Parquet Flooring Woes
Discussion
I wonder if anyone out there has some ideas that may get me out of a bind.
A year ago we started a renovation project on out apartment in Luxembourg. The project was supposed to take 8-12 weeks and included new staircases, doors, redesign of upstairs and the point of the question open plan living space with a walnut parquet floor. The works still continue.
Basically, for the first 5 weeks the property was completely empty, all the messy work was completed and we moved back in whilst the floors were laid, decorating done etc.
Some sizes/Specs.
The parquet covers the ground floor. This floor is about 100m2 with the longest run being just over 10m. The flooring was about £80 p.m and is 14mm thick, each board is 200mm wide and about 2000mm long (cannot remember exactly)
I was convinced (nagged) not to lay the floor myself but to get a contractor in and to pay a local projetc manager to liase with contractors - less said about him the better.
From the moment the floor was laid it has failed to settle. Bounces up and down as you walk across it, groans constantly and the boards do not lay flat to each other. Fixes attempted so far include screwing it to the chap, that didn't work as looked s
te. Gumming down sections, other parts raised up in protest. Lifting the floor on four occasions, putting down self levelling compound and re-laying the floor, again other parts just react badly.
Other points are.
At outset the plan was for an uninterupted floor with no thresholds. We now have three in an attempt to let the floor settle independantly.
The contractor laid the floor withour reading the specs - longest run allowed 9m.
The contractor has always put the furniture straight back on the floor after remedial work - is this as bad as I think?
The contractor has stated that the problems are down to the underlying chap being out of parameters - too much deviation - my point is that he had an empty flat for a week to address this. Anybody know what the max deviations would be?
Problem is we are now being sued for not paying for the floor - yeah, cheeky bd has said he will do no more work till he is paid, I reacted......umm badly.
Any ideas, short of taking the horrible little git into the woods and burying him, would be greatly appreciated.
A year ago we started a renovation project on out apartment in Luxembourg. The project was supposed to take 8-12 weeks and included new staircases, doors, redesign of upstairs and the point of the question open plan living space with a walnut parquet floor. The works still continue.
Basically, for the first 5 weeks the property was completely empty, all the messy work was completed and we moved back in whilst the floors were laid, decorating done etc.
Some sizes/Specs.
The parquet covers the ground floor. This floor is about 100m2 with the longest run being just over 10m. The flooring was about £80 p.m and is 14mm thick, each board is 200mm wide and about 2000mm long (cannot remember exactly)
I was convinced (nagged) not to lay the floor myself but to get a contractor in and to pay a local projetc manager to liase with contractors - less said about him the better.
From the moment the floor was laid it has failed to settle. Bounces up and down as you walk across it, groans constantly and the boards do not lay flat to each other. Fixes attempted so far include screwing it to the chap, that didn't work as looked s
te. Gumming down sections, other parts raised up in protest. Lifting the floor on four occasions, putting down self levelling compound and re-laying the floor, again other parts just react badly.Other points are.
At outset the plan was for an uninterupted floor with no thresholds. We now have three in an attempt to let the floor settle independantly.
The contractor laid the floor withour reading the specs - longest run allowed 9m.
The contractor has always put the furniture straight back on the floor after remedial work - is this as bad as I think?
The contractor has stated that the problems are down to the underlying chap being out of parameters - too much deviation - my point is that he had an empty flat for a week to address this. Anybody know what the max deviations would be?
Problem is we are now being sued for not paying for the floor - yeah, cheeky b
d has said he will do no more work till he is paid, I reacted......umm badly.Any ideas, short of taking the horrible little git into the woods and burying him, would be greatly appreciated.
Does the parquet have free movement at the edges? Should be a gap left at the perimeter to allow for expansion/contraction hiddne by the skirting boards.
Level tolerance is normally on the packing if it is a prepack product. Wood floowing is best glued direct to the screed IMHO but should use special adhesive.
One last thought, how long were the boards in the flat before laying? If it is solid timber it is vital that the stuff is unpacked and left to adjust to natural moisture content before laying.
Level tolerance is normally on the packing if it is a prepack product. Wood floowing is best glued direct to the screed IMHO but should use special adhesive.
One last thought, how long were the boards in the flat before laying? If it is solid timber it is vital that the stuff is unpacked and left to adjust to natural moisture content before laying.
We have wood block parquet in our house across the whole of the ground floor and I back up the comments about. Our blocks were dried before delivery, and then we left them in the house for 6 weeks before lying. Once they were stuck down we wacked up the under floor heating for another 4 weeks to drive out the moisture. The blocks were the sanded down, filled and lacquered. They have down a year now but we have still have experienced some shrinkage, but not bad. In 5 to 10 years we will sand and fill them again them again.
My point is its all down to the prep, get that wrong and you will always have problems.
My point is its all down to the prep, get that wrong and you will always have problems.
A possible solution might be to lay large sheets of plywood underneath and then a foam mat lay the floor again, should remove the worst of the surface deviation and prevent "squeaking"
However this is in my opinion a bodge fix, I think the issues are as others have said, a natural material thats still drying out/changing shape.
I wouldn't glue it down as that asking for trouble.
However this is in my opinion a bodge fix, I think the issues are as others have said, a natural material thats still drying out/changing shape.
I wouldn't glue it down as that asking for trouble.
davemac250 said:
Problem is we are now being sued for not paying for the floor - yeah, cheeky bd has said he will do no more work till he is paid, I reacted......umm badly.
Any ideas, short of taking the horrible little git into the woods and burying him, would be greatly appreciated.
If the courts over there are anything like the ones in France, burying him would be far more enjoyable and productive. d has said he will do no more work till he is paid, I reacted......umm badly.Any ideas, short of taking the horrible little git into the woods and burying him, would be greatly appreciated.
Make sure you get a good french/luxembourgian? lawyer rather than an ex-pat (e.g. yank or brit) who's decided he knows about local law. From experience it will go badly.
What you have there doesnt sound like a parquet floor, is it solid or (more likely) an engineered product? (Engineered means its plywood with a wear layer of solid wood on the face)
Engineered boards can be either glued down or 'floating'...but NOT both, as this means the floor will expand & contract at different rates which will cause it to blow.
If its a solid wood floor it shouldnt be floating, but its uncommon to get a solid floor in the size you have.
What was the new floor laid onto, an existing timber floor, concrete, or a new screed? If it was a new screed you have to be very carefull the moisture level is below a specific percentage...it takes a long time for screed to reach this figure if its just been laid & is a common mistake that we often see. The results of laying a floor onto damp screed are quite dramatic.
Do you have under floor heating or hot pipes running under the new floor?
As suggested, have you checked an expansion gap has been allowed for?
I could go on for ages but it might be easier if you contact me via my profile & I'll email back my mumber if you want to have a chat...I sell an incredible amount of this stuff & hopefully will be able to help.
Nick
www.tbrewer.co.uk
(note to Mods...thats not a hard sell, just a pointer to show the OP what we do)
Engineered boards can be either glued down or 'floating'...but NOT both, as this means the floor will expand & contract at different rates which will cause it to blow.
If its a solid wood floor it shouldnt be floating, but its uncommon to get a solid floor in the size you have.
What was the new floor laid onto, an existing timber floor, concrete, or a new screed? If it was a new screed you have to be very carefull the moisture level is below a specific percentage...it takes a long time for screed to reach this figure if its just been laid & is a common mistake that we often see. The results of laying a floor onto damp screed are quite dramatic.
Do you have under floor heating or hot pipes running under the new floor?
As suggested, have you checked an expansion gap has been allowed for?
I could go on for ages but it might be easier if you contact me via my profile & I'll email back my mumber if you want to have a chat...I sell an incredible amount of this stuff & hopefully will be able to help.
Nick
www.tbrewer.co.uk
(note to Mods...thats not a hard sell, just a pointer to show the OP what we do)
Thanks all for the advice.
Some extra points
The floor is concrete with a layer of Chap. I haven't seen the state of this as was out of the property when the prep work was carried out.
On top of the layer of chap the contractor left in place a layer of lino and then put down a layer of thick(ish) paper which is marked up a sound deadening material.
Part of the remedial work he has carried out has been to lift areas of the floor and the lino as a problem persists and to put down egalin(sp?) which looks like self levelling compound to me.
His process is to lift the floor on day one, have the egalin poured, allow it to dry day 2 and on day 3 relay the floor and then put the furniture back. I am guessing from the information here he probably isn't leaving this to dry long enough.
The stuff is an engineered product, I did some digging last night and it is shown as free flowing. So again I do not get his sticking bits down. Would the free flowing nature be upset by having fixed object through the floor area? There are four feet to the staircase that go through the area into the concrete floor. Would this creat pinch points?
I have no idea how long the flooring was left in the house prior to laying, we were not allowed on site due to the demolition work, however as the place was open to the element with no heating etc, I guess this would be moot, he should have waited for the house to be up to temp and the wood to dry out?
there are expansion gaps around the edges, although these have had to be made bigger, twice.
Guesses are correct, there are hot water pipes under the floor feeding the central heating.
Nick, I'll email you this direct if I may? Much appreciated.
Oh, I not only have a Burger lawyer, she is dead cute as well! Always goes down well with the judiciary.
Some extra points
The floor is concrete with a layer of Chap. I haven't seen the state of this as was out of the property when the prep work was carried out.
On top of the layer of chap the contractor left in place a layer of lino and then put down a layer of thick(ish) paper which is marked up a sound deadening material.
Part of the remedial work he has carried out has been to lift areas of the floor and the lino as a problem persists and to put down egalin(sp?) which looks like self levelling compound to me.
His process is to lift the floor on day one, have the egalin poured, allow it to dry day 2 and on day 3 relay the floor and then put the furniture back. I am guessing from the information here he probably isn't leaving this to dry long enough.
The stuff is an engineered product, I did some digging last night and it is shown as free flowing. So again I do not get his sticking bits down. Would the free flowing nature be upset by having fixed object through the floor area? There are four feet to the staircase that go through the area into the concrete floor. Would this creat pinch points?
I have no idea how long the flooring was left in the house prior to laying, we were not allowed on site due to the demolition work, however as the place was open to the element with no heating etc, I guess this would be moot, he should have waited for the house to be up to temp and the wood to dry out?
there are expansion gaps around the edges, although these have had to be made bigger, twice.
Guesses are correct, there are hot water pipes under the floor feeding the central heating.
Nick, I'll email you this direct if I may? Much appreciated.
Oh, I not only have a Burger lawyer, she is dead cute as well! Always goes down well with the judiciary.
Hi all,
A long time between updates, but I hate it when things are left unfinished!
I just wanted to post my appreciation for Nick and his taking the time to speak (at length) with me about this and review pictures and descriptions.
We went to judgement today - a fairer system IMO than the UK where a court appointed 'expert' attends, looks at the problem, listens to the two sides and offer an opinion and if appropriate, a suggested resolution.
Well, long story short, we won.
Thanks to Nick pointing out some floors (I know, I know!) in their laying process.
I listened to the joiner give his side of the job and the problems he faced and how we were so unreasonable for wanting a floor that doesn't groan and bounce up and down.
I then had my turn. I showed the expert the areas of concern and the pinch points Nick identified and the failing in how they laid the floor - not leaving the wood to acclimatise, fixing it to the skirting and sticking it down in places.
I also got to tell the court officials, that far from being unreasonable I had offered to pay for the materials to end the matter, even though I seriously doubted we had the right floor for the conditions in the apartment.
The joiners face was a picture, he turned puce! He claimed that this hadn't happened, I was lying to make him look bad and that of course he would have accepted. When I showed him the email to the project manager I think he was close to tears - he hadn't had this passed onto him, and had ended up shelling out on lawyers fees for nothing (I am insured so have not had this pain!).
The expert ruled that we should not pay for any of the labour on the job and that we should pay a contribution towards the materials as two rooms do not have the problems.
As the Luxembourger I had with me said - 'Well that is a score draw with you winning on away goals' The Lux courts are well known for siding with the Burghers.
All we do now is wait on the percentage of contribution to be agreed by the expert.
Sometimes you do have good days.
Again, thanks Nick.
A long time between updates, but I hate it when things are left unfinished!
I just wanted to post my appreciation for Nick and his taking the time to speak (at length) with me about this and review pictures and descriptions.
We went to judgement today - a fairer system IMO than the UK where a court appointed 'expert' attends, looks at the problem, listens to the two sides and offer an opinion and if appropriate, a suggested resolution.
Well, long story short, we won.
Thanks to Nick pointing out some floors (I know, I know!) in their laying process.
I listened to the joiner give his side of the job and the problems he faced and how we were so unreasonable for wanting a floor that doesn't groan and bounce up and down.
I then had my turn. I showed the expert the areas of concern and the pinch points Nick identified and the failing in how they laid the floor - not leaving the wood to acclimatise, fixing it to the skirting and sticking it down in places.
I also got to tell the court officials, that far from being unreasonable I had offered to pay for the materials to end the matter, even though I seriously doubted we had the right floor for the conditions in the apartment.
The joiners face was a picture, he turned puce! He claimed that this hadn't happened, I was lying to make him look bad and that of course he would have accepted. When I showed him the email to the project manager I think he was close to tears - he hadn't had this passed onto him, and had ended up shelling out on lawyers fees for nothing (I am insured so have not had this pain!).
The expert ruled that we should not pay for any of the labour on the job and that we should pay a contribution towards the materials as two rooms do not have the problems.
As the Luxembourger I had with me said - 'Well that is a score draw with you winning on away goals' The Lux courts are well known for siding with the Burghers.
All we do now is wait on the percentage of contribution to be agreed by the expert.
Sometimes you do have good days.
Again, thanks Nick.
Gargamel said:
Good News, sounds like the PM will be the one getting buried in the woods
You have no idea how much I would enjoy helping with that project.He was a lying, useless, two faced, unhelpful
.Words cannot express the loathing I had loathing for this s
t.It came out that the whole issue of the uneven floor could and should have been addressed when the house was gutted.
The PM didn't bother to pass on the message asking if I'd spend an extra grand on the project to level the floors throughout and said to the joiner that it would be in tolerance.
But karma has robbed me of the chance to take this up with him.
He has had a stroke.
Can't help feeling a bit sorry for the tradesman, it sounds like the flooring is expanding which is sometimes impossible to prevent even if the boards have been kiln dried and laid to acclimatize for months, although you said it wasn't solid timber so that should be minimal.
I once saw similar flooring to yours but solid oak which just would not stop expanding and swelling! It bellied up a huge wave in the middle of the room and pushed the patio door cill an inch off the brick work. This was top quality kiln dried timber at a top price too. All in all it expanded about 6 inches over a 7 metre span over the course of 12 months before it settled down, unbelievable!
Another one I saw was a standard tounge and grooved chip board floor on a new build which expanded so much it actually bowed the external walls of the house out!
I once saw similar flooring to yours but solid oak which just would not stop expanding and swelling! It bellied up a huge wave in the middle of the room and pushed the patio door cill an inch off the brick work. This was top quality kiln dried timber at a top price too. All in all it expanded about 6 inches over a 7 metre span over the course of 12 months before it settled down, unbelievable!
Another one I saw was a standard tounge and grooved chip board floor on a new build which expanded so much it actually bowed the external walls of the house out!
davemac250 said:
We went to judgement today - a fairer system IMO than the UK where a court appointed 'expert' attends, looks at the problem, listens to the two sides and offer an opinion and if appropriate, a suggested resolution.
Actually the UK courts have an 'arbitration service' too, but I haven't used it.Proof is the key. If your side is reasonable and in writing (as it was) and his isn't, you should win. The project manager is also to blame for not passing the message on, which might have solved the matter.
Did the claimant really clock up lawyer's fees at such as early stage?
deeps said:
Can't help feeling a bit sorry for the tradesman, it sounds like the flooring is expanding which is sometimes impossible to prevent even if the boards have been kiln dried and laid to acclimatize for months, although you said it wasn't solid timber so that should be minimal.
I once saw similar flooring to yours but solid oak which just would not stop expanding and swelling! It bellied up a huge wave in the middle of the room and pushed the patio door cill an inch off the brick work. This was top quality kiln dried timber at a top price too. All in all it expanded about 6 inches over a 7 metre span over the course of 12 months before it settled down, unbelievable!
Another one I saw was a standard tounge and grooved chip board floor on a new build which expanded so much it actually bowed the external walls of the house out!
Don't.I once saw similar flooring to yours but solid oak which just would not stop expanding and swelling! It bellied up a huge wave in the middle of the room and pushed the patio door cill an inch off the brick work. This was top quality kiln dried timber at a top price too. All in all it expanded about 6 inches over a 7 metre span over the course of 12 months before it settled down, unbelievable!
Another one I saw was a standard tounge and grooved chip board floor on a new build which expanded so much it actually bowed the external walls of the house out!
He was told after I spoke with Nick.
He ool no notice and continued to seal the floor to the skirting.
Anyway he left big enough gaps between some of the boards to account for it.
He later admitted this was the first engineered wood floor he had ever laid - he got it wrong and continued to do so every time it was lifted and put back.
Simpo Two said:
davemac250 said:
We went to judgement today - a fairer system IMO than the UK where a court appointed 'expert' attends, looks at the problem, listens to the two sides and offer an opinion and if appropriate, a suggested resolution.
Actually the UK courts have an 'arbitration service' too, but I haven't used it.Proof is the key. If your side is reasonable and in writing (as it was) and his isn't, you should win. The project manager is also to blame for not passing the message on, which might have solved the matter.
Did the claimant really clock up lawyer's fees at such as early stage?
The down side is that legal fees clock up from the start and you must employ a lawyer - wonder which profession decided on that!
My 'bill' is currently €4000 for what amounts to very little.
I doubt the joiners insurance will be too chuffed when they learn of my offer to negotiate from the start.
Proof and reasonable have little bearing when going against a local. It is a closed shop and victories, even as minor as this against a Burgher firm are very rare - unless you can get it heard outside of Lux.
This whole thing comes down to the PM. He caused the whole thing to escalate to this point and has walked (hobbled) away without penalty - that galls.
However, his actions with us cost him his two biggest ongoing contracts and lost him his reputation in the expat community - it is now shot in the trade as well from the reaction of the joiner. I just regret that he has probably had to retire from ill health before this hurt him financially.
davemac250 said:
Proof and reasonable have little bearing when going against a local. It is a closed shop and victories, even as minor as this against a Burgher firm are very rare - unless you can get it heard outside of Lux.
Blimey. It's funny how the Brits always get screwed by our European 'allies', yet hand out stuff on a plate in return.deeps said:
Can't help feeling a bit sorry for the tradesman, it sounds like the flooring is expanding which is sometimes impossible to prevent even if the boards have been kiln dried and laid to acclimatize for months, although you said it wasn't solid timber so that should be minimal.
I once saw similar flooring to yours but solid oak which just would not stop expanding and swelling! It bellied up a huge wave in the middle of the room and pushed the patio door cill an inch off the brick work. This was top quality kiln dried timber at a top price too. All in all it expanded about 6 inches over a 7 metre span over the course of 12 months before it settled down, unbelievable!
Another one I saw was a standard tounge and grooved chip board floor on a new build which expanded so much it actually bowed the external walls of the house out!
dont feel sorry for the tradesman in this case.I once saw similar flooring to yours but solid oak which just would not stop expanding and swelling! It bellied up a huge wave in the middle of the room and pushed the patio door cill an inch off the brick work. This was top quality kiln dried timber at a top price too. All in all it expanded about 6 inches over a 7 metre span over the course of 12 months before it settled down, unbelievable!
Another one I saw was a standard tounge and grooved chip board floor on a new build which expanded so much it actually bowed the external walls of the house out!
From experience I can pretty much promise you that in all these cases there was nothing wrong with the product, chances are the subfloor had a high moisture content & oak will soak it up like a sponge, expand, then your whole floor is on the move!
Ive been to sites where customers have threatened me with all sorts of nastiness as a result of a badly bowing floor, only for me to lift one board to find the whole thing was saturated from a leaky radiator pipe that a plumber had bodged allowing water to flow under the floating floor, heating pipes touching solid wood etc etc.
Ive just seen one site where I went to great lengths to explain the fitting instructions to someone, only to find he returned the adhesive as he has floated a solid oak T&G floor with no fixings & no expansion gap at all.
He's a trainee architect so that makes it ok, he obviously knows best...but I give it three months at the most!
Nick
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