Who is the aggressor in Gaza?

[Mannginger]

I'd like to keep this to a poll only without the debate that's going on in the other thread

Essentially I'm trying to see whom the PH massive believe is the main aggressor and cause of the current fighting. I know it's not that simple but the aim is to go for the party you think is most responsible.

Edit: Too many "Essentials"

Edited by Mannginger on Sunday 4th January 11:01

[V8mate]

Sheryl. I blame her.

[Asterix]

What's going on now is a skirmish of a very long battle - it's not even part of the larger war.

[liner33]

The is about seizing territory and everything else is an excuse , the targetting of mosques and civilian structures is plain wrong and can never be justified.

I've been boycotting Israeli produce for a few years the problem is any anti-Israeli comments usually get you called an anti-semite

[Apache]

A.N. other ie the Arab states funding and supporting Hamas

[RemaL]

I blame Gordon brown

[Pork]

It all started when Waddle missed that penalty.

[Danger_Mouse]

Apache said:

A.N. other ie the Arab states funding and supporting Hamas

+1

[Simpo Two]

Arabs and Jews have been scrapping for millennia, and they always will, because they are fuelled by religion and revenge.

[Chris71]

Admittedly not an expert on the Middle East, but it always seem to play out something like this:

Palestinian kids throw stones at an Israeli patrol.

Israel then blows up two mosques and a hospital in retaliation.

If they weren't such a well armed nation, so beloved of the A-mericans, they'd never get away with it.

[Apache]

Chris71 said:

Admittedly not an expert on the Middle East, but it always seem to play out something like this:

Palestinian kids throw stones at an Israeli patrol.

Israel then blows up two mosques and a hospital in retaliation.

If they weren't such a well armed nation, so beloved of the A-mericans, they'd never get away with it.

80 rockets during the Christmas period alone is more than kids throwing stones at a patrol, have a read here

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Edited by Apache on Sunday 4th January 11:37

[shindha]

Tracing back a bit, no Israel along come the british take Palestinian land divide it up for the Jews and Arabs. Sit back and watch.

[kambites]

You can't have a war without two sides fighting it. However in this case I have more sympathy for Hamas than Israel, not because Israel's acts are any worse than that of Hamas (although in sheer scale, they are), but because Israel pretends to be a responsible nation standing on the moral high-ground whilst supporting its citizens who are occupying another nation's land and using its army to kill their civilians, whereas Hamas don't really claim to be anything other than freedom fighters.

Edited by kambites on Sunday 4th January 11:44

[navier_stokes]

Apache said:

A.N. other ie the Arab states funding and supporting Hamas

True. It's pretty certain as well, that if Israel did not have American backing, it would have probably already be wiped of the Earth by its surrounding countries a long time ago..

[Myobb]

Prior to the 1920´s Palestine comprised 99% Arabs. The British (thats us under the "Balfour Doctrine" of 1918 agreed under Zionist pressure (thats the Jews) agreed to create a Jewish state (other terrorities considered included Uganda). Subsequently we (thats the British) deceided in the 1930´s that it was a mistake to allow unrestricted Jewish emigration & tried to restrict the number of Jews entering Palestine particulalry as the Arabs resented this influx & regularly rioted against it. In the 1940´s & subsequent to the conclusion of the Second World War there was a huge influx of Jews into Palestine. The British attempted to thwart this influx but came under very heavy pressure from the US to allow this influx. As a result we (the British) basically gave up the struggle & pulled out of Palestine in 1948 wherupon the Jews took over the country by conquest expelling thousands of Palestinians.
Whose to blame. Intially the British, primaraly the Jews & currently the US who are basically the only supporters the Jews have.
It should be said that the US is a strong supported of Israel primarily because of the large number of Jews living in the US & the very strong Jewish Lobby.

[Apache]

kambites said:

You can't have a war without two sides fighting it. However in this case I have more sympathy for Hamas than Israel, not because Israel's acts are any worse than that of Hamas (although in sheer scale, they are), but because Israel pretends to be a responsible nation standing on the moral high-ground whilst supporting its citizens who are occupying another nation's land and using its army to kill their civilians, whereas Hamas don't really claim to be anything other than freedom fighters.

Edited by kambites on Sunday 4th January 11:44

I see it more like this

[968]

Apache said:

kambites said:

You can't have a war without two sides fighting it. However in this case I have more sympathy for Hamas than Israel, not because Israel's acts are any worse than that of Hamas (although in sheer scale, they are), but because Israel pretends to be a responsible nation standing on the moral high-ground whilst supporting its citizens who are occupying another nation's land and using its army to kill their civilians, whereas Hamas don't really claim to be anything other than freedom fighters.

Edited by kambites on Sunday 4th January 11:44

I see it more like this

It's a nice cartoon, flawed in a few ways, that is that the 'soldier' of Palestine should realistically be pictured in a massive outdoor prison which has been getting progressively smaller for 60 years, as more land for farming and living has been taken away, as the settlement program has accelerated over the years. The Israeli soldier should also be pictured putting the babies crib closer and closer to the Palestinian soldier and bringing more babies to surround them. Of course, it's difficult to picture the other daily miseries associated with being a resident of Gaza. I wonder if the cartoon author could be clever enough to sum those up?

[Apache]

968, what are your thoughts on bobbylondonuks post

"Israel has already agreed to give up the occupied land to enable this solution...Palestinians will get more land and Israel will be faced with internal resistance from orthodox jewish settlers...but they have promised and they have delivered in some places"

on this thread?

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

[Balmoral Green]

Apache said:

[968]

Apache said:

968, what are your thoughts on bobbylondonuks post

"Israel has already agreed to give up the occupied land to enable this solution...Palestinians will get more land and Israel will be faced with internal resistance from orthodox jewish settlers...but they have promised and they have delivered in some places"

on this thread?

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

It's nonsense, frankly. Israel has been so committed to this policy that it has accelerated the settlement program in many areas, whilst withdrawing settlers from Gaza. When Netanyahu wins the upcoming election, you'll see the settlement program increase further. The problem is not one sided. Since Hamas was voted in, it signaled that the Palestinians who voted for them felt that a viable state with sovereign rights was just not going to happen, rather there would be a continuation of an existence of essentially a massive open air prison, blockaded from the rest of the world, with resources and land further appropriated to Israel, without any ability for recourse.

I believe that elements of Israeli govt and certainly many Israeli people see a 2 state solution as the way forward, however it's the viability of that state that's been in question, and the Palestinians people also want self-determination of a viable state, but one has to question why they democratically elected Hamas? My feeling is that it's the result of 60 years of their problem worsening.


Oh and do read Benny Morris accounts about the formation of Israel and the treatment of the Palestinians in 1948.

Edited by 968 on Sunday 4th January 12:33