Extra pay for doing more stuff
Discussion
I know that in a job grading sense people expect more money when they do extra stuff, but i have trouble getting my head around the attitude that says that if you don't pay me, I won't do anything except the bare minimum I am paid for. And I don't confine that view to lower level jobs. I have always presumed that if I can see something that needs doing (liking taking responsibility for organising some training or taking responsibility for a system that is in a mess), that is all part of the job.
Recently I have worked with so called 'professionals', who frankly want paying more for any extra responsibility, including any attempt to improve the impact of their work. It seems that as long as their performance management says they are doing an OK job and can't be sacked, thereafter they want paying more to arrange some training, set up a new system, review a policy or look for ideas about how to do things better.
So, my question is: should you be paid more for doing the 'good citizen' stuff like trying to improve the way things are done at work?
Recently I have worked with so called 'professionals', who frankly want paying more for any extra responsibility, including any attempt to improve the impact of their work. It seems that as long as their performance management says they are doing an OK job and can't be sacked, thereafter they want paying more to arrange some training, set up a new system, review a policy or look for ideas about how to do things better.
So, my question is: should you be paid more for doing the 'good citizen' stuff like trying to improve the way things are done at work?
Edited by Brown and Boris on Monday 19th January 11:04
There is a line and I will be the first to help out where things need doing but one of the reasons I left my last job was because I was given in effect two jobs.
1 was looking after a global shipping system which involved working closely with people in shanghai for software development.
Then Desktop support. I left because I was paid s
t for the one job let alone staying late every night to complete what hadn't been done in the day because I was fixing machines or setting up new computers.
1 was looking after a global shipping system which involved working closely with people in shanghai for software development.
Then Desktop support. I left because I was paid s
t for the one job let alone staying late every night to complete what hadn't been done in the day because I was fixing machines or setting up new computers.miniman said:
If you want to progress your career and make some serious money one day, then you get on and do the things that need doing. In my book, anyone who demands more money for going a little further than the job spec demands is not someone I will be hanging on to.
Yep. I'm a young bloke at the start and I've progressed further than the people I started with. Why? Because I'm the one who stays back and does the work when required. I don't ask for pay rises every 3 months. I work hard and I get rewarded as a result.
I've always seen it as give and take really. You work the extra hours and go the extra mile when needed and in return the company cut's you a little slack when things aren't so busy (for example letting you go to appointments without taking 1/2 a day of your holiday). Has always worked for me and have had good relationships with my seniors, as long as know-one takes the piss.
I understand that when doing a job, I will do it to the best of my ability, and "go the extra mile" to give a good impression/get the job done.
I will take the initative, if I see something needs doing, and often stay late to assist other departments (I work in IT, but often stay behind if the Engineering department are in the st, in order to help them out.)
However, there is a line. If I am doing the job of more than 1 person, and giving up a large amount of my time to do so, (particularly as I am one of the few in the department without another half to go home to, so I'm seen as an easy touch - i.e. No other half to argue over it), then I expect to be recompenced for that.
I also object to doing things that are meant to be done by my boss, because he cannot be arsed. For example, it is his responsibility to arrange the shift rotas, particularly during the summer, and over christmas. However, he never does, and it then falls to someone else in the department, who then gets all the st, when people are not getting the holidays they want, and all the crap shifts at christmas. He gets paid to do this, and take the st that goes with it. Not me.
Another reason for the wanting more pay, for very little extra, is the "Performance related pay" schemes which seem to be the current craze. These promote the "do your job and you will get extra in return". I'm more of a "you get paid to do a job so do it" kind of person.
I will take the initative, if I see something needs doing, and often stay late to assist other departments (I work in IT, but often stay behind if the Engineering department are in the s
t, in order to help them out.)However, there is a line. If I am doing the job of more than 1 person, and giving up a large amount of my time to do so, (particularly as I am one of the few in the department without another half to go home to, so I'm seen as an easy touch - i.e. No other half to argue over it), then I expect to be recompenced for that.
I also object to doing things that are meant to be done by my boss, because he cannot be arsed. For example, it is his responsibility to arrange the shift rotas, particularly during the summer, and over christmas. However, he never does, and it then falls to someone else in the department, who then gets all the s
t, when people are not getting the holidays they want, and all the crap shifts at christmas. He gets paid to do this, and take the st that goes with it. Not me.Another reason for the wanting more pay, for very little extra, is the "Performance related pay" schemes which seem to be the current craze. These promote the "do your job and you will get extra in return". I'm more of a "you get paid to do a job so do it" kind of person.
Depends - IF your a contractor then you strictly do what you are paid to do. If they ask you to do additional activities then a rate review is the norm.
But as a perm slightly different. You need to think firstly how long are you intending on staying with your current company if not that long i.e. a year or 2 max then its pretty pointless really - likewise if its effecting your std duties then you shouldnt do it.
If you intend to stay at the company long term then it will certainly help HOWEVER - I have tried this and found that many of the people I was helping out (snr to me and possible next line Mgrs) left /moved onto a different role so you get a new person in the role again... thus all that effort wasted.
Another thing to consider is this - does it enhance your skills? If it does then do it if it doesnt i.e. photocoping etc dont. Although IF you help out someone else at your own level when they are struggling that favour may be returned - OR they are not able to do their job correctly in which case your helping dead wood.
Lastly - I have worked in companies where the culture was to do long hrs i.e. people would frown if you left before 9pm at month end (even if you'd started a few hrs before them & had no lunch break & even if your own work was up to date and the only reason they are still there is their own inefficiencies/errors) its good to then list all the additional duties your doing & after some time of this present this to your line Mgr incl the extra hrs this will result in 1 of 2 things - either your too slow & you need training a good thing or its just too much work so that will result in a review of workloads or three they will see whats the root cause of the workload and review what outputs they really need and scrap some non value add activities.
But as a perm slightly different. You need to think firstly how long are you intending on staying with your current company if not that long i.e. a year or 2 max then its pretty pointless really - likewise if its effecting your std duties then you shouldnt do it.
If you intend to stay at the company long term then it will certainly help HOWEVER - I have tried this and found that many of the people I was helping out (snr to me and possible next line Mgrs) left /moved onto a different role so you get a new person in the role again... thus all that effort wasted.
Another thing to consider is this - does it enhance your skills? If it does then do it if it doesnt i.e. photocoping etc dont. Although IF you help out someone else at your own level when they are struggling that favour may be returned - OR they are not able to do their job correctly in which case your helping dead wood.
Lastly - I have worked in companies where the culture was to do long hrs i.e. people would frown if you left before 9pm at month end (even if you'd started a few hrs before them & had no lunch break & even if your own work was up to date and the only reason they are still there is their own inefficiencies/errors) its good to then list all the additional duties your doing & after some time of this present this to your line Mgr incl the extra hrs this will result in 1 of 2 things - either your too slow & you need training a good thing or its just too much work so that will result in a review of workloads or three they will see whats the root cause of the workload and review what outputs they really need and scrap some non value add activities.
It is a bit of a double edged question really.
Personally my opinion is that the less someone is paid and less senior they are the less likely I am to expect them to hang around and the more likely I am to note it when they do.
Personally I expect to work the hours I need to deal with the work I have on and if that work happens to be office/CPD related it is treated no less importantly than Client related work (although it will almost always come second to that ). If that means I arrive and leave on time great, if it means I have to stay late or work until 3am or whatever that is what I am paid to do. It does swing both ways though. In return for my willingness to do this I expect that if I want to leave an hour of so early from time to time I will be able to do without having to ‘take a half day’ holiday. Give and take.
I do not expect my secretary to stay in the office until 9pm. I expect her to be in on time and to leave on time. If she needs to leave early I have no problems and know that she makes the time up. Rarely I will ask if she can stay late (only and hour or so). I would not hold it against her if she said no (she never has) nor would I expect her to ask for extra money to do so.
Our Junior has stayed late a few times to help out and has never asked for anything extra in return. She was the only person to receive any form of proper bonus this year.
IMO the higher you are up the food chain the more you should expect to have to have a flexible attitude to work. If I were suddenly asked to effectively do the job of two people permanently (as opposed to holiday cover) I might just mention something, but then that would be part of the initial discussion before I took on the extra in the first place.
Personally my opinion is that the less someone is paid and less senior they are the less likely I am to expect them to hang around and the more likely I am to note it when they do.
Personally I expect to work the hours I need to deal with the work I have on and if that work happens to be office/CPD related it is treated no less importantly than Client related work (although it will almost always come second to that ). If that means I arrive and leave on time great, if it means I have to stay late or work until 3am or whatever that is what I am paid to do. It does swing both ways though. In return for my willingness to do this I expect that if I want to leave an hour of so early from time to time I will be able to do without having to ‘take a half day’ holiday. Give and take.
I do not expect my secretary to stay in the office until 9pm. I expect her to be in on time and to leave on time. If she needs to leave early I have no problems and know that she makes the time up. Rarely I will ask if she can stay late (only and hour or so). I would not hold it against her if she said no (she never has) nor would I expect her to ask for extra money to do so.
Our Junior has stayed late a few times to help out and has never asked for anything extra in return. She was the only person to receive any form of proper bonus this year.
IMO the higher you are up the food chain the more you should expect to have to have a flexible attitude to work. If I were suddenly asked to effectively do the job of two people permanently (as opposed to holiday cover) I might just mention something, but then that would be part of the initial discussion before I took on the extra in the first place.
Colonial said:
miniman said:
If you want to progress your career and make some serious money one day, then you get on and do the things that need doing. In my book, anyone who demands more money for going a little further than the job spec demands is not someone I will be hanging on to.
Yep. I'm a young bloke at the start and I've progressed further than the people I started with. Why? Because I'm the one who stays back and does the work when required. I don't ask for pay rises every 3 months. I work hard and I get rewarded as a result.
Darkslider said:
Colonial said:
miniman said:
If you want to progress your career and make some serious money one day, then you get on and do the things that need doing. In my book, anyone who demands more money for going a little further than the job spec demands is not someone I will be hanging on to.
Yep. I'm a young bloke at the start and I've progressed further than the people I started with. Why? Because I'm the one who stays back and does the work when required. I don't ask for pay rises every 3 months. I work hard and I get rewarded as a result.
WRT meeting dealines and working late to meet them - IF its your std job then your just slow or impacted by systems etc which is annoying but should be highlighted to your line mgr so faults can be noted and service level agreements can be enforced.
If your working late on an adhoc late in the day activity for the following day then I would expect at least a thank you for your efforts (not £ just the line mgr or the snr mgr whoever your doing the work for to come over - when its done and say the words thank you for your efforts its appreciated etc).
If your working late on an adhoc late in the day activity for the following day then I would expect at least a thank you for your efforts (not £ just the line mgr or the snr mgr whoever your doing the work for to come over - when its done and say the words thank you for your efforts its appreciated etc).
Without geting into teacher bashing (again) it was a group of teachers who roused this in my mind when I was looking at their PM system. Basically they seem to get a point on their pay scale if they pursue certain targets (like getting a 9% increase in A-C grades with group X in year 11, reviewing policy in an area or arranging field trips). In reality it seems they get to choose which class they focus on, and unsurprisngly choose the classes where there is a clear chance rather than the kids who probably need the boost in the less bright classes. Even then some said that the £2K wasn't worth the extra effort. Once they hit the top of the payscale their interest in going the extra mile seemed to hit the buffers.
More Hours or MORE responsibility ?
If I'm loaded up, for more 7.4 hours a week (20%) than my 37 hours for more than 2 weeks, and it's not my own fault for agreeing to daft timescales, or making some cock up, then I'm going to ask my manager for help from other team members in order. Usually my work mates, and me just share the jobs we've got on so that no one is doing too much more than the rest, and then tell the boss.
On the responsibility side, we just do what we are told, note the additional 'experience' and add it to the departmental skills matrix, and point it out at the yearly review.
If I'm loaded up, for more 7.4 hours a week (20%) than my 37 hours for more than 2 weeks, and it's not my own fault for agreeing to daft timescales, or making some cock up, then I'm going to ask my manager for help from other team members in order. Usually my work mates, and me just share the jobs we've got on so that no one is doing too much more than the rest, and then tell the boss.
On the responsibility side, we just do what we are told, note the additional 'experience' and add it to the departmental skills matrix, and point it out at the yearly review.
Brown and Boris said:
So, my question is: should you be paid more for doing the 'good citizen' stuff like trying to improve the way things are done at work?
The problem is though that a lot of companies will start to take the piss if you "volunteer" to take on additional responsibilities or put yourself out for the benefit of the company. IME the larger the company the worse this. Also, I don't think that large organisations have any loyalty to their workforce these days - I've seen too many people who have put their careers first, over their home life, who have later been shafted good and proper by their employer.Edited by Brown and Boris on Monday 19th January 11:04
Its not about the ammount of hours you do, its what you do when you're at work that counts. I'm fed up with guys in the office saying they work extra hours and so should get pay rises yet spend half the day outside having a fag or "forced breaks" due to some health and safety bks they have on their pc which stops them working when they have typed a certain ammount. Glad my boss sees it that way as well.
ks they have on their pc which stops them working when they have typed a certain ammount. Glad my boss sees it that way as well. Christ Allmighty. Theres an awful lot of people here who profess to be "doing the extra mile", on pistonheads, in the middle of the day. At least I have enough self awareness to admit I'm a lazy .
Yeah, yeah. I look forward to all the "I'm on my lunch hour" replies from people with 30k posts.
.Yeah, yeah. I look forward to all the "I'm on my lunch hour" replies from people with 30k posts.
Geronimo said:
Christ Allmighty. Theres an awful lot of people here who profess to be "doing the extra mile", on pistonheads, in the middle of the day. At least I have enough self awareness to admit I'm a lazy .
Yeah, yeah. I look forward to all the "I'm on my lunch hour" replies from people with 30k posts.
On PH everyone is independently wealthy .Yeah, yeah. I look forward to all the "I'm on my lunch hour" replies from people with 30k posts.
Brown and Boris said:
I know that in a job grading sense people expect more money when they do extra stuff, but i have trouble getting my head around the attitude that says that if you don't pay me, I won't do anything except the bare minimum I am paid for. And I don't confine that view to lower level jobs. I have always presumed that if I can see something that needs doing (liking taking responsibility for organising some training or taking responsibility for a system that is in a mess), that is all part of the job.
Recently I have worked with so called 'professionals', who frankly want paying more for any extra responsibility, including any attempt to improve the impact of their work. It seems that as long as their performance management says they are doing an OK job and can't be sacked, thereafter they want paying more to arrange some training, set up a new system, review a policy or look for ideas about how to do things better.
I think that this is an almost fool proof way to avoid ever being promoted if you're a perm or to learn new things regardless of whether you're a perm or a temp.Recently I have worked with so called 'professionals', who frankly want paying more for any extra responsibility, including any attempt to improve the impact of their work. It seems that as long as their performance management says they are doing an OK job and can't be sacked, thereafter they want paying more to arrange some training, set up a new system, review a policy or look for ideas about how to do things better.
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