Emerald K3 and Anti-Lag
Discussion
Hi all,
I have a question about the Emerald K3 ECU - I have spoken to Dave Walker at Emerald briefly, but I am still trying to get my head around what I am trying to do, so I thought I would ask on here.
I have a Celica GT-Four, which I have been using to compete in Hillclimb and Sprint events. For next season, I have been able to pick up a load of Toyota Team GB parts including turbos, engine block etc.
To get the best out of this setup I need an aftermarket ECU and the Emerald looks to be an attractive package on price, features etc.
I understand that the K3 allows you to have three maps. Two of these I would have as simple low boost / high boost maps. However I am interested in using the thrid map for a high boost with mild anti-lag map (for competition use in short bursts only) - a feature which many ECU's advertise, but not the Emerald. I believe there are two ways of achieving anti-lag (and this is where I am struggling a little bit) - I found a reasonably good explination of the two types on the Link ECU website:
Anti-lag is a feature which is designed to eliminate the lag period (or spool up time) which is experienced with a typical turbocharger. Anti-lag generates a small amount of boost under conditions where the engine would normally be operating in vacuum (such as in overrun which occurs when lifting off the throttle). By doing this, the turbocharger will already be spooled when the throttle is re-applied and lag will have been reduced.
Two modes of anti-lag are available in Link ECUs. The first is designed for use in most cases where fitting of additional devices to allow extra air to enter the engine (solenoids/valves) and control switches is not restricted by motorsport rules, and is referred to as 'Group A mode'.
Where this mode is being used, an 'idle up device' (such as an idle solenoid that bypasses air around the the throttle plate or a mechanical device such as a cable or motor that can push the throttle open) needs to be fitted. Note that the standard idle speed control will probably not be able to bypass enough air.
It then works by retarding the ignition significantly, while at the same time making the air / fuel mixture much richer and bypassing air into the engine (via a throttle plate or a solenoid).
This means that the exhaust valves are just beginning to open when ignition (aided by the high temperature of the exhaust tubes) occurs, and the resulting exhaust gasses keep the turbo turning, while at the same time providing very little torque to the crankshaft.
The second is known as 'Group N mode', and is used where rules prevent the fitting of devices such as solenoids/valves and control switches. It essentially uses a throttle stop to keep supplying additional fuel even when the driver has taken their foot off the throttle, and controls the RPM / idle speed by cutting cylinder ignition in a random but cyclic manner.
Note - care is needed in the use of anti-lag, as it results in very high exhaust gas temperatures. These may be reduced by adding extra fuel via the anti-lag fuel table but it should still be noted that anti-lag will significantly reduce the life of the turbocharger and manifolds.
My question is whether either / both of these techiques can be achieved on the Emerald ECU, and if so, how?
I think I am right in saying that it would be a good idea to 'switch off' the anti-lag after a set period of time and / or if exhaust gas temperatures reach a set amount.
If the Emerald can't do this, is there another ECU for around the same money to fit /map (£1200 all in?) that can? The link would seem to be a good option, but is limited to 1.5 bar of boost - the rally teams ran at 2 bar of boost, so I might want to run between 1.5 / 2 bar.
Thanks,
Adam
I have a question about the Emerald K3 ECU - I have spoken to Dave Walker at Emerald briefly, but I am still trying to get my head around what I am trying to do, so I thought I would ask on here.
I have a Celica GT-Four, which I have been using to compete in Hillclimb and Sprint events. For next season, I have been able to pick up a load of Toyota Team GB parts including turbos, engine block etc.
To get the best out of this setup I need an aftermarket ECU and the Emerald looks to be an attractive package on price, features etc.
I understand that the K3 allows you to have three maps. Two of these I would have as simple low boost / high boost maps. However I am interested in using the thrid map for a high boost with mild anti-lag map (for competition use in short bursts only) - a feature which many ECU's advertise, but not the Emerald. I believe there are two ways of achieving anti-lag (and this is where I am struggling a little bit) - I found a reasonably good explination of the two types on the Link ECU website:
Anti-lag is a feature which is designed to eliminate the lag period (or spool up time) which is experienced with a typical turbocharger. Anti-lag generates a small amount of boost under conditions where the engine would normally be operating in vacuum (such as in overrun which occurs when lifting off the throttle). By doing this, the turbocharger will already be spooled when the throttle is re-applied and lag will have been reduced.
Two modes of anti-lag are available in Link ECUs. The first is designed for use in most cases where fitting of additional devices to allow extra air to enter the engine (solenoids/valves) and control switches is not restricted by motorsport rules, and is referred to as 'Group A mode'.
Where this mode is being used, an 'idle up device' (such as an idle solenoid that bypasses air around the the throttle plate or a mechanical device such as a cable or motor that can push the throttle open) needs to be fitted. Note that the standard idle speed control will probably not be able to bypass enough air.
It then works by retarding the ignition significantly, while at the same time making the air / fuel mixture much richer and bypassing air into the engine (via a throttle plate or a solenoid).
This means that the exhaust valves are just beginning to open when ignition (aided by the high temperature of the exhaust tubes) occurs, and the resulting exhaust gasses keep the turbo turning, while at the same time providing very little torque to the crankshaft.
The second is known as 'Group N mode', and is used where rules prevent the fitting of devices such as solenoids/valves and control switches. It essentially uses a throttle stop to keep supplying additional fuel even when the driver has taken their foot off the throttle, and controls the RPM / idle speed by cutting cylinder ignition in a random but cyclic manner.
Note - care is needed in the use of anti-lag, as it results in very high exhaust gas temperatures. These may be reduced by adding extra fuel via the anti-lag fuel table but it should still be noted that anti-lag will significantly reduce the life of the turbocharger and manifolds.
My question is whether either / both of these techiques can be achieved on the Emerald ECU, and if so, how?
I think I am right in saying that it would be a good idea to 'switch off' the anti-lag after a set period of time and / or if exhaust gas temperatures reach a set amount.
If the Emerald can't do this, is there another ECU for around the same money to fit /map (£1200 all in?) that can? The link would seem to be a good option, but is limited to 1.5 bar of boost - the rally teams ran at 2 bar of boost, so I might want to run between 1.5 / 2 bar.
Thanks,
Adam
Hi
You could do a bit of a bodge ant-lag using the emerald, basically on your anti-lag map on the top line / throttle shut position you could retard the spark and add a load of fuel, and use a separate throttle switch to activate an extra air valve behind the butterfly or an actuator to open the throttle a bit.
Or if your're feeling flash you can activate a valve which opens a link between the pressurised plenum and the exhaust manifold so you get a blast of pressurised air into the exhaust.
This needs a few mods to your exhaust tho'
Matt
You could do a bit of a bodge ant-lag using the emerald, basically on your anti-lag map on the top line / throttle shut position you could retard the spark and add a load of fuel, and use a separate throttle switch to activate an extra air valve behind the butterfly or an actuator to open the throttle a bit.
Or if your're feeling flash you can activate a valve which opens a link between the pressurised plenum and the exhaust manifold so you get a blast of pressurised air into the exhaust.
This needs a few mods to your exhaust tho'
Matt
i have a K3 and have been badgering Dave for the anti-lag/traction control and launch control updates for 2 years, but to no avail. essentially as Dave will admit, its his business partner Karl (hence K moniker) that designs the ecus, Dave is the engine/mapping brains.
the K3 has the full throttle gear shift setup which keeps the engines on boost way better than the normal lift and shift, its really worth setting up. its a bit like ALS on the up change, but obviosuly nothing on the trailing throttle like real ALS.
given that itll be half past xmas when they eventually release the next upgrade (albeit probably free to K3 owners), i have to agree with 350Matt that there are ways to do it, albeit not as agrresive as WRC ALS. id thought of using one of the maps to use in anti-lag mode ie throttle shut, retaded ign and more fuel pumped in. you will also need air flow with the throttle shut and id thought of using the VTEC switching via an air bypass valve to do that. not 100% sure if its possible, but the VTEC switching within the emerald on the K3 can be set at any rpm iirc, but you need another switch so that its inhibited when the throttles open or cars idling and only switches maps when the throttles closed. bit more involved than that, but you get the idea.
teh air bypass is done on the cossies with a ported (enlarged) air bypass valvem, sure you could rig up a similar arrangement on the toyota throttle body.
main concerns are that all ALS causes reduced turbo life, in fact tends to be mega reduced!! exh gas temps go through the roof too, hence most cars are mapped to dump more fuel in as a coolant as well. a guy i knew through work bought an ex Dave llewellyn TTE Celica and the ALS literally ate turbos, even at clubman level they changed them during an event!
Maram shafts MAR247 (think they are made from inconel) are the answer but are £700 plus just for the shaft and compressor wheel so not cheap a mod.
Omex list ALS on their ecus but i found emeralds friendly approach and sensible charging for mapping etc preferable.
a second hand MOTEC would be nice, but they arent cheap and each 'feature' in the software costs to be unlocked. not a problem if the 2nd hand unit has the ALS unlocked but worth asking the costs before you buy i guess.
its worth noting that given the sprints/hills discipline, it may be better/cheaper to spec the turbo correctly in the first place rather than use ALS to keep 'too big' a turbo spooling. maybe ask Turbo technics about their VNT range. one of my fellow nissan engined tinkerers has one on a CA18DET (ex 200sx) and sees a chunk of boost from 1500-1800 rpm. feels odd in the car, no turbo 'kick in the back' when accelerating, more a constant push like a big 6cyl. think Geoff Kershaw was running them on his twin turbo V6 sierra sprinter too. odd to see boost just above idle lol
the K3 has the full throttle gear shift setup which keeps the engines on boost way better than the normal lift and shift, its really worth setting up. its a bit like ALS on the up change, but obviosuly nothing on the trailing throttle like real ALS.
given that itll be half past xmas when they eventually release the next upgrade (albeit probably free to K3 owners), i have to agree with 350Matt that there are ways to do it, albeit not as agrresive as WRC ALS. id thought of using one of the maps to use in anti-lag mode ie throttle shut, retaded ign and more fuel pumped in. you will also need air flow with the throttle shut and id thought of using the VTEC switching via an air bypass valve to do that. not 100% sure if its possible, but the VTEC switching within the emerald on the K3 can be set at any rpm iirc, but you need another switch so that its inhibited when the throttles open or cars idling and only switches maps when the throttles closed. bit more involved than that, but you get the idea.
teh air bypass is done on the cossies with a ported (enlarged) air bypass valvem, sure you could rig up a similar arrangement on the toyota throttle body.
main concerns are that all ALS causes reduced turbo life, in fact tends to be mega reduced!! exh gas temps go through the roof too, hence most cars are mapped to dump more fuel in as a coolant as well. a guy i knew through work bought an ex Dave llewellyn TTE Celica and the ALS literally ate turbos, even at clubman level they changed them during an event!
Maram shafts MAR247 (think they are made from inconel) are the answer but are £700 plus just for the shaft and compressor wheel so not cheap a mod.
Omex list ALS on their ecus but i found emeralds friendly approach and sensible charging for mapping etc preferable.
a second hand MOTEC would be nice, but they arent cheap and each 'feature' in the software costs to be unlocked. not a problem if the 2nd hand unit has the ALS unlocked but worth asking the costs before you buy i guess.
its worth noting that given the sprints/hills discipline, it may be better/cheaper to spec the turbo correctly in the first place rather than use ALS to keep 'too big' a turbo spooling. maybe ask Turbo technics about their VNT range. one of my fellow nissan engined tinkerers has one on a CA18DET (ex 200sx) and sees a chunk of boost from 1500-1800 rpm. feels odd in the car, no turbo 'kick in the back' when accelerating, more a constant push like a big 6cyl. think Geoff Kershaw was running them on his twin turbo V6 sierra sprinter too. odd to see boost just above idle lol
Edited by CNHSS1 on Wednesday 7th January 17:11
Edited by CNHSS1 on Wednesday 7th January 17:12
Emerald would not be my choice for a celica. I would suggest a simple Apexi PowerFC would do everything you need, however they don't have ALS. A link G3 would probably be the best choice for the money.
Speak to Ryan here:
http://www.2bartuning.com/
Speak to Ryan here:
http://www.2bartuning.com/
Hi all,
Thanks for the replies so far - very helpful. Some good ideas on how to get the Emerald to do Anti-lag.
I hae been thinking about the lag issue - last year I was running a Turbo Force stage 2 Hybrid which is a well regarded turbo, but I did have problems with dropping off boost on a few occassions. Thinking about it, the following would have played a part in this:
- Gearing, the standard gen 1 GT4 gearing is quite high and not that well spaced between 2nd and 3rd. I have sourced a Celica gearbox that is better geared for sprinting for this year.
- The Standard ECU - 18 years old and not particularly clever. I had it fueling roughly right by tweaking the airflow meter on a rolling road, but I suspect there were occasions in Sprints where it was getting confused and not fueling correctly, probably over fueling quite heavily. I was running a setup that was producing 85bhp more than stock, so I shouldn't be that surprised. This would not have helped throttle response / lag.
- The engine itself - the head as standard doesn't breath that well, but this will be sorted by the rebuild.
So with a good aftermarket ECU and a good mapper, lag should be minimised. I would still like a mild anti-lag though as I think it just add that little bit extra to the car, plus it would be fun
Most sprint courses take less than 2 minutes to complete and any anti-lag would only be running for a fraction of this time so I don't think the heat issues will arise. I do want an ECU that monitors EGR temperatures though, as I think this is a good thing to keep an eye on to keep the engine / turbo safe. I think some ECUs (DTA / OMEX?) that advertise anti-lag can turn off the anti-lag if the EGR temps reach a certain level.
I must admit one of the main appeals of the Emerald is Dave Walker -I read his column in PPC most months and know that he is someone that knows what he is doing. My local tuner (BTEC Racing) also has a good reputation though and they specialise in Emerald / OMEX. They told me yesterday that the Anti-lag on the OMEX is switchable and they are going to find out if there is a way of having multiple maps for me - one low boost for driving to events and a high boost for competitive runs.
I have been reading up on the flat shift feature - quite a few ECU's offer this and it seems like a feature worth having, if a little counter intuitive at first - it will be quite hard not to lift!
Vixpy1 - any particular reason why you wouldn't go for the Emerald? The Power FC is designed for later GT-Fours and won't plug straight into my car, plus they are now discontined. The Link is an interesting ECU - they are now on the G4 model which apparently sorts a lot of the issues with the G3. The only issue is that the model that is priced similarly to the Emerald is limited to 1.5 bar of boost. You have to pay about £900 for the next model up.
Thanks all,
Adam
Thanks for the replies so far - very helpful. Some good ideas on how to get the Emerald to do Anti-lag.
I hae been thinking about the lag issue - last year I was running a Turbo Force stage 2 Hybrid which is a well regarded turbo, but I did have problems with dropping off boost on a few occassions. Thinking about it, the following would have played a part in this:
- Gearing, the standard gen 1 GT4 gearing is quite high and not that well spaced between 2nd and 3rd. I have sourced a Celica gearbox that is better geared for sprinting for this year.
- The Standard ECU - 18 years old and not particularly clever. I had it fueling roughly right by tweaking the airflow meter on a rolling road, but I suspect there were occasions in Sprints where it was getting confused and not fueling correctly, probably over fueling quite heavily. I was running a setup that was producing 85bhp more than stock, so I shouldn't be that surprised. This would not have helped throttle response / lag.
- The engine itself - the head as standard doesn't breath that well, but this will be sorted by the rebuild.
So with a good aftermarket ECU and a good mapper, lag should be minimised. I would still like a mild anti-lag though as I think it just add that little bit extra to the car, plus it would be fun
Most sprint courses take less than 2 minutes to complete and any anti-lag would only be running for a fraction of this time so I don't think the heat issues will arise. I do want an ECU that monitors EGR temperatures though, as I think this is a good thing to keep an eye on to keep the engine / turbo safe. I think some ECUs (DTA / OMEX?) that advertise anti-lag can turn off the anti-lag if the EGR temps reach a certain level.
I must admit one of the main appeals of the Emerald is Dave Walker -I read his column in PPC most months and know that he is someone that knows what he is doing. My local tuner (BTEC Racing) also has a good reputation though and they specialise in Emerald / OMEX. They told me yesterday that the Anti-lag on the OMEX is switchable and they are going to find out if there is a way of having multiple maps for me - one low boost for driving to events and a high boost for competitive runs.
I have been reading up on the flat shift feature - quite a few ECU's offer this and it seems like a feature worth having, if a little counter intuitive at first - it will be quite hard not to lift!
Vixpy1 - any particular reason why you wouldn't go for the Emerald? The Power FC is designed for later GT-Fours and won't plug straight into my car, plus they are now discontined. The Link is an interesting ECU - they are now on the G4 model which apparently sorts a lot of the issues with the G3. The only issue is that the model that is priced similarly to the Emerald is limited to 1.5 bar of boost. You have to pay about £900 for the next model up.
Thanks all,
Adam
EGTs do ramp up incredibly quickly 
but think the K3 can be set with a 'failsafe' or maybe to swithc maps to the safer one if they get dangerous.
i believe theres more to the choice of ecu (they are all bloody good really) than just whats on paper. when i looked into it before coughing up my hard earned, DTA were helpful if i was a race team running an F3 car, but a lowly sprinter was looked upon as a bit of a peasant with Omex not being much less awkward. Emerald were more friendly and didnt talk down to me like a child so got my money! Dave W is a legend, he has saved me more money than ive ever spent with him on mapping ecus etc because he cant help himself, hes a big kid at heart and enjoys everyones projects too. last time i was there for mapping, we hit the end power figure relatively early but he wasnt happy until he mapped out the boost spikes and made the car more drivable, which is ultimatley what makes a car faster on a lap, not huge pub bhp figures.
if your local tuner is a DTA or Omex expert go with what they know. i prefer to travel to use Dave in deepest Norfolk (youll need your passport and possibly an interpreter ;-) and drive the 280miles each way. hes a no bulls
t sort of guy, doesnt do bling or pub figs, but tolerates a self confessed ecu numpty like me, he even tries to teach me (never gonna ahppen lol).
your money, your call, but friendly helpful advice that makes you quicker on track is worth a lot in my opinion.
Craig
but think the K3 can be set with a 'failsafe' or maybe to swithc maps to the safer one if they get dangerous.i believe theres more to the choice of ecu (they are all bloody good really) than just whats on paper. when i looked into it before coughing up my hard earned, DTA were helpful if i was a race team running an F3 car, but a lowly sprinter was looked upon as a bit of a peasant with Omex not being much less awkward. Emerald were more friendly and didnt talk down to me like a child so got my money! Dave W is a legend, he has saved me more money than ive ever spent with him on mapping ecus etc because he cant help himself, hes a big kid at heart and enjoys everyones projects too. last time i was there for mapping, we hit the end power figure relatively early but he wasnt happy until he mapped out the boost spikes and made the car more drivable, which is ultimatley what makes a car faster on a lap, not huge pub bhp figures.
if your local tuner is a DTA or Omex expert go with what they know. i prefer to travel to use Dave in deepest Norfolk (youll need your passport and possibly an interpreter ;-) and drive the 280miles each way. hes a no bulls
t sort of guy, doesnt do bling or pub figs, but tolerates a self confessed ecu numpty like me, he even tries to teach me (never gonna ahppen lol).your money, your call, but friendly helpful advice that makes you quicker on track is worth a lot in my opinion.
Craig
Edited by CNHSS1 on Thursday 8th January 13:01
ad_p said:
My local tuner (just outside Oxford) specialises in Omex and Emerald
If I go for Emerald, I will get them to do the install and basic setup to make sure everything is ok, then make the trip to Norfolk for the fine tuning.
Emerald, in real terms, is a fairly basic ECU, its suburb for the money, and works well on things like the K series, but for jap cars i've always found alternative systems work well. Seriously, have a chat with Ryan at 2Bartuning, he knows Toyota engines better than anybody, and is based in Oxford.If I go for Emerald, I will get them to do the install and basic setup to make sure everything is ok, then make the trip to Norfolk for the fine tuning.
Edited by ad_p on Thursday 8th January 13:23
GreenV8S said:
Vixpy1 said:
Emerald would not be my choice for a celica.
I remember seeing some very interesting kit on the site linked from your profile. I'm not in the market right now, but just out of interest where would we find prices for that sort of system?Drop me a mail and i'll drop you the retail prices
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