Winter Wear Part 2 - Rubber
Discussion
No, not a fetishist's thread.
After my constant banging on about the benefits of winter tyres in the UK, I've decided to put my money where my mouth is and stop talking s
te. Two reasons:
1. The road is so cold, and A048Rs are so inappropriate for the conditions, that I've been accidentally practising drifting on the road for the past few weeks. There's only so long you can drive over the limits before a stack;
2. Stew's stack.
Now I spent a couple of years with my supercharged 993 porker using Pirelli Snowsport tyres in winter and Dunlop SSR trackday stickies in summer. The performance in winter was astounding, I could actually *use* the car and not just tiptoe around. I was swapping tyres on the same rims for the first year, and when I came to sell the car the winters were still in perfect condition (they started off with loads of tread anyway, brilliant for standing water, no aquaplaning).
With the Lotus, I've checked the manual and Lotus recommend Pirelli Snowsport. Unfortunately Pirelli are now phasing out Snowsport and making Sottozero tyres, but they still have the 'W210' designator that is in the Lotus manual. Luckily I've just checked on mytyres.co.uk (big German company by the looks of things) and they've got the old W210 Snowsport in the odd 195/50R16 front, but the new W210 Sottozero in the more popular 225/45R17 rear.
Anyway regardless of the fact that Pirelli don't make Sottozero in the front size, and virtually no manufacturer makes the same type of winter tyre in both front and rear sizes for the Lotus
I've ordered the Pirellis. Firstly because I have used Snowsports before on a high-torque tricky-handling sports car and found them astonishing, and secondly because the Sottozero is an evolution of the Snowsport (and they have the same model number) so hopefully they won't be too mismatched front to back.
I'll initially be putting the winters on the standard rims, and depending on how the economy works out (i.e. whether I get a new contract soon or not) then I'll either swap the tyres back over come spring / summer (usually April when the roads get too warm for winter tyres) or I'll buy a new set of high-performance ultra-lightweight wheels for the A048Rs to improve track performance as well.
Given my experience with the Porker, I'm expecting a massive change in character with the winter tyres on - it won't be as sharp as with the cut slicks, nothing ever is - but I'll be able to drive it in the winter and in standing water / heavy rain *exactly* how I drive it in summer. With the Porker, in heavy rain with < 7˚C road temps, on the Snowsports you could use full throttle, you could corner hard, it was great. With normal summer tyres, I was tiptoeing everywhere.
It's a peculiarly UK thing to think that summer tyres are appropriate in winter. Winter tyres are NOT just 'snow' tyres - that seems to be the false thinking. We don't get much snow, so snow tyres aren't needed - this is BS. Winter tyres work better in low temps, and in wetter conditions. It seems that many Lotus drivers, at the first bit of harsh weather (snow / sleet / ice), either hide their cars away in the garage, or venture out really carefully and then brag about how brave they are on SELOC With winter tyres, driving the Lotus in poor weather will be no big deal.
I've ordered the tyres, will get them fitted when they arrive, and let you know how I get on. I know that I'll be able to enjoy the car more, and I'll have to make sure I point out the tyres to fellow trackdayers if I attend a January or February trackday with poor weather... wouldn't want anyone on A048Rs trying to keep up with me and stacking as a result...
After my constant banging on about the benefits of winter tyres in the UK, I've decided to put my money where my mouth is and stop talking s
te. Two reasons:1. The road is so cold, and A048Rs are so inappropriate for the conditions, that I've been accidentally practising drifting on the road for the past few weeks. There's only so long you can drive over the limits before a stack;
2. Stew's stack.
Now I spent a couple of years with my supercharged 993 porker using Pirelli Snowsport tyres in winter and Dunlop SSR trackday stickies in summer. The performance in winter was astounding, I could actually *use* the car and not just tiptoe around. I was swapping tyres on the same rims for the first year, and when I came to sell the car the winters were still in perfect condition (they started off with loads of tread anyway, brilliant for standing water, no aquaplaning).
With the Lotus, I've checked the manual and Lotus recommend Pirelli Snowsport. Unfortunately Pirelli are now phasing out Snowsport and making Sottozero tyres, but they still have the 'W210' designator that is in the Lotus manual. Luckily I've just checked on mytyres.co.uk (big German company by the looks of things) and they've got the old W210 Snowsport in the odd 195/50R16 front, but the new W210 Sottozero in the more popular 225/45R17 rear.
Anyway regardless of the fact that Pirelli don't make Sottozero in the front size, and virtually no manufacturer makes the same type of winter tyre in both front and rear sizes for the Lotus
I've ordered the Pirellis. Firstly because I have used Snowsports before on a high-torque tricky-handling sports car and found them astonishing, and secondly because the Sottozero is an evolution of the Snowsport (and they have the same model number) so hopefully they won't be too mismatched front to back.I'll initially be putting the winters on the standard rims, and depending on how the economy works out (i.e. whether I get a new contract soon or not) then I'll either swap the tyres back over come spring / summer (usually April when the roads get too warm for winter tyres) or I'll buy a new set of high-performance ultra-lightweight wheels for the A048Rs to improve track performance as well.
Given my experience with the Porker, I'm expecting a massive change in character with the winter tyres on - it won't be as sharp as with the cut slicks, nothing ever is - but I'll be able to drive it in the winter and in standing water / heavy rain *exactly* how I drive it in summer. With the Porker, in heavy rain with < 7˚C road temps, on the Snowsports you could use full throttle, you could corner hard, it was great. With normal summer tyres, I was tiptoeing everywhere.
It's a peculiarly UK thing to think that summer tyres are appropriate in winter. Winter tyres are NOT just 'snow' tyres - that seems to be the false thinking. We don't get much snow, so snow tyres aren't needed - this is BS. Winter tyres work better in low temps, and in wetter conditions. It seems that many Lotus drivers, at the first bit of harsh weather (snow / sleet / ice), either hide their cars away in the garage, or venture out really carefully and then brag about how brave they are on SELOC
With winter tyres, driving the Lotus in poor weather will be no big deal.I've ordered the tyres, will get them fitted when they arrive, and let you know how I get on. I know that I'll be able to enjoy the car more, and I'll have to make sure I point out the tyres to fellow trackdayers if I attend a January or February trackday with poor weather... wouldn't want anyone on A048Rs trying to keep up with me and stacking as a result...
No worries re: SELOC, been a lurker there a *long* time and do stick my oar in every so often... just steer clear of the cliquey stuff. Besides, I've been a PHer much longer than SELOCer, so I tend to start new threads here, and only add weird contributions to existing threads on SELOC.
Hell, I've even had some goon demand I change my classic Catfish avatar to a goat? WTF?
Hell, I've even had some goon demand I change my classic Catfish avatar to a goat? WTF?
I'll be interested to hear how you get on with these. I'm thinking of switching to either OA48s or Toyo 888s this spring (hoping to spend a fair bit of time on track this year) but would like to have a dedicated winter tyre too.
How do these sort of tyres fair in temps of about 10 degrees C (not unusual mid winter temps in Devon/Cornwall - except this year)?
How do these sort of tyres fair in temps of about 10 degrees C (not unusual mid winter temps in Devon/Cornwall - except this year)?
TIPPER said:
I'll be interested to hear how you get on with these. I'm thinking of switching to either OA48s or Toyo 888s this spring (hoping to spend a fair bit of time on track this year) but would like to have a dedicated winter tyre too.
How do these sort of tyres fair in temps of about 10 degrees C (not unusual mid winter temps in Devon/Cornwall - except this year)?
With the Porker I was using them from November to April, and March and April often have temps higher than 10˚C. It's the road temperature rather than the air temperature that matters, but even with mild / warm days, my Snowsports never got chewed up. And the Porker was a LOT heavier than the Exige and had 320 lb ft of torque.How do these sort of tyres fair in temps of about 10 degrees C (not unusual mid winter temps in Devon/Cornwall - except this year)?
Just as the 'extreme' track tyres like A048Rs and 888s can also perform well in most wet conditions (apart from very cold and lots of standing water), real winter tyres can also perform above their optimum temperature. I don't expect much snow and ice, the real benefit of the winter tyres in UK winter conditions is the water clearing ability and the compound that grips properly below 7˚C.
A summer trackday would trash them, but road driving even in our relatively mild winters won't harm them. The compound in the V speed rating tyres has to be able to handle driving at 149 mph with an average 1500 kg car - even with road temps of 2-5˚C, the speed itself will warm the tyres up beyond 10˚C anyway.
I simply can't see any downsides to using 'real' winter tyres in the UK in winter - even if you never see snow (I was brought up in Somerset so know the typical SW weather) you gain from the massive reduction in aquaplaning and the greater mechanical grip in cold conditions.
One thing I never did do with the Porker on its Snowsports was to do a trackday. I feel that a dry, warm trackday on the winter tyres will overheat them fairly quickly, but I'm looking forward to trying them out on a late Jan or February day. If it's cold, then the tyres should be fine (though other Lotuses with summer track rubber will have more grip when they've warmed up fully). If it rains, however, I'd expect the winter tyres to perform significantly better - the water will keep them cool and the compound will perform at its optimum. Definitely looking forward to testing this hypothesis out!
I'm looking forward to trying them out on the Exige, will update the thread when I receive them!
Seems like a very sensible option cyberface. I'd be keen to here how it goes. I am one of the people that ends up pootling around in the winter because of the lack of grip on 048's.
I imagine the winter tyres will be designed for a much heavier car, but even so, they should far outperform a summer tyre this time of year. When my AD07 spare set are used up, I am going to try this option. Could be interesting on track in the winter though.
I imagine the winter tyres will be designed for a much heavier car, but even so, they should far outperform a summer tyre this time of year. When my AD07 spare set are used up, I am going to try this option. Could be interesting on track in the winter though.
shangani said:
Could be interesting on track in the winter though.
I hear you... a dry trackday in winter with low track temps would be fine for short sessions IMO - but long sustained lappery in the dry may prove too much for the tyres.However, a winter trackday when it's raining... I reckon I could be one of the fastest out there if everyone else is using summer rubber
Since I'll still keep the winters on when I do winter trackdays, I'll have to start off doing short sessions and monitoring the state of the tyres after a few laps. As you say, they're most likely to be designed for heavier cars, so the additional load / heat generated by circuit driving *may* just be acceptable... but they're not super-cheap tyres so don't want to destroy them on the first trackday.
What I *do* know is that the car will feel 'squidgier' due to the height of the tread blocks allowing movement before slippage. But it also makes the car marvellously progressive and predictable when driving past the limits.
Haven't had a tracking email from the despatching warehouse so no idea when they are going to arrive though. If there are supply problems with the tyres then I'll have to go back to square one and try to find another manufacturer who make tyres in the correct sizes... someone on another thread mentioned Kumho that are *much* cheaper (and virtually disposable if they aren't that good) but haven't had a reply yet as to which model they are...
The Kuhmos may have been the KU3somethings (!!!). Lots of peeps reckon them but I'm not that keen, prefering Toyo T1Rs on my S1. Kuhmo also do a K7something (!!!!!again) which looks like a treaded TD tyre. Unfortunately they don't seem to be available in sizes for me. Another possibility could be Hankook RS2 which have been commented on favourably or the long awaited Toyo R1R.
OK they've arrived - heavy beasties but awesome tread depth - these are going to cut through standing water like it isn't there. Getting on for two centimetres...
Will try to get them fitted at the weekend otherwise it'll be next week... just enough time to bed them in before a trackday at Brands
Will try to get them fitted at the weekend otherwise it'll be next week... just enough time to bed them in before a trackday at Brands
After hours of looking around, I've finally just got a full set of Goodyear eagle F1 GSD3s for my S2 exige. I'll let you guys know how that goes too. It has to be better than the A048s in the -5 pi**sing it down conditions that this years winter has thrown at us! They've been great on the 306 rallye (~1150kg vs exige ~900kg) (very good wet/dry characteristics) which I used to have and despite being a very different car are pretty well recommended in other lotus applications- a few have even used them on the exige.
After an icy day at Donington in December slithering around on A048s which refused to warm up and a few sideways moments on the lanes around here I decided to swap to Continentals.
I have Sport Contact 3's on the rear and 2's on the front (it's what the supplier could get easily and at a relatively good price).
The handling is transformed.
Where before the car would feel harsh, would skip sideways on uneven roads it now grips and stops much better and the steering is not deflected so much by bumps and potholes. Plus the ride is as good as it is in summer on A048s (I noticed it getting much harsher as the temps dropped).
Apart from the geometry changes, this is the single biggest improvement I've made to the car - it means it's now an all-year car as opposed to an occasional winter drive car which considering I've just moved to the Dales means I can now enjoy the roads while they remain relatively tourist free.
Only problem is I seem to have now fallen victim to the interior fan resistor corrosion problem, so I can't see half the time....
I have Sport Contact 3's on the rear and 2's on the front (it's what the supplier could get easily and at a relatively good price).
The handling is transformed.
Where before the car would feel harsh, would skip sideways on uneven roads it now grips and stops much better and the steering is not deflected so much by bumps and potholes. Plus the ride is as good as it is in summer on A048s (I noticed it getting much harsher as the temps dropped).
Apart from the geometry changes, this is the single biggest improvement I've made to the car - it means it's now an all-year car as opposed to an occasional winter drive car which considering I've just moved to the Dales means I can now enjoy the roads while they remain relatively tourist free.
Only problem is I seem to have now fallen victim to the interior fan resistor corrosion problem, so I can't see half the time....
OK, I've been both incredibly lazy and not very well. However I have just done the dosey-do with the tyres (four trips to the tyre place with a spare tyre in the passenger seat...) and got my local friendly *competent* tyre blokes to swap the A048Rs for the Pirelli Snowsports. I thoroughly recommend these guys - the SETYRES branch in Sevenoaks - it's refreshing to see them eschew the air gun for a manual torque wrench, and actually take care of the wheels and wheel bolts. Didn't charge a lot for swapping the tyres either.
Will do some proper miles at the weekend and next week, and then have a 400 mile round trip for my girlfriend's mother's 60th birthday party in Somerset next weekend. Next week is forecast subzero temperatures with the chance of snow.
First impressions? Well it was 5˚C when I had the tyres fitted. The road was colder than that - it was frosty this morning. Driving to the tyre shop on A048Rs was the same old 'too cold for the compound' feeling with absolutely *no* confidence from the tyres and the typical little slides on 90˚ bends. Full throttle in second gear works until 4k rpm when the tyres go all squirmy and the car starts to snake. With the Pirellis on, the car is immediately quieter, less harsh through the suspension and, critically, the car feels like it's got 100% grip from cold. Second gear full throttle is possible to the rev limiter without the tyres 'feeling' at all squirmy or uncomfortable. Chucking the car into a 90 degree left with terror-tactics lift-then-boot allows the car to drift gently, then start to power oversteer. All completely telegraphed and not snappy at all. The sidewalls are softer than the A048Rs (most tyres are, short of run-flats) but they're not excessively floppy, and there's not a hell of a lot of sidewall anyway, so I haven't felt too much 'lurching' so far. I'll test this properly on a trackday, I suspect it won't be a problem on the road but will show up in quick direction changes (such as Surtees into McLaren / Clearways at Brands). That said, if it's raining I reckon they'll be invaluable on a trackday
In short - exactly how they performed on the old blown 993 and exactly what I was expecting. What wasn't quite so expected was the decrease in noise and increase in comfort - the A048Rs do ride quite harshly but I was expecting *more* noise, not less from the heavily siped deep treadblocks... I guess there's more rubber on the road with A048Rs, but still the expected 'thrum' from the flexible tread on the winter tyres isn't there.
Bit of a result, though I haven't tried high speed stuff nor really heavy loads yet (i.e. a trackday). No deep water to try them in yet, though I'm sure that'll come with time. One very dodgy aspect to the A048Rs is that when they're cold, the car is happy to trigger the ABS even when comparatively mild braking. With the winters, no chance of lockup as the tyres are performing at their optimum when cold. Excellent confidence-booster
Will get photos and do more extensive testing over the weekend - if I don't get enough time on the road then I'll wait until after the Somerset trip when I'll have had a good 500 miles under the wheels. Also next week, if icy and frosty, I'll be testing out the sipes So far, I'd go as far as saying they are a must-have if you want to *enjoy* your Lotus over winter. They really inspire confidence and drift controllably and predictably when they do eventually let go, but the real difference between these and more heavily treaded summer tyres designed for average-weight (1400 kg) cars is that they grip from cold and aren't adversely affected by the Lotus' light weight. I've driven Lotuses on tyres that look well treaded but were 'high-performance' tyres for heavy sports saloons, and the Lotus was too light for the tyre. It sounds bogus but I can only go on experience...
Will do some proper miles at the weekend and next week, and then have a 400 mile round trip for my girlfriend's mother's 60th birthday party in Somerset next weekend. Next week is forecast subzero temperatures with the chance of snow.
First impressions? Well it was 5˚C when I had the tyres fitted. The road was colder than that - it was frosty this morning. Driving to the tyre shop on A048Rs was the same old 'too cold for the compound' feeling with absolutely *no* confidence from the tyres and the typical little slides on 90˚ bends. Full throttle in second gear works until 4k rpm when the tyres go all squirmy and the car starts to snake. With the Pirellis on, the car is immediately quieter, less harsh through the suspension and, critically, the car feels like it's got 100% grip from cold. Second gear full throttle is possible to the rev limiter without the tyres 'feeling' at all squirmy or uncomfortable. Chucking the car into a 90 degree left with terror-tactics lift-then-boot allows the car to drift gently, then start to power oversteer. All completely telegraphed and not snappy at all. The sidewalls are softer than the A048Rs (most tyres are, short of run-flats) but they're not excessively floppy, and there's not a hell of a lot of sidewall anyway, so I haven't felt too much 'lurching' so far. I'll test this properly on a trackday, I suspect it won't be a problem on the road but will show up in quick direction changes (such as Surtees into McLaren / Clearways at Brands). That said, if it's raining I reckon they'll be invaluable on a trackday
In short - exactly how they performed on the old blown 993 and exactly what I was expecting. What wasn't quite so expected was the decrease in noise and increase in comfort - the A048Rs do ride quite harshly but I was expecting *more* noise, not less from the heavily siped deep treadblocks... I guess there's more rubber on the road with A048Rs, but still the expected 'thrum' from the flexible tread on the winter tyres isn't there.
Bit of a result, though I haven't tried high speed stuff nor really heavy loads yet (i.e. a trackday). No deep water to try them in yet, though I'm sure that'll come with time. One very dodgy aspect to the A048Rs is that when they're cold, the car is happy to trigger the ABS even when comparatively mild braking. With the winters, no chance of lockup as the tyres are performing at their optimum when cold. Excellent confidence-booster
Will get photos and do more extensive testing over the weekend - if I don't get enough time on the road then I'll wait until after the Somerset trip when I'll have had a good 500 miles under the wheels. Also next week, if icy and frosty, I'll be testing out the sipes
So far, I'd go as far as saying they are a must-have if you want to *enjoy* your Lotus over winter. They really inspire confidence and drift controllably and predictably when they do eventually let go, but the real difference between these and more heavily treaded summer tyres designed for average-weight (1400 kg) cars is that they grip from cold and aren't adversely affected by the Lotus' light weight. I've driven Lotuses on tyres that look well treaded but were 'high-performance' tyres for heavy sports saloons, and the Lotus was too light for the tyre. It sounds bogus but I can only go on experience...Good to hear that the guys at SE in 7oaks are as accommodating as their brethren in Tunbridge Wells. They fitted all the tyres I had on the Honda'd S2 (about 4 or 5 sets) and service was first class everytime. All of the guys took great care, asked me to show them where the jacking points were, always torqued up according to my requirements and always asked what pressures to set them to. They treated my new Team Dynamics wheels with kidd gloves and I can't recommend them enough. £10 tips every time.
Also very good to hear that you've uncovered another recommendation for winter tyres. The comments you make about the ride quality and sidewalls with AO48's are less pronounced with 888's, but nevertheless are still very noticeable vs. a less track-focussed tyre (many moan about Toyo T1R's, but as road tyres I found them to be excellent value, and perfectly good).
Will await your track and longer term test reports with interest
Also very good to hear that you've uncovered another recommendation for winter tyres. The comments you make about the ride quality and sidewalls with AO48's are less pronounced with 888's, but nevertheless are still very noticeable vs. a less track-focussed tyre (many moan about Toyo T1R's, but as road tyres I found them to be excellent value, and perfectly good).
Will await your track and longer term test reports with interest
Well the weather gods decided to give me perfect testing opportunities 
And yes, the car works in snow! Instant grip. Well, relatively - obviously with a coating of snow and ice on the ground the car slides about, but with the winter tyres it's directly proportional to power and slip angle. There's none of the grip-grip-crash behaviour of tyres working below their effective compound temperature, but the grip slowly reduces as you apply more power / corner harder. It's perfectly linear and the grip at low speeds is as you'd expect in, say, rain - the compound grips at subzero temperatures.
It means you can piss about doing big oversteer without it being totally out of control, and then when you want to just get somewhere, as long as you keep within the (very well telegraphed) limits of the tyres, it won't surprise you. The sipes even help bite into packed snow which would be instant loss of control with A048Rs and potential slippage with summer treaded tyres like T1-Rs.
However all this comes at a price of ultimate grip. They're incredibly progressive and malleable and, with my Exige geo at least, you'll get early understeer which can be neutralised with either a quick lift and re-application of power, or just powered through into slight oversteer. I didn't get this on the road with the A048Rs due to the speed you need to hold - it's pretty much the same behaviour as I was getting through Clark Curve and Clearways at Brands (not too many places on the road here where I can carry that sort of corner speed
). So yes, the limits on the winter tyres are significantly lower in good conditions, but they still perform in poor conditions where the A048Rs would be dicey.
On a dry trackday (apart from an ice-cold day) then I'm going to give away a couple of seconds at least to cars still on A048Rs or 888s - the grip available with the trackday rubber is incredible. But in the rain or subzero temperatures, the winter tyres are a revelation. Just need a downpour now and some standing water to complete the testing!!!
And yes, the car works in snow! Instant grip. Well, relatively - obviously with a coating of snow and ice on the ground the car slides about, but with the winter tyres it's directly proportional to power and slip angle. There's none of the grip-grip-crash behaviour of tyres working below their effective compound temperature, but the grip slowly reduces as you apply more power / corner harder. It's perfectly linear and the grip at low speeds is as you'd expect in, say, rain - the compound grips at subzero temperatures.
It means you can piss about doing big oversteer without it being totally out of control, and then when you want to just get somewhere, as long as you keep within the (very well telegraphed) limits of the tyres, it won't surprise you. The sipes even help bite into packed snow which would be instant loss of control with A048Rs and potential slippage with summer treaded tyres like T1-Rs.
However all this comes at a price of ultimate grip. They're incredibly progressive and malleable and, with my Exige geo at least, you'll get early understeer which can be neutralised with either a quick lift and re-application of power, or just powered through into slight oversteer. I didn't get this on the road with the A048Rs due to the speed you need to hold - it's pretty much the same behaviour as I was getting through Clark Curve and Clearways at Brands (not too many places on the road here where I can carry that sort of corner speed
). So yes, the limits on the winter tyres are significantly lower in good conditions, but they still perform in poor conditions where the A048Rs would be dicey.On a dry trackday (apart from an ice-cold day) then I'm going to give away a couple of seconds at least to cars still on A048Rs or 888s - the grip available with the trackday rubber is incredible. But in the rain or subzero temperatures, the winter tyres are a revelation. Just need a downpour now and some standing water to complete the testing!!!
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