997 gt3 cup v 996gt3 cup in performance
Discussion
Hi Guys i am new on here and new to racing just finished my first season racing I started with a 2004 996 gt3 cup car fitted with a recardo sequental which i had a great season in porsche open in ireland and in august sold it because i got good money for it and replaced it with a 2006 997 gt3 ex parker racing car but the thing is i dont find it a lot quicker than the 996 and i really thought it would be Now a lot could be down to my inexperience as the car has won races in carerra cup in 2006 and Gt cup this year but i was just wondering what you guys thought the difference in laptimes would be and what makes the difference between both cars
As you had a sequential box in the 996, it was, or should have been a bit quicker then a standard H box car, say half a second or so. That brings the difference down between the two to say 1.5 secs working on the basis that it is generally excepted that the 997 can be up to 2 seconds a lap quicker then a 996 on a short to medium circuit. The power output of the 997 at 420bhp against the 996 at 400 (flywheels) may make up a 3 to 5 tenths margin so lets assume that over a bog standard 996 GT3 cup car, like mine, a 997 with sequential and another 20bhp could add up to a second a lap.
The other second comes from the chassis, the improvements generally and rose jointing etc etc along with a host of other little goodies the 996 hasn't got. The real benefits only really start to show when you push hard, that's where it comes into it's own.
I guess it comes down to the type of racing you do, we do Britcar Endurance and the 996's came 1st, 2nd and 4th in the overall GT championship for 2008 beating all the class 1 cars which also, maybe unfairly, included the 997's which were not that competitive against Moslers, Vipers, V8 monsters etc etc, I stress, the 996's are all class two cars, so it's a prime example of the benefits of under-stressed engineering,and a high level of reliability, that seems to be a Porsche prerogative.
For 2009 the 997's will be class 2 and should then be competitive against others in class 2, the 996's will be class 3 so that both will be able to work their magic within classes that make sense.
The other second comes from the chassis, the improvements generally and rose jointing etc etc along with a host of other little goodies the 996 hasn't got. The real benefits only really start to show when you push hard, that's where it comes into it's own.
I guess it comes down to the type of racing you do, we do Britcar Endurance and the 996's came 1st, 2nd and 4th in the overall GT championship for 2008 beating all the class 1 cars which also, maybe unfairly, included the 997's which were not that competitive against Moslers, Vipers, V8 monsters etc etc, I stress, the 996's are all class two cars, so it's a prime example of the benefits of under-stressed engineering,and a high level of reliability, that seems to be a Porsche prerogative.
For 2009 the 997's will be class 2 and should then be competitive against others in class 2, the 996's will be class 3 so that both will be able to work their magic within classes that make sense.
The reality in from your post and basic car spec is your old car was faster than a normal 996 to start with so the ex Parker standard 997 Cup spec will naturally not hold much advantage.
The thing you have remember about allot of the 996's is that they have been around outside a controlled formula for a while, the 997's are only just comming into this category now. As a result specifications have changed from one to another, particularly in engine power so the actual difference is even greyer than it was you may not even know it. In a straight line there was sometimes virtually no difference between our 997 and a class 2 996. A 997 is aerodynamicaly more efficient as well.
The simple fact your car had a sequential box on it will make it I believe at least 1 second a lap faster than an equivelent powered 996 not to mention significantly easier to drive at speed than a H pattern by virtue of less complication and risk.
The single biggest difference between the two though is in the chassis. As Rod quite rightly said you really have to drive a 997 very hard indeed to get a competitive time out of it. From my experience thats all in vain if the set up is even very slightly out on 997 because the chassis is so much more advanced, every thing you do on it has a counter reaction you would'nt always expect.
So in short I would expect looking at old times around a 2 to 3 second a lap difference between two genuine spec 996 and 997 Cup cars driven hard by experienced Porsche drivers.
The thing you have remember about allot of the 996's is that they have been around outside a controlled formula for a while, the 997's are only just comming into this category now. As a result specifications have changed from one to another, particularly in engine power so the actual difference is even greyer than it was you may not even know it. In a straight line there was sometimes virtually no difference between our 997 and a class 2 996. A 997 is aerodynamicaly more efficient as well.
The simple fact your car had a sequential box on it will make it I believe at least 1 second a lap faster than an equivelent powered 996 not to mention significantly easier to drive at speed than a H pattern by virtue of less complication and risk.
The single biggest difference between the two though is in the chassis. As Rod quite rightly said you really have to drive a 997 very hard indeed to get a competitive time out of it. From my experience thats all in vain if the set up is even very slightly out on 997 because the chassis is so much more advanced, every thing you do on it has a counter reaction you would'nt always expect.
So in short I would expect looking at old times around a 2 to 3 second a lap difference between two genuine spec 996 and 997 Cup cars driven hard by experienced Porsche drivers.
Hi Mark karl here... what times u doing around mondello at mo in the 997..?? the 997 is a far better car than a 996...!! in your car (brothers old car) we were about 2-3 seconds faster than a well driven 996...!! the 997 is in that case a fair bit faster than a 996...a 996 is a fast version of the road car were as the 997 is a proper race car...!! get out testing and get some miles in the car..!! all about experience in drivin a 997 quick..!! if u want to come testing in england with our team come over with us... i can get sean edwards to show u around..!!karl...
picture of us testing in brands recently..!!
come testing with us in england...you will learn alot more than testing in mondello.... setup is very important also..!!
Edited by kleonard on Saturday 3rd January 04:26
picture of us testing in brands recently..!!
come testing with us in england...you will learn alot more than testing in mondello.... setup is very important also..!!
Edited by kleonard on Saturday 3rd January 04:31
Edited by kleonard on Saturday 3rd January 04:34
Thaks for the advice lads I think there is two thigs one is that my 996 was a very good car and a bit better than a standard 996 the other is i havent had enough time in the 997 yet and need to do a bit more testing and hopefully get a bit quicker and maybe do a round or two of britcar and gt cup next year
Hi Karl
Thanks for the offer i might take you up on that if i can find the money Also I have not really ran the car on the national at mondello apart from a track day with passengers and was doing 59s i have been to kirkistown and was doing 102s ps what are you guys doing for next year and is the 2008/09 997 much quicker than the last one
Hi Karl
Thanks for the offer i might take you up on that if i can find the money Also I have not really ran the car on the national at mondello apart from a track day with passengers and was doing 59s i have been to kirkistown and was doing 102s ps what are you guys doing for next year and is the 2008/09 997 much quicker than the last one
hi... no the 08/09 car isnt much quicker than a 06 car...it has 20bhp more but is heavier..!! it has cats..!! it took the top teams a race or two to figure them out setup wise as the shocks are different also..!! I think the cars aree about a second faster than a 05/06/07 car around a lap...!! Michael is getting a 09 car in march brand new and im on the look out for a car at mo..prob doing carrera cup..!! u should leave your car in england for feb/march and come testing...its not that expensive if u own a car...im sure our lads would look after car for u..!! if u want to sell your car it i might be interested in buying it back..!!
Edited by kleonard on Saturday 3rd January 19:23
Edited by kleonard on Saturday 3rd January 19:24
Hi Karl sounds good yes i would sell the car as i would like to get a 05 996 RSR but i would need €85000 euro think it cost me 90 k when i changed my money but you could get one cheaper in the uk becaus of sterling at the moment but at least you know this is a good one with a bit of history ps i would like to do the testing if i had time whatever car i have
Edited by Markgt3 on Saturday 3rd January 19:41
[quote=kleonard]yea... unfortunately for u sterling is to good against euro... great bargins out there now..!! why do u keep upgrading car if u havnt good the best out off the old ones..???
call michael and come testing with us in spain in feb...
I just like trying the different cars for the fun of it really but i am not bodered about selling the 997 if someone wanted to buy it i would sell it but if not i will race it i dont think i would be able to go to spain in feb as in the tractor business it gets very busy then i will just have to get the hang of mondello first maybe you might come down and put a few laps on the car and give me a few pointers and set up the motec as you know the circuit well
call michael and come testing with us in spain in feb...
I just like trying the different cars for the fun of it really but i am not bodered about selling the 997 if someone wanted to buy it i would sell it but if not i will race it i dont think i would be able to go to spain in feb as in the tractor business it gets very busy then i will just have to get the hang of mondello first maybe you might come down and put a few laps on the car and give me a few pointers and set up the motec as you know the circuit well
when u headin to mondello testing..?? seen car at topgear looked good..!! yea better just get testing in mondello..!! id say the car is capible of doing 54s around short track... i know we were doing 55s on first day on old michelins...and not going mad in it also..!! pole for carrera cup was on long track was 1min 40sec...!! prob this time of year is getting temp in tyres..!!
rsr would cost a fortune to run properly...!! and you might not go any quicker..!! get competitive in 997 first..!! spend thge money testing..!! then do gt cup race in uk..!!
i heard a few irish lads drove your car in spa and they loved it... i heard they all want 997s now... i know of a car going cheap..!!
u can learn alot from the data if u know how to use... get someone to do a few quick laps then u go out and u print out data and see were your slower..!!
rsr would cost a fortune to run properly...!! and you might not go any quicker..!! get competitive in 997 first..!! spend thge money testing..!! then do gt cup race in uk..!!
i heard a few irish lads drove your car in spa and they loved it... i heard they all want 997s now... i know of a car going cheap..!!
u can learn alot from the data if u know how to use... get someone to do a few quick laps then u go out and u print out data and see were your slower..!!
Edited by kleonard on Saturday 3rd January 20:32
Edited by kleonard on Saturday 3rd January 20:34
Yes spa was good jim o reilly and paul gray were very quick in the car and loved the 997 but i dont think anybody will upgrade to a 997 this year maybe jim might but he has a quick car he just needs to get it sorted out
I dont think i will be getting near the time from carerra cup due to my limited ability and small buget against big buget and big team profession driver etc etc but i would hope to do 56/7s on the national this year and work from there
The main problem i have is consistency i can do 1 quick lap but not lots of quick laps for some reason but i guess it comes down to experience and i will only get that when i have more time in the car and start to use the motec and get the data from a quick lap and compare it I will giv you a shout when i am going testing
Hope to do a round of Gt cup this year not too worried how quick i go would just like to try some english tracks
I dont think i will be getting near the time from carerra cup due to my limited ability and small buget against big buget and big team profession driver etc etc but i would hope to do 56/7s on the national this year and work from there
The main problem i have is consistency i can do 1 quick lap but not lots of quick laps for some reason but i guess it comes down to experience and i will only get that when i have more time in the car and start to use the motec and get the data from a quick lap and compare it I will giv you a shout when i am going testing
Hope to do a round of Gt cup this year not too worried how quick i go would just like to try some english tracks
Edited by Markgt3 on Saturday 3rd January 21:55
There is a fair old gap between a 996 and 997 cup car, but the 996 is much easier to get used too with the ABS. The 997 cup brakes have virtually no feel and no abs, so getting used to them takes a while for a non pro driver!
If you compare my time for British GT pole in a motorbase 996 cup car in 2005, it was a 1.57 I think and my supercup quali time was a 1.52. Ok the setup is more aggressive and I am now far more experienced in a 911, but it's still going to be around 3-4 seconds a lap..!
If you compare my time for British GT pole in a motorbase 996 cup car in 2005, it was a 1.57 I think and my supercup quali time was a 1.52. Ok the setup is more aggressive and I am now far more experienced in a 911, but it's still going to be around 3-4 seconds a lap..!
HI sean thanks for the reply
I think there may have been a bigger difference in the tyres than the cars as in BGT they ran avons but after doing some testing i am now starting to go quicker in the 997 and your spot on about being harder to drive but now that i am getting used to it i can see its a quicker car it just takes longer to be comfortable in a 997 but when i did i started to push more but when you make a mistake its not as forgiving as a 996
I think there may have been a bigger difference in the tyres than the cars as in BGT they ran avons but after doing some testing i am now starting to go quicker in the 997 and your spot on about being harder to drive but now that i am getting used to it i can see its a quicker car it just takes longer to be comfortable in a 997 but when i did i started to push more but when you make a mistake its not as forgiving as a 996
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