V8S / Griff have wider track than S1-S3.

[Chris71]

Thanks for the links Chris - will take a browse. How easy is it to fit a new ARB? Could always give that a go before contemplating more expensive spring/damper changes.

As regards the V8S - it is a distinct possibility. However, it depends on how different the V8 feels. I'm pretty happy with the S3 in most respects and I think a change of car (as opposed to an upgrade) would have to offer something really different.

I'm not usually of the modifying persuasion, but this might be a special case. IMHO my S3 is close to mint both mechanically and cosmetically, but it does have a history (previously registered cat D). While both I and the other people who've looked at the car (it was sourced to requirement for the previous owner by Rob Ingleby for example...) rate it, I'm aware its history might create issues in selling. If that's the case, then the argument for keeping hold of it and modifying grows stronger.

Maybe I will think about that rack...

[Barkychoc]

TVRCARParts have ARB's and I know Sean (Trickjohn) fitted one to his car as it was missing.
I don't think it is to hard to fit provided your engine mounts are not too saggy - if they are the bottom of the sump can be touching, Ketvrin did a post on this somewhere.
Worth checking that you don't have a 26mm ARB already.

[V8Smith]

Barkychoc said:

mep12345 said:

V8Smith said:

I upgraded the V8S rack to the later Griff rack which improved things.

Was this a straight swap? If so what is the Griff rack off originally as it may make a better option thatn recon for the rest of us if its available.

Don't forget V8S / Griff have wider track than S1-S3.

This was a straight swap, although I didnt fit it, I bought it from David Gerald TVR I think?? As has been said this might be a straight swap due to the wider track of the V8S, but if you ask at Geralds, Im sure they will know. Cost about £100 IIRC

Mike

[Sweet Thunder]

V8Smith said:

Barkychoc said:

mep12345 said:

V8Smith said:

I upgraded the V8S rack to the later Griff rack which improved things.

Was this a straight swap? If so what is the Griff rack off originally as it may make a better option thatn recon for the rest of us if its available.

Don't forget V8S / Griff have wider track than S1-S3.

This was a straight swap, although I didnt fit it, I bought it from David Gerald TVR I think?? As has been said this might be a straight swap due to the wider track of the V8S, but if you ask at Geralds, Im sure they will know. Cost about £100 IIRC

Mike

As part of the conversion from RHD to LHD I've fitted a V8S steering rack to my S2. The rack is 5cm wider because of the longer track rods, which means you either need to swap the track rods, or cut 2,5 cm more thread and take 2,5cm off both rods. Track rods are mild steel, so easy to cut thread if you have a M14 cutting tool. The V8S rack is more direct than the V6 version.

[Barkychoc]

Did you find any issues with the V8S rack as theoretically the geometry is not quite right as it allows for the wider track of the V8S.
I ask as its the same issue with my power steering rack - the geometry is slightly different to the V8S.

[Sweet Thunder]

Barkychoc said:

Did you find any issues with the V8S rack as theoretically the geometry is not quite right as it allows for the wider track of the V8S.
I ask as its the same issue with my power steering rack - the geometry is slightly different to the V8S.

The rack itself (length from balljoint to balljoint) has the same width and the same fixing points as the V6 rack. By taking off length of the track rods they become the same length as V6 ones, so all in all it does not affect geometry. Is your PS rack wider across the rack, or across the track rods?

[Barkychoc]

Both measurements are the same as you describe.
What is slightly different is the location of the inner balljoints - thats the balljoints under the gaiters - they are slightly further out on the PAS rack (a few mm) compared to the V8S one.
It will have to be a serious problem for me to take the PAS rack off

Edited by Barkychoc on Friday 2nd January 22:08

[Chris71]

Did somebody say the V8S rack is more direct?

The V8S does sound like a distinct possibility now - ironically because I drove a Chimera today.

I absolutely loved the creamy-smooth powertrain (presumably the same as the V8S?), the more solid feel and the better brakes. But the performance increase wasn't as dramatic as expected (compared to the S3), the PAS steering was a little light and, while it felt nice and direct, it felt a bit imprecise over undulating ground.

In most areas it did feel a bit better than the S (certainly more solid), but the differences weren't huge in any area and, driving the same route afterwards in mine, I suddenly understood the comments about the S feeling more lively.

That V8 is just so smooth though and the Bourg Warner 'box is lovely.

[Barkychoc]

If you've driven a V8 with the Borg Warner gearbox remember the V8S doesn't have this box it has the older Rover LT77 gearbox, which can be variable in change quality but never something to get excited about.
Choice of transmission oil can have a dramatic effect apparently, and I will be changing mine.

In terms of smoothness I have no idea - my exhaust is original and I have no idea if it has been fiddled with but JEEZ it is loud!

That S Club Noisiest V8S trophy will be mine!

[Chris71]

This Chimera was a little strange aurally. It had a very loud, burblerly V8 idle care of a sports exhaust, but it was actually quieter than the S3 on the move (from inside at least).

Strangely a lot of Griff/Chimera owners who've previously had an S say they prefer the sound of the V6 and I can see where they're coming from. That V8 is just so goregously creamy to drive though.